Do you really need attention that badly? I’ll be happy to point out your mistakes. But you really should just quit talking.

I said the theory, jackass. As in that’s what people think! I can't count the number of kits that come in like this over the years. In fact, back in the early days this is how the instructions stated to install a dual nozzles setup. And you know what... it “worked” just fine!



If spraying into the airflow was superior, why is it not done with anything? meth inj, nitrous, fuel injection, rockets, lol... Its done in NOTHING. Stop trolling google docs and trying to argue. Again, go build something if you want to prove a point. Show me that facing the nozzle into the airstream VS with the air stream does does a damn thing at the dyno. Because it won't. Here is a good example of what happens in the pipe with typical kits.



The fact that you think the boiling point of a fluid isn't related to its ability to pull heat is reason enough for everyone to hit the ignore button and move on with their lives. The flashing point of the fluid injected is where the majority of the "work" of removing heat is accomplished. You aren't going to vaporize meth completely w sub 100* inlet temps in a pressurized pipe. Thinking you will is moronic. The video I posted shows a totally different style of nozzle that no kits use. Impingement nozzles are rated to like 3000psi! They flow VERY little and require very high pressures. Its comparing apples to oranges. You could setup a sonic humidifier or a nebulizer and get a perfect fog with great distribution. But it won't be enough MASS to do anything. Go ahead and get ANY of the nozzles on kits out there and replicate that video for us. I'll be waiting for it.




Glad you picked that video, because its total nonsense!

How does that video show anything exactly? There is SO much wrong with it! If anything, it proves my point. First off he doesn’t state how much fluid he is spraying and he is using their 50/50 water/meth mix. Snow dual nozzle kits come with #3 and #5 nozzle. Meaning the most he could be spraying is 8gph! And I don't think he even sprayed both nozzles. That’s NOTHING! There's no way he could be spraying enough fluid to drop temps down BELOW ambient. By his false logic (and yours) that would mean if he simply installed a direct port 1gph nozzle on each runner he would see the same gains he saw with an intercooler. That’s nonsense and completely impossible.

Its also nowhere near enough methanol when spraying 100% meth to get your AFR’s where they need to be to get “safe” distribution amounts to all the cyls. Again... poorly thought out test with poor results.

Holdner didn't run enough boost to do diddly either. It barely generated any heat! The intercooled vs meth inj temps are basically identical. Yet he is spraying a puny amounts of full of water/meth at a GIANT mass of air. There is no way that amount of fluid can cool that much air down BELOW ambient temps! There is also a ZERO percent chance he is changing the state of the water injecting into a gas with baby boost charge temps. Of course the probes are being wetted! And of course the first probe will have more fluid on it that the ones placed further down the runners! Its common sense! He doesn’t even list the temp splits per cyl.

The power loss had NOTHING to do with displacing air. That is completely ridiculous. Easily proven by Kevin Jewers results injecting over 15x the volume of meth on an engine less than half the size! Yet he saw zero losses and intercooler like performance GAINS when doing this pre turbo the correct way. And suddenly all those gains were gone when he went back to fueling 100% at the rail. By your logic, him spraying 126GPH he should have arctic charge temps and zero room in the cyl for an air charge. Yet charge temps were steady and hovered right around the boiling point of the fluid no matter how much more fluid was injected... Funny how that "theory" plays out in actual world testing.

Holdner saw $hit results because the charge temps weren't actually being cooled with the TINY amount of fluid injected, period! If he were to do the test correctly, spraying pre turbo and spraying at the correct volumes, he would see the appropriate power gains up to around 150* charge temps. That whole test was nonsense and so were his and your conclusions drawn from it.

 

I encourage you and your immediate circle to continue to build your cars around this principle.

In the meantime, if you could explain to me again why the charge pipe is frosty cold to the touch while the charge air is 100+ degrees - its just fascinating.

 

Happy to. Simple physics. The pipe is stationary. Air moving through it is not.
The fluid removes/pulls heat from the stationary charge pipe over time X amount of time. As the fluid passe by, it can remove more and more heat from the same object until it stabilizes. This cannot happen with the charge temps. as the air flowing through the pipe does not have repeat exposure over relatively long amounts of time.

