Posted this over in the fueling section but no response. I figure this section will have more people who know what I'm looking for:I need advice on what I need to buy that is PROVEN to work with what I have and want.
I have:
1985 Camaro z28 with 1999 Trans am fuel tank
2006 lq4/4l80e with summit stage 3 turbo cam and matching valvesprings.
tbss intake manifold with dbw ls3 throttle body
Holley terminator x max 24x ev1 style harness
twin gt3582 turbochargers
will be 2 in 1 out a2a treadstone intercooler but plan to change to a2w once i swap intakes to a high-rise holley (far into the future)

What I want:
Bosch 210 injectors (for tbss intake)
-8AN fuel rails to pair injectors to intake (no risky fuel leaks under extreme fuel pressure)
Dual walbro 450's in tank, one activated by terminator
>800whp at full boost on e85, >600whp on 93
dual 44mm piston wastegates (or would 50s be better to control boost on these 3582s?)

Im looking for an actual proven parts list, links, suggestions, etc. Don't want to burn this thing down. Any help is much appreciated.

 

1) Bosch 210's are WAY more injector than you need for 800whp on e85. Running something that big will make it all the more difficult to control fueling at idle and cruise. I would recommend something in the ~1300cc/min range instead.
2) If you are going to run staged fuel pumps that are both 450lph, you need a very capable regulator to avoid having a bump in fuel pressure when the second one clicks on. Buy a GOOD quality regulator, not some cheap eBay crap.
3) Running dual 50mm wastegates will give you better control at lower boost levels.
4) 5/8" ID rails (-8an) are fairly standard now. If you feed each one with its own -8an line and then link both rails to the regulator, you should be fine. You'll probably want a -10an feed line from the tank that splits into the two -8an right before the rail if you plan for >1000whp in the future. Otherwise, a single -8an from the tank should be OK at 800whp.

 

thanks turbolx.
1)i agree the bosch 210's are on the large size, but so many ppl have had success with them and their price keeps me in my 'wife happy' range. by difficult to control at idle, does that mean the terminator system itself has trouble chasing idle or it just means more tuning time to get them dialed in? does raising/lowering the base fuel pressure help big injectors to idle? this will be paired with a 3200ish stall 4l80e, so i know in drive the idle parameters will have to change vs park/neutral.
2)i do plan to run staged pumps since this will be a street/strip car that will be making trips to the cruise ins as well as track days. can you give a good recommendation on a 'very capable regulator'? i was looking at one on a sponsors site and, while generic looking, the description fits the bill and its made by a reputable company, for about 100 or so dollars.
3)the 50mm wastegates do seem to offer better control with my baby turbos. are the new piston style wastegates more reliable/less maintenance than diaphragm units? enough to justify the cost difference?
4)so fuel rails....this is the part that has been baking my noodle. i want to find a set of off the shelf rails that will bolt to my tbss intake, support the bosch 210s (preferably without the extension caps), enough height to run the required filter screens pre-injector, -8AN sizes, with correct brackets to bolt them down so they dont flex or lift up and spray fuel everywhere.
As i am on a stock bottom end and trying to basically get the car running and driving for tuning and working out little kinks, i would be thrilled to make over 800whp with these little gt3582s. anything more than that would just be icing on the cake. later id like to move up to bigger and better things, so with a fuel system i can grow with, that would just be money and time i dont have to spend later on. Staged dual 450's pushing through a -8AN supply through the rear of driver side rail, under the throttle body crossover, thru passenger rail up front, and exit at the rear into the 'very capable regulator', returning back to the tank via -8AN return line (with E85 sensor) would be able to do that right? or am i missing something? thanks again.

 

I have done what you are trying to do several times. Here’s my .02.

1.) 210’s all the way. They are the cheapest HI-Z “big injector” that works well. They will idle pump gas fine. Zero reason not to go with them. Also, they allow you to run lower fuel pressures which will allow your fuel pumps to go farther. If you decide to keep the intank pumps (I wouldn’t). You’ll find they don’t put out near their rated specs, esp. at pressure. With 450 intank pumps, I’d keep your base fuel pressure around 35 base. (that’s with the vac hooked up to regulator. This will keep your peak fuel system pressure down while in boost which helps a lot with the 450 intank pumps. If you run the standard 58psi base and then add 20lbs of boost the pumps really struggle to pump volume at 78psi of head pressure. Personally I’d run an external inline pump like the AEM400’s. MUCH easier to work on and replace… they also do much better with pressure. I’d stage them.

