Good morning fellow meth heads,
So, I did a thing this weekend, I ordered a full tilt Alky Controls methanol injection kit with all the bells and whistles.
The kit consists of a 2 Gal. cell w/ level sensor and billet cap, high pressure pump, harness and lines, twin M15 nozzles w/ 2.5 bar MAP and progressive controller w/ pressure switch.
Just for a reference, Julio at AC uses this same kit on his personal car running a 348ci engine, 88mm turbo at 28 lbs. of boost and 20* of timing so a very similar application.
I will be tying the pressure switch into my Cortex EBC so if it doesn't see meth system pressure, then boost will be limited to gate pressure which is about 6-7 lbs.

The car is currently tuned for 91 pump gas at 14 lbs. of boost w/ a Lambda of .75 using the factory ECU and HP Tuners.
At this time, I will continue to use 91 pump gas exclusively with the meth kit spraying 100% methanol.
My goal is to get into the 20lb. range with maybe a scramble button option or hero 25-28lb. setting, no rwhp goal, it'll make what it will make.
Julio gave me a couple options for nozzle location, one being right below the bend in the intake pipe on the passenger side where the pipe comes up through the core support (this would be pre IAT sensor) and the other being right in front of the TB with the nozzles in the silicone coupler (this location would be post IAT)
I like the first location because I can hide the nozzles better and possibly use the RIFE IAT sensor to pull fuel and advance timing when the meth is spraying but some suggest the second location and not "wetting" the IAT sensor, would love some feedback from actual users on this topic.
Current IAT's are very low so I don't need the IAT reduction aspect just the added fueling, typical IAT's are 90 to 105 degrees F on a full pull with the A2W pump running with ambient water, ice water will be used when the meth is being used in the 20+ lbs. range.
Timing is currently 12-12.5 degrees from 5,000 rpm all the way to 7,500 rpm so plenty safe, I'm imagining I may need more lead when really leaning on this kit.
Plugs are BR7EF gapped at .022" iirc.

So, with that all said, which nozzle location would you guys recommend and why?
It sounds like some guys wet the IAT and use the PE table to adjust AFR and also add timing, I'm using a RIFE fast acting IAT, so this method appeals to me unless someone advises otherwise while others spray post IAT and use the VE table?

What is the recommended process for tuning with 100% meth using HP Tuners?
I did some reading, and it sounds like you start spraying, and begin pulling fuel to reach the desired safe AFR.
If its rich, can I just start adding boost until the AFR gets in line, then add more meth if the desired boost level has not yet been reached?
Would I only adjust the cells in the VE table (or PE table?) with a negative reading indicating the ECU pulling fuel and adjust until I'm back to .75 lambda?
Then once fueling is set, start adding timing and reading plugs or looking for knock?

Any help as always is greatly appreciated; the kit should be here by the end of the week with install taking place over the next couple months.

 

I personally pull out fuel in the PE table for meth injection so it doesn't skew the torque and airflow readings. Not as important if it's a TH400 obviously but it keeps everything else accurate. I also am not a fan of spraying the IAT sensor on a speed density application as that skews it rich to begin with, then you have to pull out even more fuel for the meth. Of course that means you can't use the IAT tables to add/remove timing when it's spraying but even the fast acting sensor has a lag to it that I wouldn't rely on.

What is your compression ratio? If you are already at 14 psi on 91 oct I assume it's lower than stock.

 

I can't say what it is unfortunately, but the engine does have a slightly dished forged piston and 317 heads so I'm guessing probably around 9:1 or 9.5:1?
I've run it up as high as 15.5 lbs. and no knock was recorded in HP Tuners.
So, you prefer to place the nozzles closest to the TB then, post IAT sensor.
If I don't use the IAT to add/subtract timing, I would then need a separate tune for using meth because if I add timing when using meth but am running pump gas only on a lower boost setting, I will damage the engine correct?
This isn't a huge problem since running meth will require some preparation anyways so swapping in a different tune isn't pivotal.