Its why your carb'd intake manifolds are cold to the touch when you run alcohol or e85 in them. It doesn't mean your air charge traveling through them is the same temp.

 

On the one hand you say that the meth is not cooling the air, because obviously the mixture has far more air than meth. Yet you want to say that the piping is going to be cooled by the meth more than it would be heated by the air if this were true. At least one of those statements has to be false if the other is true. If the air were still that hot it would be transferring that heat to the piping at the same time the meth was trying to absorb heat. The net effect will be the piping trying to normalize to the temperature of the air/meth mix. The pipes can't choose to lose heat to cold meth and not absorb heat from hot air, therefore the pipes reflect the fact that the charge air is in fact being cooled much more than you believe.

 

Lol. Perfect.

 

Apologies for making a mess of your thread.

You'll still have distribution issues - just check your plugs. Even fully gasified the meth as a gas is about 12% denser than air and the density difference causes the gasses to stratify when you make the charge mixture change directions. There's no way around stratification - just have to have an intake that balances as best as possible with air (ie. BTR) and check your plugs. If it is an HP Tuner car, I run things a little rich to deal with intake stratification (like a 10.5 or 11.0).

If you are running 100% meth, you can put your nozzles across from each other. On my personal car, my methanol charge pipe injectors are pointed at eachother - its fine. If you can stagger them and the lack of symmetry doesn't make your eye twitch - even better.

 

Love the brain measuring contest going on in this thread.

OP: Yes, make a build thread!

 

I am sure there are errors in math/logic in the following so please point them out. The question I am asking is theoretically how much could 50/50 water methanol cool down the charge temp if completely evaporated. Assumptions have to be made so make adjustments as necessary. What you are saying does not make sense however I don't recall you getting specific with numbers as in temps so we may actually agree. The numbers I am using were after a google search so once again make adjustments as you see fit if they are wrong. Latent heat of vaporization of water=970 btu/lb(assumes 212 F start) meth=473 btu/lb 50/50 mix=721 btu/lb 6.0 engine engine at 6000 rpm/2=18000 liters of air moved=635.664 cubic feet 1 lb of air=(all kinds of assumptions of course)=13.0719 cubic feet and lastly .24 btu to raise 1 lb of air 1 degree F so...635.664 cubic feetx1lb/13.0719 cubic feetx.24 btu/lb-degree F=11.67 btu/degree F/minute of air for a 6.0 liter running normally aspirated at 6000 rpm. meth injection at 8 gallons/hour/60=.1333 gal/min density of water=62.416 lbs/cubic ft and 1cubic foot/7.48 gallons
.133x62.416/7.48=1.11 lbs of fluid 721.5 btu/lb x1.11 lbs=800 btu/min to evaporate all the liquid 800/11.67=68.62 degree F. At 15lbs of boost that is 34.31 degrees drop in intake air. That means if the intake is cold the charge temp is pretty warm. If you disagree with the numbers (who wouldn't) please show where the math is wrong.

 

The rough math looks pretty good. There would be another 80 or 90 btu per degree F of temp increase before the boiling point of the liquids, as I would hope nobody is injecting boiling hot fluid for charge cooling. And calculating 200% VE at 15psi is probably a vast overestimation for most combos. The only big problem I see is that an 8 gallon/hr nozzle is not enough for a large cooling effect. I would definitely not expect chilly pipes or manifold temps in your described scenario.

 

We seem to be over thinking this LOL.

 

Agreed. A few other adjustments.

- 8 gph is pretty low. Most people run 15+. The OP is running 2x 15 gph nozzles (ie. 30 gph) and the race folks can be much higher.
- Most spray post intercooler, so the starting charge temps at the beginning of the run (first 1000 rpm?) is closer to ambient or the heat soak temp just due to the mass of the intercooler before things heat up.
- The nozzles come on at something like 3,000 rpm and engine airflow is much lower while the nozzle flow can be pretty flat across the rpm range (ie. you get a pretty high % of meth at lower RPM).

