Questions about timing table
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,584
Likes: 374
From: Armstrong BC
Do you have a very large stall converter? Does the turbo only spool at high rpm?
These two things could reduce load on the engine and allow for more than normal timing, and have you confirmed your timing yet with a timing light?
As others have said, timing just seems very aggressive
These two things could reduce load on the engine and allow for more than normal timing, and have you confirmed your timing yet with a timing light?
As others have said, timing just seems very aggressive
This tune is interesting to look at...
On one hand there is way too much timing in it and it makes me question everything else about it, but then I at least see some safeties in it and an advanced IEA table and say to myself OK maybe whoever did it actually knows what they are doing to a certain degree. Not sure if this has any knock sensors on it but they aren't set with the correct values or even enabled in the tune and probably should be.
It makes me wonder if the reluctor wheel is off a bit and they are compensating in the main timing table. Just as an example we had a naturally aspirated car come in with a Holley a few weeks back and it didn't have a pointer or anything like that to be able to quickly verify timing, but I kept adding timing and it kept picking up all the way up to 34 degrees. Now anybody who has tuned any LS motor knows there is no way it's going to continually pick up power up to or past 34 degrees so the wheel had to be off by ~6-7 degrees, but if anybody pulls the tune out of that Holley they are going to ****.
On one hand there is way too much timing in it and it makes me question everything else about it, but then I at least see some safeties in it and an advanced IEA table and say to myself OK maybe whoever did it actually knows what they are doing to a certain degree. Not sure if this has any knock sensors on it but they aren't set with the correct values or even enabled in the tune and probably should be.
It makes me wonder if the reluctor wheel is off a bit and they are compensating in the main timing table. Just as an example we had a naturally aspirated car come in with a Holley a few weeks back and it didn't have a pointer or anything like that to be able to quickly verify timing, but I kept adding timing and it kept picking up all the way up to 34 degrees. Now anybody who has tuned any LS motor knows there is no way it's going to continually pick up power up to or past 34 degrees so the wheel had to be off by ~6-7 degrees, but if anybody pulls the tune out of that Holley they are going to ****.
I do want to got back to the point about timing at idle and cruise. One of my tuners talked about how turbo combos are lazy and he's one of the folks who's added timing to the tune for those driving scenarios. One of the guys I get a lot of advice from is very involved in a mid 8 second DnD Nova, and he's tried as much as 41 timing on E85 cruising. Has literally sat in the car riding shotgun changing values around to see what happens with coolant temps, and fuel economy. One takeway is E85 cars would run more timing at idle and cruise than pump 83 combos.
I do want to got back to the point about timing at idle and cruise. One of my tuners talked about how turbo combos are lazy and he's one of the folks who's added timing to the tune for those driving scenarios. One of the guys I get a lot of advice from is very involved in a mid 8 second DnD Nova, and he's tried as much as 41 timing on E85 cruising. Has literally sat in the car riding shotgun changing values around to see what happens with coolant temps, and fuel economy. One takeway is E85 cars would run more timing at idle and cruise than pump 83 combos.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,584
Likes: 374
From: Armstrong BC
This tune is interesting to look at...
On one hand there is way too much timing in it and it makes me question everything else about it, but then I at least see some safeties in it and an advanced IEA table and say to myself OK maybe whoever did it actually knows what they are doing to a certain degree. Not sure if this has any knock sensors on it but they aren't set with the correct values or even enabled in the tune and probably should be.
It makes me wonder if the reluctor wheel is off a bit and they are compensating in the main timing table. Just as an example we had a naturally aspirated car come in with a Holley a few weeks back and it didn't have a pointer or anything like that to be able to quickly verify timing, but I kept adding timing and it kept picking up all the way up to 34 degrees. Now anybody who has tuned any LS motor knows there is no way it's going to continually pick up power up to or past 34 degrees so the wheel had to be off by ~6-7 degrees, but if anybody pulls the tune out of that Holley they are going to ****.
On one hand there is way too much timing in it and it makes me question everything else about it, but then I at least see some safeties in it and an advanced IEA table and say to myself OK maybe whoever did it actually knows what they are doing to a certain degree. Not sure if this has any knock sensors on it but they aren't set with the correct values or even enabled in the tune and probably should be.
It makes me wonder if the reluctor wheel is off a bit and they are compensating in the main timing table. Just as an example we had a naturally aspirated car come in with a Holley a few weeks back and it didn't have a pointer or anything like that to be able to quickly verify timing, but I kept adding timing and it kept picking up all the way up to 34 degrees. Now anybody who has tuned any LS motor knows there is no way it's going to continually pick up power up to or past 34 degrees so the wheel had to be off by ~6-7 degrees, but if anybody pulls the tune out of that Holley they are going to ****.
That's not true, E85 technically burns faster than pump gas and therefore you are actually a bit lower on timing at low throttle conditions to hit MBT. Now do most people pull any timing on E85 in those areas? No, and it's very very slight anyways and you probably wouldn't notice a difference.
The crankshaft is the factory GM forged LSA crank. Maybe the reluctor wheel was installed a bit off? There are no knock sensors installed yet I haven't gotten around to getting them on the side of the block but it's on the list of things to do. I'm also looking to get my own timing pointer on there just to be 100% sure. Looking at one of the datalogs at 14 psi it was showing 20* timing. It's not perfect and I would never claim it to be
At 10.6 to 1 and 20 psi I'm at 18 degree peak on E85 plus a small meth nozzle on at 4 psi plugs show I could add another degree without issue.
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Verdad Gallardo Just because it isn't pinging doesn't mean you should keep adding timing, you will end up past MBT and just beat up the bearings. If you look at many OEM flex fuel calibrations you will see where they actually remove timing in low load/airflow areas vs pump gas.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,584
Likes: 374
From: Armstrong BC
It's just pump 94 no ethanol. Sometimes I do mix it to around 102. I do have a water/meth tank and pump mounted in the back and nozzle bungs in the piping at the throttle body just haven't gotten around to doing the wiring or running the hose to the front
Oh I wasn't disagreeing with you in that statement, I was simply saying why I think it tends to happen.
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 12
Likes: 6
From: Western NY
The crankshaft is the factory GM forged LSA crank. Maybe the reluctor wheel was installed a bit off? There are no knock sensors installed yet I haven't gotten around to getting them on the side of the block but it's on the list of things to do. I'm also looking to get my own timing pointer on there just to be 100% sure. Looking at one of the datalogs at 14 psi it was showing 20* timing. It's not perfect and I would never claim it to be
All of the advance, whether it's 14° or 28°, is relative to that
The fuel table is very interesting for sure. It also have to much timing in it. Its worth checking the timing with a timing light. I had a 408 a few months ago that the reluctor wheel would move under load. I would set the timing, verify with a light on the dyno and do a pull. During the pull you could hear the engine tone change. You could check the timing again at idle at it would be off. Had to pull engine and get reluctor welded and it fixed it.
TECH Addict
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 627
From: Florida
The fuel table is very interesting for sure. It also have to much timing in it. Its worth checking the timing with a timing light. I had a 408 a few months ago that the reluctor wheel would move under load. I would set the timing, verify with a light on the dyno and do a pull. During the pull you could hear the engine tone change. You could check the timing again at idle at it would be off. Had to pull engine and get reluctor welded and it fixed it.
have you seen 58x wheels move ?