2.) for the FPR you want ½” ports. The Mallory regulators wer ethe cheapest I found. I’ve used them on 4 builds now and never had an issue. The other more economical option. They did change the PN and the price went up on these recently. They use to be $150. Not sure if they are better or worse than they were.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...SABEgKOIfD_BwE

3.) You absolutely don’t need -8 fuel rails. You can run OEM rails. They are actually better IMO as they have clips on each injector and fasten better than most “performance rails”. I’ve run the OEM rails on E85 well past your goals. I even run the ones without the return. I run the regulator/return back at the fuel tank. This way the fuel doesn’t heat up as much. Then run a single -8 or -10 to the OEM rail with one of the russel or similar AN adapters for the factory rail. -8 is 1/2" ID not 5/8 as mentioned above.

4.) you don’t need 50mm gates. That’s ridiculous. I’ve run 38mm gates on all my builds and never had a boost control issue. Place them correctly and 2 38mm gates are plenty! With those tiny gt35’s on a relatively large motor you will have decent back pressure. The more drive pressure have the less WG you need. As an extreme example I have twin 78/75’s with .96 T4’s on my 5.3. I’m less than 1:1 most of the run on my setup and 38mm gates still keep boost in check easily.

5.) your E85 sensor is an issue as the ID of the sensor is 3/8… or a bit smaller. You don’t want an e85 sensor on the return either. You want it to have a constant flow through it or the E85% changes… and so does your tune. What you should do is buy one of the parallel ”y” kits for the sensor and put it on the supply line, not the return. I’ve gone through all that nonsense as well. Yes, some people put it on the return… but its not right and can cause big issues.

6.) Lastly I don’t want to burst your bubble too much but gt35’s are too small for an 800whp 6.0 IMO. I’m sure we’ve all seen the holdner videos and been caught up in the dyno number BS. But in real world applications with a motor in a car and WHP figures… The GT35’s choke before 800whp in my experience. And that’s on a 5.3 with upgraded 64mm billet wheel gt35’s. I’m not saying you can’t lean on them and make 800whp. But they stop making great power per pound before 800whp in my experience. You would be over spinning them and running excessive backpressure to hit big numbers. I’d run units with a larger hot-side. 65mm exh. wheels minimum.

 

I'm running dual 46mm PTE WGs on my single turbo 5.3 and it's bit overkill. I just went with those in case I go with a bigger turbo than the 85mm I have now.

 

These are all great answers. please keep the information flowing!
1) would the AEM 400s do well for street driving, being that they would be external mounted? Ive heard of issues where they overheat.
2)so the mallory fuel pressure regulator would be considered a reliable good quality one. got it.
3)i do not have any rails for my TBSS intake. bought it bare, but brand new. thats why im asking about quality rails that will fit the intake AND work well with the Bosch 210s. What length 210s would work? im seeing 2 different lengths on them from VSRacing. A factory tbss fuel rail does not have a return, correct? what kind of issues are seen with dead-heading the rails when both pumps are running and you let off the throttle? would this cause a big momentary restriction through the injectors closing and the fuel pressure still being high? maybe im just overthinking it.
4)so i cant really go wrong with wastegate size then. i do plan to use a 4 port mac valve to control them, but for now they will be manifold referenced with weak springs. i want to creep up on the tune so i dont break something before i get to enjoy it lol.
5)been looking at the parallel e85 kits. guess its one of those necessary evils, since no one makes a sensor for a -8AN line.
6)i know the baby 3582s are small. they were originally purchased for a gen 3 4.8 i was building, but then the 62k mile 6.0 fell into my lap. i switched all my parts over to it and bought some btr ls9 headgaskets, gapped the rings, and stuck it in the car. later, i will be switching to larger turbos and a high-rise intake. for now, hood clearance is an issue and there arent many good looking hoods for 3rd gen camaros as it is. i had surgery on my back after being hospitalized for covid for 3 months, and i want to get the car running so i can enjoy it. if it makes 800, great. if it doesnt, great. been working on this car as much as i can by myself and i just want to see my dream come to fruition.