 

If I'm running meth it's run 100% of the time regardless of boost level, etc so I don't change tunes and yes I would put the nozzles up by the throttle body. At that compression you will probably be fine to run it up to low 20ish psi or so but it's still playing with fire in my opinion. Meth injection can make up for a lot of deficiencies with 91 octane but at the end of the day that 91 is still pretty volatile. Yes some people get away with really cranking it up, but I see all of the time where people don't because they got a **** tank of 91.

 

My other thought was that if I'm really going to lean on it in the 20+lb. range that I would throw 5 gal. race gas in the tank for safety.
I've been buying my fuel from the same station for decades and so far, so good so there isn't much I can do about that.
I'm also not against just keeping the timing low and adding boost only provided the meth isn't blowing out the spark.
Just because others get away with 20* doesn't mean I will lol.
I think the guys adding timing are not adding boost and just trying to make more power at a fixed peak boost number, I could be wrong.

 

I'm self taught on hp tuners so take what I say as FWIW lol, if you're VE table is and has been good up till now I would be adjusting fuel with the PE and BE tables . Probably start with asking Julio about settings on the progressive controller ( mines simple on/off ) then like you said do pulls with logs and adjust carefully until you are happy - good afr and no kr . You can still pull timing from high IAT weather or not you are wetting the sensor , logs would tell you where to start pulling. Wetting the sensor with your already fairly cool IAT may drop the reading quite a bit and cause an overly rich AFR which could make getting the AFR right a bit more difficult. My AFR stays pretty consistent in or out of boost but I don't have A to W or a rife sensor , I spray about 10 g/hr pre TB and sensor and 5 pre turbo . Hope this helps a tiny bit

 

I run 91 octane in mine too my engine is 9.3:1 CR, 20 psi @11-12* timing. I have an AEM v3 kit progressive controller dual nozzle spraying 2000cc of boost juice starts spraying at 6 psi and all in by 15 psi my nozzles are about 18 inches from the TB but before the IAT sensor. Holley Dominator ecu with NTK wideband o2. Plugs are BR7EF @ .026". It's been working great so far for me I just had the heads off to install Johnson lifters and everything looked mint.

 

Excellent, I'm right down in Tacoma, WA so we're both running the same crappy fuel lol.
Have you ever gone higher than 20psi?

 

LOL yea same crappy fuel. No I didn't get the chance to go beyond that yet. I had another failing racetronix pump that dropped pressure as more load came on. Got that all fixed with 2 new Walbro 350 pumps but it's been raining here for the last couple weeks so the car will be in bed until spring now. I'll creep past 20 right away in the spring I have internal logging setup to start once I go past 16 psi. Checking plugs it looks like I could put a bit more timing but it's hard to tell being that it's a street driven car.

 

1st location. Put the nozzle upstream of the IAT. Wetting the IAT is not an issue. You want the actual IAT reading if you are running speed density.

Do the first run with meth and your normal tune. It will be fat. From there, pull fuel until you are where you want the A/F. If your VE table is spot on, I would use your PE table, but either place (VE or PE) works fine. Use your IAT to pull timing in the event the meth pump fails - which will happen unless you are using something to monitor current/pressure/flow/etc... Rule of thumb it is about 1 to 1.5 deg F inlet charge drop per GPH of meth. So, you can use that to crush your timing when the meth pump fails.

It depends on how much meth you are going to run, but if you are going some form of progressive, you should be able to run 20+ gph without a low-end bog - and at that level, I wouldn't worry about running 20-25 psi on 91 octane.

 

Excellent, that is the way I was leaning as well.
Honestly, I don't even know that it will actually wet the IAT, that location is probably two feet upstream of the IAT so the meth may very well be evaporated into the airstream by then.
Question, why not just add boost instead of pulling fuel, wouldn't adding more boost lean out the mixture?
I wouldn't imagine I'd be adding any fuel via the tune and just continue adding meth via the progressive controller as boost goes up until I can't add anymore?
Forgive me if my questions are silly, I want to learn the ins and outs of how these systems operate and this is all completely new to me and a little intimidating if I'm honest lol.
With this setup I'll have three safeguards in place with the IAT pulling timing, the meth system pressure switch tied into the EBC to dump boost to gate pressure if there's no system pressure and the level sensor in the tank if the level gets too low which deactivates the progressive controller so no pressure and no boost.
Julio at AC gave me some good info on pump life, what to expect, when I should replace stuff and correct winter storage so at this point, I'm feeling pretty good about the investment and the potential.
As to how much I'm going to run, however much the kit will provide to get me up into that 20-25lb range, Julio says the pump is good for 190-200psi plus dual M15 nozzles so hopefully into the 800-900whp range.
There are some roll racing events I'd like to attend next year, and I'd like to smack a few guys around while telling them its just pump gas.

