I didn’t mean belt slipping issues. I meant the power lost it takes to turn the blower itself. Also the fact that a turbo setup properly will make boost more quickly than a centri blower. As well as making more power per pound. Also since it doesn’t rely directly on RPM to make boost. I can sit on a trans brake and launch at any boost I wish. Then be at 30+lbs less than 1 second after the TB release. Centri blower won’t do that.

I agree overly low coolant temps can mean trouble as well. Not boiling off moisture can crud up the oil. If you don’t change it all the time. I turn my e-water pump off to get the car well up into the 200s to try and help when cruising to and from the track. At the track, there are benefits to starting a run cooler than 185. I shoot for 150’s in the staging lanes. Turn my water pump and fans on with the engine off. Gets there pretty quick.

 

Ground clearance is good, the IC tucks up behind the bumper and blower itself is tucked up between the radiator and the engine on the driver side iirc.
Nothing hangs down below the air damn.
If you go this route, I'd strongly recommend buying a nice high-quality dual 1" core radiator and replace that brushed single fan with a nice brushless unit, Proform makes a good one (@Kfxguy has a great thread on these) or Delta Pag if you have the cash.
I know folks don't care for the Delta Pag guy but watching Sick Week coverage there are a ton of cars running his products.
You'll need all the airflow you can get through that radiator to keep temps down when running it hard.

 

My last turbo car had this exact problem even with a larger dual core radiator and dual Derale pusher fans.
It wouldn't actually overheat but there would come a time when I would have to take it easy to cool it down before pushing it again.

 

Most of those reasons are why I prefer a Procharger. I don’t even need a 2 step on my daily just roll into the beams and leave off idle. The linear power also helps me get down the street or unprepped tracks easier with stock ecu and no traction control. I’m purely talking daily drivers with full interior and all the accessories it came with including ac and stereo.

im not saying Procharger is better but most of the claims of people in this group seem to have only been issues with f bodies and years ago because most of those old problems have been solved.

My first power adder was a turbo Buick it was cool but now that I’ve had a Procharger I will never deal with a turbo again.

I see more people argue on here that their way is correct similar to the meth injection thread but that’s not what I’m doing. I don’t think Procharger is better than any other combo for other peoples needs it’s just better for me and my needs. I will speak up when I see false claims but other than that I don’t care if I was the only one in the world that likes Procharger.

I’ve seen true street able cars go low 4’s with no issues street driving locally though not a daily it had no issues on weekend cruises or driving to/from the track with a Procharger.

I also use all stock accessories stock battery location stock fuel tank and stock water pump no issues.

 

Yeah the biggie with the f-bodys (and a lot of older platforms too) is that heat extraction just wasn't much of a consideration. They rely on scooping a majority of the air up from the ground underneath to feed the radiator and with no ducted outlet and it seriously limits the amount of air that goes through coolers. Add in an intercooler with forced induction that usually sits in front of the radiator and adds it's own heat load and it degrades that even more. Adding big brushless fans can help, but you can only do so much when it just doesn't have the frontal surface area and flow. There is a reason as power levels have gone up over the years manufacturers have added more coolers and ducted the airflow appropriately with body work, front bumpers, etc to try to keep them cool. It's no mistake that modern boosted cars like the Gen6 ZL1 has 11 heat exchangers or like the C7 ZR1 has 13. Hell even the naturally aspirated C8 Z06 has 5 heat exchangers to shed heat.

 

Thank you Nic.
This is all I was saying and that adding a Procharger can compound these deficiencies, that's it.
The GTO doesn't have these problems, I get it but the OP isn't building a GTO.
Not sure why dude is getting so agitated and accusing me of lying by sharing what is really common knowledge in the forced induction 4th gen community.

 

I mean, I would definitely say the GTO has the same problems as the f-bodys do. My TT GTO back in the day was very hard to keep cool with the intercooler up front blocking the radiator and the procharged GTOs have the same issues with their dinky little radiator fan and intercooler setup. Putting in better fans helps, but it still doesn't have the airflow required through the whole system to keep them nice and cool. I would say it's barely adequate for normal driving in the heat and little quick rips, doing any spirited corner carving will have you overheating in no time.