 

Not sure where that rumor came from, I’ve run a dozen of them or so… no real issues. I did overvolt one to 16v and it started making noise. Still pumped, but I feel like they don’t appreciate lots of voltage. They are a beefed up Bosch 044 pump for the most part. That is one of the most reliable pumps you can buy. Not saying AEM400’s are as reliable, but for a performance pump they have been great.

There are no issues with dead heading the pumps as long as the pump can keep a constant pressure/flow. Its just like the OEM setup. The return is in the rear pressure is regulated there, there is no noticeable difference in my experience. Usually you’d want the longer 210’s for factory style rails. I’d buy a factory rail over aftermarket junk. The cheap stuff doesn’t seal well and is a fire waiting to happen. If you buy aftermarket, buy a decent setup. Nothing will be “bolt on” like factory though. You’ll have to play around with mounting.

There is nothing a 4 port can do that a 3 port can’t for the novice tuner. You may have slightly better resolution with a 4 port… but that’s not needed for a weekend warrior. Your minimum and maximum boost will be the same with a 3 or a 4 port. The 3 port is cheaper, so that’s what I use.

AS far as the parallel kits go, you are only limited by your own ability. Can always buy some barb “y” fittings or AN fittings and build your own if you don’t want to pay “kit prices”.

 

how would i go about mounting 2 external 400s, coming out of a 99 plastic tank? never really considered going external. any diagrams or special fitting designed for such? how would it pull from the tank?
i may go ahead and do the deadhead system if i can find a good factory fuel rail with the clips you mentioned.
anyone have any tuning advice or woes for using the 210s with the terminator x max?
i already have the 4 port mac that i bought (used), and i figured with twins, each wastegate would have its own port. honestly i dont know much about how 3vs4 valve works.
how close should i mount the e85 sensor to the rails? i may have enough room up beside the transmission (probably not....that 4l80e is massive in the tiny 3rd gen tunnel) or i may have to put it up by the firewall.
i have never used PTFE hose or even built an AN style fuel system so this will be a learning curve for me.

 

A lot of different ways to do it.

The AEM’s 400’s can be submerged in a tank as well. But that defeats the purpose a bit IMO. I like them out where I can replace them if needed.

Can also drill and tap the tank. Its super common with the supercharger kits on the vettes. Just make sure to use an e85 compatible sealant on the threads.

Can also go the surge tank route but it’s a bit more involved. I bought a new factory tank and oem pump super cheap. On my mustang. I then used that to fill a surge tank in the trunk. Also put my E85 content sensor inline with that small pump that’s only job is to fill the surge tank. Then had my dual aem400’s in the surge tank. That way you don’t have to sump the OEM pump and your oem fuel gauge and filler work.

This was mine… It has the regulator, e85 sensor, and fuel pressure sensor all built into a nice little package. One supply line going to the rail is all.




Something like this works too.





Nothing wrong with a 4-port, they work great too. I just see a lot of people thinking they “need” one over a 3-port.

I would put the sensor before the rail. That was it always has pressure. Need to build something to run it in parallel is all.

 

In tank pumps fail less than externally mounted in my experience on road race courses.
The pumps get better cooled by the fuel and don't cavitate as easy YMMV.
On the street I would go in tank just to kill the noise..

 

Have you had AEM400 pumps overheat? Feel like a lot of that comes from garbage pumps like the older A1000 Aeromotive units. A Bosch 044 inline is one of the most reliable pumps you can buy. They got awards for the thing. The fuel going through the pump cools it as well. Don’t get me wrong, having it sit in the tank helps more, but Its not needed for a reliable pump IMO. I see the AEM as a knock off clone of the 044. Likely made cheaply and not as good, buuut pretty damn close design wise. A rubber pump mounted 044 with a some rubber isolators is quiet enough I can’t hear it in my hotrod. But I admit the ridged mounted surge tank was a little noisy in the mustang trunk. I’d put that on rubber isolators If I were to do it again.