If you do the numbers with the above adjustments you get something like the below:



You don't have to reduce the charge pipe temp that much below ambient before you hit the dew point (especially in humid areas) and you get that condensation buildup that people see on methanol car pipes and the cool-to-the-touch feeling. Add on a bigger W2A intercooler, or ice, or much more meth and its pretty easy to get actual frost on the charge pipes over a notable portion of the run.

 

Fortunately, I'm not after any cooling effects, just octane supplementation.
I'll be very curious to see how low my IAT's can get with the use of ice water and how that will affect the effectiveness of the methanol injection, hopefully in a positive way.
Something else I was wondering about, if the methanol can only supplement another say 150-200hp and I want more, would I install bigger pump gas injectors, or would that just be the limit?
Because technically I'm not stopping spraying pump gas, just a little less with the meth right so it wouldn't be just a solid hp number would it?
Does that make sense, or did I butcher that too badly lol?

 

You are mistaken, both are correct. Its all about time. Think of it in terms of pulling heat over time.

Take A stationary object at 100*. Now mist 1gph of methanol at it for 1 millisecond. How much heat is removed?

Take the same object at 100* and spray 1 gph at it for 10 seconds. How much heat is removed?

The fluid can "PULL" more heat over a longer period of time on a stationary object. LIke piping or an intake manifold.

Misting small amounts of fluid into an airstream is like the first example. The air is in an out of the engine in a blink. There is no time for the fluid to remove heat repeatedly. There is also not enough volume/mass of fluid to do much to the airstream temps as a whole when typical "water/meth Kits" are used.

 

I don't think this math is as relevant to charge temps as it would be to CC temps. Dropping CC temps and adding octane is going to assist with detonation (which is what most kits do anyway as they are all poor at charge coolers). But it will NEVER make power like a good intercooler would. Spraying massive amounts of methanol pre turbo specifically is the only way you are going to really see "intercooler-like" effects. Even then there is a cap to the charge cooling dictated by the fluid injected.

When looking at charge temps, you have to look at the phase change points of the fluid being injected. Water and meth are totally different fluids and would need to be calculated differently. Water can pull more heat than any other fluid BTU wise. So why doesn't it make the best charge cooler? Because it doesn't change phases and due real work till 212*! (actually more than 212* depending on boost pressure). Because of this, it makes a poor "charge cooler". Even though it is the best fluid at pulling heat/BTU's per unit of mass.

Methanol is specifically used as a charge cooler because of its low boiling point. But it can only do so much. Since we know exactly how much methanol is needed to cool 1000CHP worth of airflow down to 150*ish. We can extract all we need from that data. And depending on how high your charge temps were, you can calculate how much water to use (if any) and how much methanol to use to have the most efficient setup.

Spraying post turbo as the OP is, won't do much for charge cooling or power production by itself. It will simply allow more boost without detonation on the fuel he is using.

We know from Kevins repeated testing that 8gph drops 15* (roughly) off the charge temps at 100lbs/min of airflow. The amount of cooling is inversely proportional to airflow. So Dropping the airflow down to 50lbs/min the same 8gph dropped temps 30*.

So you would either use existing data or use a charge temp calculator to see your max air charge temps. Then using the info above, calculate how much fluid is necessary to bring those charge temps down to 150*.

That will theoretically be your ideal amount of fluid to inject for charge cooling purposes.

 

It does change phases as it passes the nozzle. I think you're missing an important concept of nozzles. You seem to understand that the evaporation temperature of stuff increases as the pressure increases. So, I'm assuming you also understand the concept that the evaporation temperature decreases as you reduce the pressure of a fluid. If you reduce the pressure of water far enough you can get it to boil at room temperature.

A nozzle accelerates a fluid as fast as it can. As you accelerate the fluid, the pressure of the fluid drops (it's a non-intuitive effect called Bernoulli's principle). As such, if you accelerate any fluid fast enough through a nozzle, you can get the pressure to drop to the point where the fluid vaporizes despite being at a temperature where the fluid would not normally evaporate. If you design the nozzle properly and push with enough pressure you can get a very high percentage of water to try to vaporize (ie. 80%) at relatively low pressures (~100 psi). To get 99.9% water to vaporize you need to push 1,000 to 2,000 psi. However, due to meths low evaporation temperature, relatively low nozzle pressures result in nearly all of the methanol evaporating.