 

Don’t get me wrong I like blowers as well as the next guy. Definitely not trying to convert anyone. As you mention, I'm just getting the facts out there. There really is no argument on the efficiency of a turbo VS a blower. Or cost VS performance between the two. And you can’t really claim one is more reliable than another. As you can have all the same amenities with either setup.

Everything else is personal preference. Which is always welcome and valued IMO. I’ve seen some crazy quick times with prochargers too. Our 275 tire track record is a procharged 3 sec notch actually. But again, no one is claiming a procharged car can’t be fast. The Fact is a blower is less efficient at making boost and costs more. Your same exact setup would run faster at the same boost with a turbo… period. You may not personally like it better, but that’s not what the discussion is about.

Personally, I like positive displacement blowers on smallish motors. A JY “cam only” 4.8 with the cheap LSA style blower is pretty awesome piece when you look at the cost VS performance. It drives like a healthy 500 cube BBC for peanuts. They make like 500+ftlb at 2500rpm with a “tabletop” dyno graph. To the point you have to pull timing and/or cam it really aggressively to get rid of some of the low end power so you don’t break things. That’s what I think of when people talk about a super charger giving low end NA style power. Def not a centri unit.

 

First thing I would mention is I'm far from mad as another poster stated. Secondly, I'm accused of aggressively defending prochargers every time this comes up... well I do happen to be the only member that posts regularly that has a procharger so of course when everyone else who posts regularly runs a turbo and that is all that ever gets recommended here I tend to speak up to offer another option. Sorry if I seem aggressive I don't mean to seem that way.

Remember I replied to a guy stating that procharger cars over heat. That hasn't been the case for me I literally was daily driving the car and often still take over 2 hour each way cruises including drag racing the car after a 2 hour trip. I've never had a heat problem with this car with the procharger. I do know some turbo GTO's have had problems but I'm not sure what their issue is as I have not had a turbo GTO personally.

I also wonder how many people posting about procharger problems have actually experienced them rather than repeating what they've read or heard. Sure, there were some problems specifically with the F-body kits but not many people were successful with any form of boost on ls motors back in 2002. Everything including tuning and prochargers themselves have come a long way since then.

Yes, turbos make more power per pound of boost that doesn't always equate to faster ET. I've seen plenty of procharger combos ET better than equal turbo combos that dynoed higher. One of the most famous small tire no prep guys in the midwest is currently switching back to procharger because all though he trapped higher with a turbo he couldn't ET as well and he clearly knows what he's doing with a turbo as he ran them successfully for years.

Speaking of drag racing since that keeps getting brought up no one cares about the cost. Drag racing is the dumbest most expensive thing we could ever enjoy so saving a few thousand dollars in the grand scheme of it is nothing in my opinion and I say this as one of the lower income guys on this forum.

Turbos are better at everything I get it and nothing I say will change any minds. There is no free lunch though and they are not without their problems. A lot of things you need like building boost before staging and things like that bumping in I don't like to do and don't need to do with a procharger. Boost is relative directly to rpm so what ever rpm I want to leave at or off idle is no issue. Leaving a stop light what ever the power is predictable and linear it's easy to control with my foot and no aftermarket ecu or controllers needed just tune it for max power and control wheel speed with my foot. I like that. You don't and that is perfectly fine.

I'm not sure why I immediately am under attack when I point out the few things a procharger is good at or dispell myths that for some reason people think a procharger is more prone to overheating than a turbo that is false. Any over heating issue is a problem elsewhere as under hood temps are lower on every procharger car I've been around than any turbo car. That makes it nice when you have all accessories and wiring doesn't have to be excessively protected under the hood or anything like that.

Lots of things a turbo combo is good at but lots of things a procharger car is good at and doesn't need the extras a turbo does.