 

As long as you are pushing on the pressurized side of the nozzle at 100+ psi the meth instantaneously evaporates - I know it gets bantered around on here about residence time, etc..., but that isn't an issue at the concentrations, nozzle designs and pressures/temperatures we are talking about. It is very highly vaporized instance it crosses the nozzle.

You can add boost as well to lean things out - no issue. If ultimately you are going to be running a much higher boost all the time, probably a better way to start out vs. getting the car situated at a lower boost (which you aren't going to use) then turning it up.

Unless you are using something like a TorqByte, FrostByte or aftermarket computer, the progressive will try and simulate a percentage of your fueling via you low/high boost or RPM depending on whose setup you are using. So, it is tough to have a higher percentage of meth of top without affecting the lower-end meth percentage. As you turn the boost up, you'll lean it out first, but at some point, as you keep going up in boost you will need to back down on PE/VE fueling down low and add PE/VE fueling up top. In short, most progressives aren't setup where you can do the entire adjustment with meth - you have to go to a more sophisticated controller to do that.

The EBC boost dump is the best way to go. That is a solid setup to keep things safe.

The older pumps were good for 1 to 2 years. Supposedly, the newer stuff is good for longer, but I think it depends on how you store it, (wet/dry/etc...). It will fail eventually. Most meth systems are based off the same water pump technology - rebadged, lightly modified or similar to an Aquatec Water WMI pumps. Which is meth resistant, but not 100% meth proof and will eventually fail. So, just have to be ready for it.

Dual M15 nozzles is 30 gph of meth. That is about 25% meth on your setup. It should be a perfect amount: enough to safely run 20 to 25 psig and you are only 2% of the 6% LEL, so you don't have to worry about liberating your intake if you bop the rev limiter or something.

Sounds like a stout setup. Should be fun.

 

I'll be honest, I talk about running a lower boost setting on the street for (insert reason) but I never do.
The car is making 14 lbs. right now and it was hard enough for me to turn it down from 15.5 lbs. because it really seemed like it was happier.
Realistically I'll probably run around on 20 lbs. as it outta be pretty rowdy at the level and use the 25 lb. setting for when I'm at a track event or street racing heavy hitters, probably splash a little race gas in the tank just for safety.
The progressive controller is the one supplied by Alky Controls in the kit, from all the research I've done, everyone seems to love it and says it works really well.
I also confirmed in the Cortex options that I can configure an input so the EBC will see a pressure range and I can then setup a parameter to dump boost if the pressure gets too low which is awesome.
Julio said the pump head last 2-4 years depending on how hard I run it, with what I told him and how little I really drive the car, he said 3-4 years would be no problem provided I store the car correctly.
Which storage is equally easy, use the controller to pump out all the methanol, add blue WW fluid and flush the system and store it, reverse process when I bring it out.
A new pump head is $85 so I'll probably just replace it every couple three years.
What does the 2% of 6% of LEL refer to?

 

Just gonna tag @Forcefed86 because I know he's done a bunch of these as well.

 

LEL = low explosive limit

 

The AC kit is great. Progressive controller works well and you won't have any issues with it. My only point was that it emulates a fixed % of methanol along your boost curve, and cannot do higher percentages of methanol for different areas of boost - you need a more sophisticated controller (ie. TorqByte, Holly, etc...) to do that. The AC progressive will work fine and is the perfect solution for most setups.

Agreed on storing it dry. Usually methanol systems store better wet, but the water-based pumps seem to die from methanol getting to places it isn't supposed to (shaft seal?) - so dry I think is better for all of the Aquatec based stuff (AC, Prometh, AEM, Devils, Snow, etc...).

