MORE Performance....800+ RWHP blown 427
10-23-2004, 12:24 PM
#41
Originally Posted by onfire
Bryan, I'm impressed with you and your car. Great setup. However, a couple of your facts are wrong. The 8 second LPE turbo car makes a "tad" more than 650 rwhp...when it out gunned the jet. Plus, even though 800rwhp is a great hallmark (and don't think I'm not impressed as I am), the area under the curve of a typical 725rwhp LPE TT would walk you at the strip. Am I biased toward LPE? Sure. They are the only shop that has a mechanical engineer on staff that can program in hex and add a 3bar map sensor to a factory ecm. You have an awesome ride, but I wouldn't hack at LPE as one of their lowly 9 second cars might make you feel bad. Run a high 8 or low 9 at Thunder and you can hack away at anybody. Good luck at Thunder!
Not that you knew it and I wont hold it against you, I can add a 2 bar map to my Stock GM computer and have a 200KPA resolution VE table to edit with. Can LPE do that? Talk to Ed Potter at LPE, they said that they could not do the editing in Hex, even if I bought the engine from them.
I think what you provided is great information. Please get the Dynograph from the LPE car that you are referring and post it. Lets take a look at it. I think LPE does good work also. The hey also said it couldn't be done, and so did MTI. But when you look at the broad power band of the dyno graph that I posted and we compare it to the LPE I believe it will show a different story. And remember that LPE does not give there numbers at the Rear Wheel. It is at the flywheel, just like MTI, and SLP. There is nothing peaky about the graph I provided. I am going to have to be a little cocky and say that until someone proves otherwise, I currently have the most powerful STREET TA in the US. I am basing this on the rules set forth from HOT ROD MAG for a true street car. This means,
Can drive in traffic all day
Can pass inspection
Can be driven as a daily driver
And does not use nitrous to make that power (not that it is wrong, but we are comparing turbos and Superchargers)
and before anyone else reading this decides to get pissy, make sure before you post that understand the question. The challenge was find me any LS1 motor in any configuration that make 800RWHP with a TURBO with only 10#'s of boost. Especially with the power curve that I posted.
When I learn how to drive on slicks I will back this up with some track numbers. Talk is cheap I showed you mine, lets see yours from LPE
Please do not be offended by any of this, I was just being cocky this morning. I have no harsh feelings about any of it. I am actually very easy going, and very open minded. However, we must have facts on this forum. Saying it is just not enough anymore. This car is capable of high 8's low 9's with slicks. Even though we are driver limited here, Nov 6th @ Darlington, we will start by seeing what I can do with street tires. not steet slicks. These are Z rated everyday buy at National Tire and Battery. No predictions.
10-23-2004, 12:27 PM
#42
Originally Posted by Mike 01WS6
Bryan, what is your intercooler setup? How are you getting air to the FMIC for that amount of power.....did you have to hack up the front facia (take out front plate area and fog lamps) or was More able to duct air to it by some other means?
Bryan
send me your email and I will send you some picts.
10-23-2004, 01:01 PM
#43
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I'm the last person that you could make mad Bryan...this is just a discussion. First of all what you're asking for has already been posted here. Look for Zo6turbo or turbozo6...an LPE TT with an odd size engine...like 405ci??....His graph was posted and he drove it with Cats, etc to the strip and ran a 9 with a 6 speed....the Hot Rod Drags ran at a strip....not on a dynojet....you're a little bit in denial (or I am) in comparing a street cars ability to accelerate vs a peak number on a dynojet. LPE always rates their cars lower than reality...yet they are running 8's and 9's...how many F1 ls1's are running 8's and 9's? You have a very nice, engineered package. LPE would never touch that kind of package as it is outside of their proven combination....the reality of LPE tuning is a stock ecm that has an adjustable boost controller where the maf and ecm are accurate beyond 512gs where eveyone else is stuck. Riddle me this...how does LPE set up multiple boost levels (8psi,12psi,15psi) on ONE PROGRAM? No body else can. What would impress you more...two cars with the identical idle...all factory accessories..emissions legal....same weight, tires etc...one has a 800rwhp dynograph...one has a 625 rwhp dynograph.....and the 625 car is one second faster at the strip? Area under the curve baby. Good luck at Thunder...run a 9!