As such, you can use water and other things that don't normally boil as a cooling medium well below 212 deg F (or whatever the temp is on the steam table).

 

A couple of M15 nozzles (~25% meth) should support about 125 HP (ballpark) before you need to go to an additional nozzle or add more fuel pump. After that, you'll have to pick a route to keep going up. You could add more meth with an additional nozzle (say 3x M15's). I think most of the meth industry has moved to rebadged 58X4 DDP Aquatec pumps (http://www.aquatec.com/documents/dow...01.5%20GPM.pdf). Should be able to flow up to ~60 gph, so you should have plenty of meth system left if you wanted to go that way.



Personally, I would keep the 2x M15 setup and add more fuel pump/injector if you want to keep going up in HP. Its a little safer having a motor that doesn't lean on the meth system so much and you'll avoid getting into distribution issues if you happen to have a setup where that is an issue.

 

You aren’t reducing the temp of the fluid enough to boil it instantly as it exits the nozzle with the kits we are specifically discussing. This is easily seen by the sensor wetting. The fact that I can change my indicated “charge cooling” by simply moving the injection point closed or farther from the IAT probe. If injecting a typical 50/50 mixture. Pull a charge tube after a pull on the dyno. It is completely covered in fluid. So is the probe. You can clearly see this in the video posted above. When the TB is closed you see a TON of fluid being forced out the surge ports on the turbo.

Put a solid 3000psi behind a very special nozzle and you may actually produce a true fog with enough volume to be useful. But its 100% not happening with the kits we are talking about. So your point is completely irrelevant.

Google theories with no practical experience are useless. Link all the google graphs you want. Common sense goes a LONG way. You start many of your sentences with “IF”. IF you accelerate a fluid fast enough (we aren’t accelerating the fluid fast enough.) IF you design a nozzle “properly” (the nozzles we are discussing are NOT designed to do what you are suggesting.). What you are claiming is not possible with simple water/meth kits. If it were, we’d all ditch the heavy restrictive intercoolers and put a dinky little water/meth kit on instead.

Water/meth inj is more like a race fuel than an intercooler. Higher octane fuel isn’t going to make power by itself. It will just allow you to run more boost. Or timing if needed.

Look at the WWII water injection papers by Frank Webber if you get a chance. They injected gallons per minute into those 2800 wasp engines. They were able to run almost 3x the amount of boost they normally ran at near stoich airfuel ratios with no detonation. They would literally dump gallons of water out the tail pipes when running on the test stands. The fluid did not cause performance losses due to it displacing air as you claim. It simply removed massive amounts of heat from combustion. And even then, much of the water did not vaporize and was pouring out the exhaust.

In ALL the water injection papers the phase change is taking place in the COMBUSTION CHAMBER… Not in the charge piping. This slows or stops combustion from rushing to sharp peaks and prevents detonation. Which allows you to run more boost and/or peak TQ timing levels. It DOES NOT provide intercooler like performance benefits making additional power per pound. At least not to a meaningful measurable amount on typical water/meth kits we are discussing.

 

I won't be adding another nozzle or making any changes to this kit, I've pretty much decided that this combo is going to make whatever its going to make.
As for fuel supply, that's what I was hoping for, I'm covered on the feed side, I just put in duel 450 pumps and a -08AN feed so plenty there.
I currently have 1000cc injectors that at 14 lbs. last hit I made were at about 70% IDC give or take a few percent.
The FIC injector calculator indicates that these injectors at 45psi base pressure and 90% IDC (max recommended) should be good to 1,162chp and almost 988whp with gasoline.
If I hedge my bets and they're good to say 850-900whp and then add the meth, that should be enough fuel to support 25 lbs. of boost assuming 25lbs. should make somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,100chp realistically, I think.
If I could not change anything in the fuel system and make 900whp with the meth at 25 lbs. I'd be content with this configuration for a while.

 

That's not why your charge temperature moves. You are just moving the goal posts at this point and now we're citing WW2 papers that I need to read? I don't think you are going to get there.

You put up a lot of good practical information on this site but you aren't correct here - sorry.

 

This thread has turned into a dick measuring contest