LEL is lower explosive limit. It is the minimum concentration of fuel to air that you need to create a combustible environment. Below it, you can have an ignition source and stuff won't go boom. Above it, and all you are waiting on is an ignition source which is pretty easy to create in an intake. It's why above ~50/60% methanol you need to get the methanol up onto the fuel rail (ie. 8x more injectors, etc...) or you run a pretty high chance of liberating something in your induction system.

 

I've got an alky kit on my 67 and have a single nozzle hooked up in the charge pipe just before the IAT sensor. I use setting 5 on the dial, and adjusted the turn on to engage the system starting at about 8-10ish psi. I'm using california catpiss 91 on a gen4 4.8, and sit at 12* between 4500-5500, and roll up to 14* above 5500rpm. I'm targeting 11.00 AFR with boost juice by adjusting the VE table, and haven't blown it up (yet) at 17psi. I plan to push 20ish PSI with this setup by pulling a couple degrees in boost.

 

The meth does not instantly flash to a gas in the tubing. Esp. at your 90-100* charge temps. Meth flashes about 150* at 1 atmosphere. As pressure in the charge pipe goes up, so does the boiling/flash point of the fluid. So without 150*+ worth of charge temps, its not going to flash and it will wet the IAT probe.

Honestly it doesn't matter where you put it IMO. You just have to tune for its placement.

Personally I'd prefer to have it at the TB not wetting a sensor. I wouldn't alter your current tune up to 15lbs. I'd have the meth come on slow around 13-14lbs and full on by 20.

The problem with meth tuning is the target AFR changes setup-to-setup based on the power made and the amount of meth sprayed. Ask Julio what target AFR you should target with the meth active. He has a spread sheet he uses. Your VE table should be pretty linear tune wise. I simply left my gas VE table. Which targeted 11.5ish. Then when my meth was active it pulled AFR down to 10.8ish. But that was specific to my power level/rpm/and nozzle volume. I want to say Julio sprays a ton and drops his AFR really low. like bottom 10's.

Because distribution is crappy, you basically want to ensure the hole with the least flow to it still gets enough meth to keep it happy. Screw all the other cyls that are being flooded. Because meth has such a huge tuning window, this usually isn't a problem.

I wouldn't raise timing at all. I'd actually drop it down to something silly at 5500+ to like 10*. then dial in the AFR and boost to 20. Once that's happy, bump timing in the 5500+ range 1-2* at a time watching plug heat line and MPH.

Can you setup AFR safeties with the HP tuners? With my ECU I set the AFR map to cut ign if the AFR was +/- 1pt so I'd set the targeted AFR richer the more boost I added. This pretty much saves you if you have an issue with meth not spraying.

Good luck!

 

I was hoping you'd chime in.
I'll reach out to Julio and get those details from him.
What can I really do to combat distribution issues?
My intake consists of a Vic Jr. and Aaron's Elbow which has a divider across the middle and a Holley 105mm TB so I'm hoping that I won't have the lean #7 cylinder common with the factory style intakes.
That was why I was leaning towards having the nozzles farther down the intake pipe to give the meth more time to mix into the air stream.
As for HP Tuners, I'm not aware of any safeties other than what was mentioned about dumping timing using the IAT sensor.
I will have a pressure transducer plumbed into the meth system post filter that's tied into my EBC so if pressure gets below a set point, it'll dump boost, the EBC also has a boost cut setup for AFR and over boost which so far have worked really well.
Thinking I have about as many safeties as I can get without moving to an AM ECU which is looking better all the time lol.

 

They made distribution plates for the Turbo Buicks that were pretty cool. Always thought it was strange they don't do similar for LS. Not much you can do about distribution in the LS performance world. Watch the plugs to note your leanest cylinders. Then tune off the hottest looking cyl's plug. Make sure the hot cyls read rich/cool. Ignore the others that read fat/cold.

With a stand alone you can adjust individual cylinder fuel and timing. So you can get all the plugs reading similar giving you a much better starting point. Not sure if HP tuners can do that?

IMO most don't target rich enough AFR when spraying decent amounts of 100% meth. You may not even have to pull any fuel. Gap plugs low at .015 and see where you are at without touching the tune fuel wise. Just add meth. Adjust form there.