10-23-2004, 08:12 PM
#45
Originally Posted by onfire
First of all what you're asking for has already been posted here. Look for Zo6turbo or turbozo6...an LPE TT with an odd size engine...like 405ci??....His graph was posted and he drove it with Cats, etc to the strip and ran a 9 with a 6 speed....
The question was make 800RWHP, and meet the following conditions.
1. it has to happen under 6000RPM
2. Pump Gas 93 Octane NO ADDITIVES
3. do it with less than 10$'s of boost.
If I lowered my pulley, I would be over 1000 RWHP. I have enough fuel to support 1300HP.
The whole point of this exercise was, can it be done reliably, and driveable, by that I mean, not over stress the motor, reving past 6000 RPM, and not over driving a blower, something like 15lbs or more. Would you not agree that 10#'s of boost on a ATI F1, is barley even working the blower. I could make those changes and put the car over the top, but it would cost me reliablity. At this point in this configuration it is virtually under no stress at those power levels.
I even did it with LS6 heads not C5-R heads.
I could not find the graph and if you get time, I would love to see it.
Making over 1000RWHP in a LS1 is a no brainer at this point with a turbo and 20lbs of boost. The point was did LPE do it on a regular production car that they sell to the public, according to the link you sent me to it was a prototype that LPE would not reproduce. More Performance will build you my setup for about $50,000 less than what LPE would charge and I drive it on the street with no problem. Like I said, the Darlinton thing on Nov 6th, we will see what it can do on street tires, but please remember, I am unexperienced at speeds over 130mph and track experience is limited to 1 time. The one time I went my best time in my brand new 2002 TRANS AM was 14.1. I guess we will see. I will not be coming to Texas, but I will be in Darlington.
10-23-2004, 08:13 PM
#46
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
Steve Dumler's TT LPE 427 FRC went 8.9's and it was probably at like 850rwhp or more at his raceweight.
10-23-2004, 08:42 PM
#48
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Bryan, somebody is giving you some bad info.
1. LPE's cookie cutter premium package is a 427 c5r block TT rated at 725 engine hp and 730 engine torque AND 9.5 @ 145mph et's without a boost controller and with a 2 year warranty...for $49,995....unless More gave you the package you have it can't be $50,000 cheaper.
2. That package will not dynojet near your 800rwhp...but it will be quicker than your 800rwhp due to massive area under the curve.
3. Add a boost controller to the above and delete the 2 year warranty and it's a monster.
4. Why arbitrarily limit yourself to less than 10psi and 6000rpm?
If LPE can warranty an engine to 6500 rpm and 12 psi who cares?
Turbos don't place eccentric loads on a crankshaft like a belt driven sc, so they will be more reliable at elevated rpm's. A turbo set-up shouldn't be handicapped for a lessor type design.
5. I agree with you on the 93 octane since it's what is available on the street (in some areas) for a "Street" goal. Turbozo6 did dyno and run on pump gas.
6. I like to add cats to the equation also. Which LPE always uses.
7. I'm not sure what link you're talking about?? I'll use the search and see if I can find the LPE post with the dynosheet that was posted here.
8. How about the multiple boost tuning question???? Your dynosheet shows a transition where the computer runs out of sampling calibration and appears to transition to a PE table crutch that is commonly used...nothing wrong with it...just make sure it's rich enough in cooler weather (which will make it too rich in the summer...but better safe than sorry)....if you change the boost parameters it will take a retune on a wideband though...unlike LPE.
With the massive power that you're making Bryan, you really need to run a tire better than street radials at the strip...that kind of power is hard to control with ET Streets/Slicks. Good luck at the strip.
1. LPE's cookie cutter premium package is a 427 c5r block TT rated at 725 engine hp and 730 engine torque AND 9.5 @ 145mph et's without a boost controller and with a 2 year warranty...for $49,995....unless More gave you the package you have it can't be $50,000 cheaper.
2. That package will not dynojet near your 800rwhp...but it will be quicker than your 800rwhp due to massive area under the curve.
3. Add a boost controller to the above and delete the 2 year warranty and it's a monster.
4. Why arbitrarily limit yourself to less than 10psi and 6000rpm?
If LPE can warranty an engine to 6500 rpm and 12 psi who cares?
Turbos don't place eccentric loads on a crankshaft like a belt driven sc, so they will be more reliable at elevated rpm's. A turbo set-up shouldn't be handicapped for a lessor type design.
5. I agree with you on the 93 octane since it's what is available on the street (in some areas) for a "Street" goal. Turbozo6 did dyno and run on pump gas.