I like going to tech driving the car in and don't get a second look because I have the stock battery location, stock fuel tank, full interior, all those things even though I have a cage and racing seats. I don't need a shut off for the battery or extra wiring for programmers, boost controllers, waste gates, oil return lines, and way more room under the hood and can work on it right after a run to change plugs or what ever I want.

I get it you are all faster than my 5.9 daily but you also probably aren't 3800 lbs race weight with a poorly designed IRS compared to more modern IRS. I've seen vettes run 4.3 on radials with a procharger driven to the track and home so they can be fast with a better suspension and lighter car that still had ac and stereo. Yes there are faster cars and turbos clearly make more power.

TURBOS are better than every other power adder I get it. Lets just be honest about what a procharger actually can do and what problems it does or does not actually present. Some of you have tuned and owned procharged combos, but if you have not personally owned them lets not make up problems with them that we haven't actually experienced.

I'm kind of losing interest in the group due to false/biased info being shared anymore and less and less factual technical discussions where we all can learn from each other.

I actually had to lower timing as I come into boost not because it was spark limited but it helps me run better ET and get down a street in my no low end producing procharger LOL.

Another factor is the complete combo. A turbo certainly works better on a 5.3 than a procharger but once you get into 400 inch or bigger combos there is no lack of off idle torque or mid range regardless of the power adder.

Anyway like always you are always right no matter the topic and will argue till the end like you did in the meth thread and many others so I do concede you are correct turbos are better in every single situation and procharger should go out of business because no one should ever use one LOL.

 

I wasn't that guy you are referring to, but I did also say that procharged GTOs tend to get hot. The GTO has one of the oldest and worst designed procharger kits that is still on the market with flimsy brackets that you can literally move by hand just by pushing on the blower when it's installed and with very limited fan cooling with it's shroud. Then with the intercooler right in front of the radiator I've personally seen more of these than I can count get up into the 230 deg coolant temps in the summer here in AZ. Changing out the fans, putting in a better radiator, it all helps but it still runs warmer than I would like to see. And don't even think about making any spirited runs through the twisties either as it will overheat in about 5 minutes of that.

I like prochargers, I like turbos, I like PD blowers, they all have a purpose with upsides and downsides.

 

I hear ya, no aggression here either. Just making the day go by quicker throwing in my .02. I'm glad you commented.

If the chassis is good enough to handle the power, then yes… more power does = better ET. Comparing apples to oranges now anyway. We’ve drifted far from the 600HP Basic forced induction LS setup.

You can have all of the same things you mention with a turbo car as well. Why would think you couldn’t? You can have just as much space to work on the car easily. Hell you can put the turbo in the trunk if you want. Those HUGE blowers are really difficult to package. I can pull all my plugs out after a run on a hot motor in less than 5 minutes. That’s all just planning and experience. I have no more wiring or controllers than I’d have on a blower car. Its all done with one ecu. I don’t “bump in” to build boost either. Never have because I planned the combo correctly and don’t need it. Esp for entry level stuff like we run, neither is more “Street” than the other if setup correctly IMO. Both are cool… so It comes down to what you prefer and how deep your pockets are in the end. Either will do 600+hp easy on any LS motor.


Ryan Mitchell's new turbos relatively small compared to the motor. Esp. when you compare them to the massive blower he ran. Not to mention what that massive blower setup cost. If he had turbos sized more appropriately, they would way out power the blower at like boost. If he had a better chassis, he’d be able to put down the additional power without issue and the turbo setup would be quicker and faster. The fact that a more linear power band works better for his exact setup ET wise is again not the point. Also not ******* on his setup as its super slick! Guarantee if he had a Brett Lasala budget, he’d have a MUCH nicer chassis and some big honkn turbos hanging out front.

I don’t think anyone is arguing they are faster than your specific motor/combo? And if they were, I don’t see how that would prove one combo is better or worse than another? Don’t be so close minded. If u like blowers, more power to ya. But you can’t claim they are “Better” than a turbo at making power. Also can’t deny a Procharger will cost a lot more. No room to argue on those 2 facts.

