Customized STS Twins
12-15-2004, 05:35 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Zombie
JZ, i'm guessing that you are not a STS fan. They do seem to work quite well. I don't understand why so many people still want to play the big endian little endian card on where the turbo is located. It's still gonna make power and a lot of it.
I've tuned many turbo cars and two STS cars. The STS cars ran awesome, I sure didn't notice any difference except all the extra power. I personally am a big supporter of STS. Making power with a turbo setup is really very easy, even if it's not the normal way.
PureEvl, those are great numbers from your setup. I'm hoping to join the STS club in the near future.
I've tuned many turbo cars and two STS cars. The STS cars ran awesome, I sure didn't notice any difference except all the extra power. I personally am a big supporter of STS. Making power with a turbo setup is really very easy, even if it's not the normal way.
PureEvl, those are great numbers from your setup. I'm hoping to join the STS club in the near future.
Last edited by PurEvl; 12-15-2004 at 07:01 PM.
12-15-2004, 06:25 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by Zombie
JZ, i'm guessing that you are not a STS fan. They do seem to work quite well. I don't understand why so many people still want to play the big endian little endian card on where the turbo is located. It's still gonna make power and a lot of it.
I've tuned many turbo cars and two STS cars. The STS cars ran awesome, I sure didn't notice any difference except all the extra power. I personally am a big supporter of STS. Making power with a turbo setup is really very easy, even if it's not the normal way.
PureEvl, those are great numbers from your setup. I'm hoping to join the STS club in the near future.
I've tuned many turbo cars and two STS cars. The STS cars ran awesome, I sure didn't notice any difference except all the extra power. I personally am a big supporter of STS. Making power with a turbo setup is really very easy, even if it's not the normal way.
PureEvl, those are great numbers from your setup. I'm hoping to join the STS club in the near future.
That being said give him props for knowledge and then take everything he says about STS this or STS that with a grain of salt.
12-15-2004, 06:54 PM
#43
Originally Posted by PurEvl
says the slowest t76 front mount on ls1tech, I remember all your useless excuses. I would crush your car with my "wrong" sts. Why is a mod allowed to bash esp when his cars a f'ng joke. 11.82 with a t76 and built motor, are your kidding me, I can do that with 400 rwhp and a 6 speed. Your a troll 
im just pushin your buttons
not bashin just playinback in the day mine was one of the fastest T76's out there, its a bit outdated, i needed to crank up the boosty.11's on street tires ill take it
ill take your rear mount with my new set up
12-15-2004, 06:58 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by smokinHawk
im just pushin your buttons not bashin just playin
back in the day mine was one of the fastest T76's out there, its a bit outdated, i needed to crank up the boosty.11's on street tires ill take it
ill take your rear mount with my new set up
not bashin just playinback in the day mine was one of the fastest T76's out there, its a bit outdated, i needed to crank up the boosty.11's on street tires ill take it
ill take your rear mount with my new set up
Whats this new setup, cant go changing on me im at the limit right now
12-15-2004, 07:45 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by TurboBerserker
JZ knows a lot about turbos, that's undeniable. It's also undeniable that he has something to gain by bashing STS kits. He's the master distributor for PTK...
That being said give him props for knowledge and then take everything he says about STS this or STS that with a grain of salt.
That being said give him props for knowledge and then take everything he says about STS this or STS that with a grain of salt.
Well first I'd like to say thanks, and secondly you learn alot when doing controlled turbo testing. Also as for the 2 cubic ft. calculation, thats nonsense, its the heat lost, inlet temp drop, shifting of the compressor map..etc, that makes the difference or better yet put it on a controlled turbo test stand then you'll see the difference. Its not as simple as just adding cubic feet to the equation....lol. Also I have several STS customers and help them on a regular basis with parts, upgrades, so no I don't gain anything by bashing the system. Plus one of my STS customers has made 700+ rwhp with his system..though it did not end up being the powerband he wanted, but after adding many upgrades he seems to be happy for now. BUT, some people are highly mis-informed in the turbo world, and when I have STS customers relaying to me the BS some dealers give them about the kit before hand and then when its time for the kit to peform and it doesn't, well that plain sucks for the consumer. Also as I have stated, I am rarely biased on anything whether its turbos, wastegates, boost controllers...etc. I will try to fit someone with whatever they are looking for and what fits their budget. If you are dead set on an STS setup, then so be it. Not once have I ever said its not a nice little street system, but plain and simple it will not perform like a conventional setup, whether its PTK, HP's, TTi's.....etc..etc. I am certainly not bashing it, but call it like it is. The truth is a T76 rear mounted setup on a 346ci LS1 is not going to see full/peak boost by 3500rpms as an STS customer told me, since that was the info given to him.....