6. I like to add cats to the equation also. Which LPE always uses.
7. I'm not sure what link you're talking about?? I'll use the search and see if I can find the LPE post with the dynosheet that was posted here.
8. How about the multiple boost tuning question???? Your dynosheet shows a transition where the computer runs out of sampling calibration and appears to transition to a PE table crutch that is commonly used...nothing wrong with it...just make sure it's rich enough in cooler weather (which will make it too rich in the summer...but better safe than sorry)....if you change the boost parameters it will take a retune on a wideband though...unlike LPE.
With the massive power that you're making Bryan, you really need to run a tire better than street radials at the strip...that kind of power is hard to control with ET Streets/Slicks. Good luck at the strip.
10-23-2004, 09:44 PM
#49
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Also, 10psi is just relative. 10psi out of a t88 is different then 10 psi out of a t66 as far as airflow is concerned. So you can't just say it has to be below 10psi it would have to be below a certain amount of air flow.
10-23-2004, 10:07 PM
#50
10 Second Club
I think MightyMouse just cracked tens with street tires. I don't think you'll get very impressive times with street tires. I always go on Nittos (10 bolt) and it gets frustrating sometimes cutting 2.0 60's knowing you're giving up a 1/2 to 3/4 seconds compared to if you were cutting 1.5-1.6's.
10-23-2004, 10:42 PM
#51
LS1Tech Co-Founder
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1. it has to happen under 6000RPM
2. Pump Gas 93 Octane NO ADDITIVES
3. do it with less than 10$'s of boost.
#1 and #3 are just your parameters, 800rwhp on 93 pump gas has been done by LPE I am pretty sure.
2. Pump Gas 93 Octane NO ADDITIVES
3. do it with less than 10$'s of boost.
#1 and #3 are just your parameters, 800rwhp on 93 pump gas has been done by LPE I am pretty sure.
10-24-2004, 08:09 AM
#52
Originally Posted by onfire
Bryan, somebody is giving you some bad info.
1. LPE's cookie cutter premium package is a 427 c5r block TT rated at 725 engine hp and 730 engine torque AND 9.5 @ 145mph et's without a boost controller and with a 2 year warranty...for $49,995....unless More gave you the package you have it can't be $50,000 cheaper.
2. That package will not dynojet near your 800rwhp...but it will be quicker than your 800rwhp due to massive area under the curve.
3. Add a boost controller to the above and delete the 2 year warranty and it's a monster.
4. Why arbitrarily limit yourself to less than 10psi and 6000rpm?
If LPE can warranty an engine to 6500 rpm and 12 psi who cares?
Turbos don't place eccentric loads on a crankshaft like a belt driven sc, so they will be more reliable at elevated rpm's. A turbo set-up shouldn't be handicapped for a lessor type design.
5. I agree with you on the 93 octane since it's what is available on the street (in some areas) for a "Street" goal. Turbozo6 did dyno and run on pump gas.
6. I like to add cats to the equation also. Which LPE always uses.
7. I'm not sure what link you're talking about?? I'll use the search and see if I can find the LPE post with the dynosheet that was posted here.
8. How about the multiple boost tuning question???? Your dynosheet shows a transition where the computer runs out of sampling calibration and appears to transition to a PE table crutch that is commonly used...nothing wrong with it...just make sure it's rich enough in cooler weather (which will make it too rich in the summer...but better safe than sorry)....if you change the boost parameters it will take a retune on a wideband though...unlike LPE.
With the massive power that you're making Bryan, you really need to run a tire better than street radials at the strip...that kind of power is hard to control with ET Streets/Slicks. Good luck at the strip.
1. LPE's cookie cutter premium package is a 427 c5r block TT rated at 725 engine hp and 730 engine torque AND 9.5 @ 145mph et's without a boost controller and with a 2 year warranty...for $49,995....unless More gave you the package you have it can't be $50,000 cheaper.
2. That package will not dynojet near your 800rwhp...but it will be quicker than your 800rwhp due to massive area under the curve.
3. Add a boost controller to the above and delete the 2 year warranty and it's a monster.
4. Why arbitrarily limit yourself to less than 10psi and 6000rpm?
If LPE can warranty an engine to 6500 rpm and 12 psi who cares?
Turbos don't place eccentric loads on a crankshaft like a belt driven sc, so they will be more reliable at elevated rpm's. A turbo set-up shouldn't be handicapped for a lessor type design.