Working with a buddy on an F1 setup on his SBF in a Fairmont. Space was def an issue and the accessories and drive with a 12 rib belt was also a pain. Super slick car though! Def takes up a lot of real-estate up front! Much more than similar power turbo would have. But he likes the whistle! lol so here we are! Had to buy some fancy headers to match it all too of course.

 

@06pbmKC posts 600hp setup advice and gets all this BS, sorry bud.
There's another avenue here too that I just thought about and that would be a rear mount turbo setup.
You could have a smaller unit say like a VS 70/70 back where the muffler would be, then you aren't tampering with the front cooling arrangement at all.
Just adding an IC behind the bumper which won't affect airflow across the radiator since it pulls that air from down low via the air damn.
Then all that turbo heat is back where the bumper would be, might just be the way to go for what you want to do.
@ddnspider has one of these setups with a larger VS 7875 and seems very happy with it, perhaps he'll chime in and lend his experience.

 

Cubes, RPM, and trans will really dictate which turbo should be used. If its a stick 5.3 shifting at 6500 or less and only 600whp desired, I'd run a smaller turbo than the billet 7875, especially if its a stick. It'll make gobs of torque and the area under the curve will make it a blast. If it's a stalled auto that wants to shift at 7k+ then I'd look at the 7875. That fleabay turbo was great for me for years at 700whp shifting at 7k at around 16 psi. I don't have the car anymore, but it's still running around.

 

I mistakenly posted this reply to another thread.

My car ('00 WS6) was previously setup for road racing. It is now just a fast street car. Procharger is much better for road racing, and I prefer the blower for a street car.

Cooling with the blower is an issue, but not insurmountable. I actually run the stock radiator. Open up some area in the front, pinch down on the BOV, keep the front air dam, run a custom shroud with bigger fans and things stay largely under control. Some pictures of what I run with a D1x at ~900+ WHP

Ignore the mess, swapping the engine.

 

lol @ Prochargers not creating high iat’s. My f1a on my 5.3 rx7 had an air to water intercooler and if i let it sit at idle for a few minutes with the pump on the water would climb to 120f and stay there. Even at 900rpm my 2 bov’s were hissing and you can feel the heat from a few feet in front of the car. If I drove it around town just putting around that water would get to 140-150 easy. The pro charger just sits there and heat soaks your intercooler the entire time you drive, at least with the turbo it’s only creating heat when your in boost. (I am referring to iat heat, obviously the turbo will create more heat in your engine bay but that isn’t as big of an issue as heat soaking your intercooler).

I eventually got rid of the pro charger as it ate belts, had a really shitty power band, and was absolutely obnoxious at part throttle anywhere. If you want to be the loud and obnoxious douche in town then the Procharger would be a great choice.

personally I’d go with an LSA blower if you have the hood clearance, it will provide instant torque, hit your power goals, and not be obnoxious.

 

Procharger owners are the town douche....

More hard hitting tech from the forum wizards at LS1tech

Underhood temperatures are hard to control on an fbody turbo road track car. It eats plug wires and shortens the life of sensors and coils.

 

After talking with Procharger and a shop, I don’t like how low they hang. I may look at the Maggie if it can support big cubes.

 

They tuck up fine. You'll rip the nose of the car off before you'll hit the blower.

The positive displacement blowers (like the maggie) are better. Better power curve and fitment. Cowl clearance can be a problem with some types. As you get above 8-900 with the positive displacement blowers low-end traction can become annoying - which is why I run the D1x.

 

Saying cowl clearance is a problem for pd blowers on a 98-02 ws6 is like saying being a midget is a problem for getting hired to the nba. That is why I left that option out of my recommendations, even though it would otherwise be great for controllable power delivery.

 

100% true. Get comfortable with cutting - and getting the wipers to work again is not awesome.