We did some simple turbo trials when I was out of the country 3 weeks ago. Moving the turbo 6 feet back on the test bench ( called a IGC hot gas stand, or also called a 2-loop) from the heat source hurt the output of the turbo by 25%, since the heat at the previous location was 1150deg, and 5 feet back the temp dropped to 850deg with only 2 bends. Remember, ALL turbos are tested and compressor maps generated using J1826 SAE standards. Which means 1100deg inlet temps.
Purevl, I get your point, but you think spool at 4K rpms is good for that turbo on that size motor??.....
.
12-15-2004, 08:02 PM
#46
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Hey JZ, I'm very willing to be wrong on this. Just saying how it appears, ya know? This is the first time I've seen your rationale, and the first time I've seen you post that the STS is a good any-kind-of kit. Course, I don't see all your posts, so this time take what I say with a grain or two 
Oh, and help me out with the peak torque/boost thing. Doesn't the engine build have a lot to do with peak torque? So if engine B is built to peak earlier then engine A, it seems like your definition of peak boost would be different even with identical turbos? This is a confusing way of evaluating turbos to me.
Oh, and help me out with the peak torque/boost thing. Doesn't the engine build have a lot to do with peak torque? So if engine B is built to peak earlier then engine A, it seems like your definition of peak boost would be different even with identical turbos? This is a confusing way of evaluating turbos to me.
12-15-2004, 08:15 PM
#47
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Like I have said before, the STS kit is a nice system for what is was designed for and that is as a street system to give a car a little added punch. It does that well with a fairly small turbo and still spools fairly decent. If your going to go big though, their is no substitue for conventional system structure. Some folks out there though are simply spouting out to much false info and not using common sense and don't have the benefit of seeing real world testing, whether the results be for better or for worse.
A prime example of testing is I get a ton a calls a day about the 76GTS and its power rating. It is rated 1100hp crank, but it is simply well underrated (more along the lines of 1300hp using a 15% drivetrain loss). And I have test results of some other units that don't perform to the # stated from other manufactures.
Jose
A prime example of testing is I get a ton a calls a day about the 76GTS and its power rating. It is rated 1100hp crank, but it is simply well underrated (more along the lines of 1300hp using a 15% drivetrain loss). And I have test results of some other units that don't perform to the # stated from other manufactures.
Jose
12-15-2004, 08:18 PM
#48
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Yes an engine build up will effect spool up, but its not a great deal. Just take my consumption charts and change the VE and that will somewhat simulate different engine outputs/combos, but even then we are talking just a few lbs/min of air difference. Nothing that will cause drastic spool up problems, except with extreme cases. I have a customer with a LT1 running a 7.0 cr. Well thats just a little to conservative...lol.
Jose
Jose
12-15-2004, 08:24 PM
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If you are going to do this I would consider the following
1) Dont bother with mufflers
2) Run stock 00 and up manifolds and a custom 2.5 inch ORY into an Xpipe and then dual 2.5 over the axle. Stainless steel and wrapped would be your best bet to retain heat in the pipe. The turbos will muffle the sound well.
3) Finally make sure there are NO leaks ANYWHERE on the exhaust side and go with an OBX or similar air to air in the front with big injectors and good programming.
I think with the cast manifolds, stainless steel piping/Xpipe and wrapping it'll spool half decent if you size the turbos properly.
1) Dont bother with mufflers
2) Run stock 00 and up manifolds and a custom 2.5 inch ORY into an Xpipe and then dual 2.5 over the axle. Stainless steel and wrapped would be your best bet to retain heat in the pipe. The turbos will muffle the sound well.
3) Finally make sure there are NO leaks ANYWHERE on the exhaust side and go with an OBX or similar air to air in the front with big injectors and good programming.
I think with the cast manifolds, stainless steel piping/Xpipe and wrapping it'll spool half decent if you size the turbos properly.