5. I agree with you on the 93 octane since it's what is available on the street (in some areas) for a "Street" goal. Turbozo6 did dyno and run on pump gas.
6. I like to add cats to the equation also. Which LPE always uses.
7. I'm not sure what link you're talking about?? I'll use the search and see if I can find the LPE post with the dynosheet that was posted here.
8. How about the multiple boost tuning question???? Your dynosheet shows a transition where the computer runs out of sampling calibration and appears to transition to a PE table crutch that is commonly used...nothing wrong with it...just make sure it's rich enough in cooler weather (which will make it too rich in the summer...but better safe than sorry)....if you change the boost parameters it will take a retune on a wideband though...unlike LPE.
With the massive power that you're making Bryan, you really need to run a tire better than street radials at the strip...that kind of power is hard to control with ET Streets/Slicks. Good luck at the strip.
Controling the car so far as not been a problem. I have managed to learn how to manage it with my foot. Again not having the experience at the strip like a lot of you do, I am hoping to make a couple passes of trial and error and then a final pass full on. I do understand that track conditions are different than street.
The point about the 10 psi was in my setup, I am not putting anything under any stress and on 93 Oct I am still able to make that power. In a turbo setup you would have to run much more boost to get this power level, and in the case of LPE or all of the other LS1 cars doing it, two turbos. The F1 is not exotic. The F2, F3 and F4 are a whole other story. At 10#'s the crank is not under any kind of unnecessary stress. The F1 blower is barely working. I don't have all of that extra plumbing, or extra heat or extra heat soak in the oil. Engine oil does not have a unlimited life span. The more that the oil is heated up, the shorter the life. I guess what I am really getting to here is efficiency. I am a little bothered by all of the trash talk about SC's. I think it is great that you can bolt up two turbos and make 1200hp. In a durability test running 72 hours straight on a chassis or engine dyno, I would put my engine w/F1 up against the LPE twin turbo setup all day.
10-24-2004, 09:07 AM
#53
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Originally Posted by Bryan Wilkinson
2002 Trans Am with Manual 6 Speed
C5-R 427
Moldex Billet Crank 4.00 inch stroke
Carillo Connecting Rods 6.100"
Diamon Pistons with a -15cc Dish
LS6 Heads from More Performance cut to 73cc Chamber.
Jesel Mohawk Shaft Rockers 1.7 Ratio (More and myself)
With the Gasket Compression ratio calcs out to 9.8 to 1
Cam is 232/240 .600/.600 I been asked not to give the LS, I didn't picked so I cannt share without permission.
Stock LS1 Water Pump
6.0 Liter Ignition Coils
LSX Intake
Stock MAF (Going to SD Tune)
LSX 90mm Throttle Body
Upgraded forks in Transmission, Aluminum Flywheel, Aluminum Presure Plate Spec 3 Clutch Full Surface Ceramic
ATI F1 Blower, running a Steel bracket, and 8 rib 3.85 Pulley
ATI Race Blowoff Vavle, (Man this thing is serious)
Gauges are SPA for Boost/Intake Air
Dual Wideband PLX Devices to monitor both sides of engines.
Based on Boost Gage we are seeing 10lbs of boost.
Custom Intercooler built by More Performance driving down the road I have read as low as 58 degrees at 3 lbs of boost.
Fuel System is Aeromotive 1000 with Regulator
Aeromotive Voltage Regulator for Fuel Pump
BIllet Fuel Rails
71# injectors RC Engineering
Garden Hose Size Fuel lines. Teflon type lines
Mark Williams 9" rear End with Detroit Locker
Mark Williams Carbon Drive Shaft
True Tech Performance Aluminum Control Arms (would not change these for anything in the world)
Custom Radiator 29 X 14X2.5 with Dual Spal 11" Fans.
Stock O2 Sensors
Full Cats from Random Technology (No tricks here)
Corsa Exhaust System
Wilwood 6 Piston Calipers up front.