 

ok so maybe if i go dual AEM400s i can mount them in the tank since i already have the trapdoor cut above the fuel tank. so where you have the regulator located, near the tank, do you run a vacuum line from the engine to the regulator at the rear? i imagine the regulator is T'd off the main line and acts as a wastegate, simply returning the fuel before it travels the length of the vehicle? how demanding on the electrical system is it to run 3 pumps like with the surge tank?
anyone have a tbss fuel rail for sale? id like to keep this as simple as possible.
with the terminator 24x dbw system, can i run the ls3 dbw throttle body? have the 2nd pump staged to come on at low boost or maybe by tps%? this is my first holley system as well as turbo.

 

"In case" lol.

 

I run dual 450's currently in my pump gas car and they are actually quieter than the 255's they replaced.

 

how do you have the 450s set up? can they fit in the stock pump bucket? i know it takes some cutting off the bottom of the bucket. i have seen the 2 in 1 450 kit online somewhere but was concerned about the entire assembly being made of plastic and the tube and Y fitting didnt seem very sturdy. i have a single 255 in my 4th gen and its quite a bit louder than i expected, even submerged in a full tank of gas. i have a feeling that pump is going out, but thats a topic for a different discussion.

 

They will fit in the bucket decently, just gotta spend a little time trimming and test fitting.
Going back in the tank is very snug but can be done, to be clear twin 450's for pump 91 is serious over kill but they were genuine Walbro units on a killer sale, plus I didn't want to run out of fuel ever again.
I was surprised how quiet they are, just make sure you're wiring will support the additional amp load they need as well.
Also make sure to use specific submersible high pressure EFI fuel hose, ask me why lol.

 

man that does look snug lol. how do the pumps do being T'd together like that?
will be rewiring the whole car since im moving the battery to the spare tire area. i have a 160amp alternator and will have a dedicated relay/fuse block for the rear that i will be installing. figured i might as well set that up since eventually i want to run A2W and the reservoir will be in the back. trying to make this as stock looking as possible except for the mickey thompsons and fender exit exhaust.

 

1) The 210s have a fair amount of nonlinear behavior at very short pulse widths. With proper characterization data, we can account for this in the GM ECU with the "short pulse adder" table. Most standalones (Like the Holley) have no way to account for this, so you are forced to screw up VE surface in several places (idle, cruise) as a result of the nonlinear injector response. Injectors that are more linear make tuning much more consistent in these simpler ECU control strategies. Also, a lower flow rate injector will have a slightly larger pulse width that "spreads out" the fuel delivery at idle rather than delivering a "slug" of fuel to the port that may have trouble evaporating and burning clean.

3) Most aftermarket rails are 5/8" ID now, but they usually have a -8ORB thread on the end. There is no issue feeding each one with a -8AN line (1/2"). It's just nice to have a little extra internal volume so that individual pulses are better absorbed.

6) The larger the turbine (or higher numerical A/r), the less it needs to divert to the wastegate when trying to control boost. If the turbine is on the small side, you will need more wastegate flow to avoid excessive backpressure and boost creep. Running small-ish turbines is not the most efficient way to go, but it certainly can work.

I have seen people make ~800hp on the GT30's that came with the base C5/C6 APS kits and 1000hp with the GT35's in the Z06 kit. You actually have a decent amount of turbo(s) there.

 

all these answers are great and really giving me some better ideas about how i should do this! lets keep it going!
How does one plug all the evap holes and stuff in the intake manifold? what MAP sensor do i need and how does it install with the intake? bought a zr1 MAP and it doesnt fit...
Really wish all you guys lived closer so i could get other sets of eyes on this lolol

 

So I ran twin 255's before this with 1000cc FIC injectors, -06AN feed / -06AN return, AM rails and BRFPR, at only 10 lbs. of boost my IDC was getting into the mid to high 70% actually touching 80% once which seemed wrong.
Installed the twin 450's and -08AN feed, same -06AN return and now its in the high 50 low 60% range at same boost so I'm definitely getting the fuel I need now.
Ideally, I'd like to replace the hat all together with one of Chris1313's units with a dedicated -08 feed but if my fueling keeps up then why bother.