12-15-2004, 08:46 PM
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The key to this setup will be keep the turbos properly sized and run the lightest exhaust wheel you can run. Which a p-trim is ideal or even an O-trim if possible. Since you are running twins, backpressure and exhaust wheels are not as big of a priority as it would be with a single setup in the sense of using the largest and most efficient. Large and efficient means sacrifice in spool up, but the turbo world is a place of give and take.
Jose
Jose
12-15-2004, 08:49 PM
#52
Your one of the reasons this is being done...thanks for the motivation! I hope to reveal very limited lag.
Originally Posted by smokinHawk
i dont get the idea of a twin sts, but if you do go with the 2.5" exhaust, spool time will already be slow because its mounted back there and with the large impellers.
just buy plenty of snickers to eat in your car
just buy plenty of snickers to eat in your car
Last edited by Jammer; 12-15-2004 at 09:15 PM.
12-15-2004, 08:51 PM
#53
You may be right..I hope your wrong...one never knows until money is spent to find out...guess that fool will be me...we'll see!
Originally Posted by JZ 97 SS 1500
Hmm I have a customer running a single PTE76 GTS with a STS setup. Car doesn't spool till ~5600-5800rpms...hehe. I hope you have alot of paitence.
Jose
Jose
12-15-2004, 09:00 PM
#56
Originally Posted by Camaro_Zach
this will be interesting to see how it turns out...so both are going where the muffler goes? are you going to make any kind of shroud or casing for them? I dont know what kind of problems you run into with one in back such as speed bumps and such, but id imagine it will get tight back there with 2 of em...and are they going to merge into one pipe in back then come forward or are you going to run 2 pipes forward and into seperate sides of an intercooler? im curious as to how its beneficial to do this if youre going to just slap it all back into one pipe right away.
Please, nobody think I am doing this to compare to a traditional front mount. Im doing this sort of as an experiment that will either surprise me, others or no-one...its that simple. This is not a 1/4 car, though it has a detroit locker 9", all chasis and subframe work done, a fully forged 409 with 8.25 to 1 compression, stage 3 heads with Incolnol valves and so on. I try to build the car not to break as much as to go fast.
Back to the question....They will not be in the center where the mufffler was, as of this point they will mount on each side.
12-15-2004, 09:00 PM
#57
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nay sayers will be nay sayers until proven other wise, im sure the first person that ate an egg was rediculed for eating **** out of chickens *** but hey look at us now we all eat eggs lol.
12-15-2004, 09:05 PM
#59
true, true. am I hearing a rant for 2" or 2.25 in place of 2.5? Nahhh, Keepin it simple.
Originally Posted by XJGPN
Not to put this thread back on-topic or anything but figured I'd take a quick stab at the following.
Just for reference sake, The winter 2004 Engine Masters magazine has a 482 ci, 2,886 HP twin 91 mm turbo pontiac. Headers have 2" primaries into a 2.5" Collector. As per the article: "Though the collector size sounds a bit small, it was purposely built that way to increase exhaust gas velocity to quicken the response of the turbos and build boost quickly. Rodney says that the flow is not restricted by the smallish collectors; the turbo is the only restriction in the exhaust tract." I don't know at what point I would seriously start thinking about larger than 2.5" crossover pipe (or exhaust between collector and turbo for that matter)... but I think it is probably beyond what we would likely be able to reliably make from an LS1. That being said, you know if you go with small tubing, every douche you meet at a gas station is going to say that you shoulda gone with 3"
Just for reference sake, The winter 2004 Engine Masters magazine has a 482 ci, 2,886 HP twin 91 mm turbo pontiac. Headers have 2" primaries into a 2.5" Collector. As per the article: "Though the collector size sounds a bit small, it was purposely built that way to increase exhaust gas velocity to quicken the response of the turbos and build boost quickly. Rodney says that the flow is not restricted by the smallish collectors; the turbo is the only restriction in the exhaust tract." I don't know at what point I would seriously start thinking about larger than 2.5" crossover pipe (or exhaust between collector and turbo for that matter)... but I think it is probably beyond what we would likely be able to reliably make from an LS1. That being said, you know if you go with small tubing, every douche you meet at a gas station is going to say that you shoulda gone with 3"