Engine Specs
Diamond Pistons:
Dish -15cc
Top Dead Center
1.135” compression Height @9.235 Deck Height
2618 Forging
.005 down in the piston hole
Bore: 4.125
Stroke: 4.00
Rod Length: 6.100
Head Gasket:
Brand: Cometic LS1
Compression Thickness 4.140 bore .043” thickness
9.8:1 CR
LS6 Heads:73cc
Deck Height:9.24”
Cylinder Bore Spacing:4.40”
9.887449:1 with 73cc
Displacement 427.648
Cylinder Head Volume CI 4.45393
Piston Volume CI .91519
Deck Volume CI 6.68201
Head Gasket Volume CI .57884
This pretty much covers it all
You can see a picture of the engine at
www.perigee.net/~lunapark/engine.html
and the dyno graph at
www.perigee.net/~lunapark/dyno800.html
If you have any other questions, all you have to do is ask. Anyone that would like a ride to judge for themselves, all you have to do is come to Charlotte and drop me an email.
C5-R 427
Moldex Billet Crank 4.00 inch stroke
Carillo Connecting Rods 6.100"
Diamon Pistons with a -15cc Dish
LS6 Heads from More Performance cut to 73cc Chamber.
Jesel Mohawk Shaft Rockers 1.7 Ratio (More and myself)
With the Gasket Compression ratio calcs out to 9.8 to 1
Cam is 232/240 .600/.600 I been asked not to give the LS, I didn't picked so I cannt share without permission.
Stock LS1 Water Pump
6.0 Liter Ignition Coils
LSX Intake
Stock MAF (Going to SD Tune)
LSX 90mm Throttle Body
Upgraded forks in Transmission, Aluminum Flywheel, Aluminum Presure Plate Spec 3 Clutch Full Surface Ceramic
ATI F1 Blower, running a Steel bracket, and 8 rib 3.85 Pulley
ATI Race Blowoff Vavle, (Man this thing is serious)
Gauges are SPA for Boost/Intake Air
Dual Wideband PLX Devices to monitor both sides of engines.
Based on Boost Gage we are seeing 10lbs of boost.
Custom Intercooler built by More Performance driving down the road I have read as low as 58 degrees at 3 lbs of boost.
Fuel System is Aeromotive 1000 with Regulator
Aeromotive Voltage Regulator for Fuel Pump
BIllet Fuel Rails
71# injectors RC Engineering
Garden Hose Size Fuel lines. Teflon type lines
Mark Williams 9" rear End with Detroit Locker
Mark Williams Carbon Drive Shaft
True Tech Performance Aluminum Control Arms (would not change these for anything in the world)
Custom Radiator 29 X 14X2.5 with Dual Spal 11" Fans.
Stock O2 Sensors
Full Cats from Random Technology (No tricks here)
Corsa Exhaust System
Wilwood 6 Piston Calipers up front.
Engine Specs
Diamond Pistons:
Dish -15cc
Top Dead Center
1.135” compression Height @9.235 Deck Height
2618 Forging
.005 down in the piston hole
Bore: 4.125
Stroke: 4.00
Rod Length: 6.100
Head Gasket:
Brand: Cometic LS1
Compression Thickness 4.140 bore .043” thickness
9.8:1 CR
LS6 Heads:73cc
Deck Height:9.24”
Cylinder Bore Spacing:4.40”
9.887449:1 with 73cc
Displacement 427.648
Cylinder Head Volume CI 4.45393
Piston Volume CI .91519
Deck Volume CI 6.68201
Head Gasket Volume CI .57884
This pretty much covers it all
You can see a picture of the engine at
www.perigee.net/~lunapark/engine.html
and the dyno graph at
www.perigee.net/~lunapark/dyno800.html
If you have any other questions, all you have to do is ask. Anyone that would like a ride to judge for themselves, all you have to do is come to Charlotte and drop me an email.
Bryan,
You have one hell of a car! That thing must be awesome to drive! Looks like the Diamond Pistons are doing there job. Have fun with the car and stay out of trouble.
10-24-2004, 06:25 PM
#54
Originally Posted by Chris@AP-Engineering
Bryan,
You have one hell of a car! That thing must be awesome to drive! Looks like the Diamond Pistons are doing there job. Have fun with the car and stay out of trouble.
You have one hell of a car! That thing must be awesome to drive! Looks like the Diamond Pistons are doing there job. Have fun with the car and stay out of trouble.
Thank you very much for the compliment.
Bryan
10-25-2004, 06:05 AM
#55
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i hate you all... for having such bad *** cars. hot damn, id like to have any of the cars mentioned in this thread!
hopefully i can get to work on a c5-r block with turbo in a year or two.
hopefully i can get to work on a c5-r block with turbo in a year or two.
