Seems like the power gain was from the leaner A/F... 
Dyno numbers before / after alkyl
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From: Zurich - Switzerland
Dyno numbers before / after alkyl I finally was able to test the car after installing my homemade WI.
It’s nothing exceptional because it’s the 6PSI Vortech kit, but I never saw a real comparison before/after and maybe I can help someone.
Old numbers: 384 RWHP, 405 TORQUE @ 5 PSI
With: stock filter, TTS long tubes + cats, Corsa catback, 21* timing, 10.5 – 11.0 AFR
New numbers: 372 RWHP, 405 TORQUE @ 5 PSI (60* Celsius)
With: FIPK filter, stock exhaust manifolds and cats, Corsa catback, 21* timing, 10.5 – 11.0 AFR
Final numbers: 410 RWHP, 417 TORQUE @ 5 PSI (28* Celsius)
With: FIPK filter, stock exhaust manifolds and cats, Corsa catback, 17* timing, 12.5 AFR, 4 GPH 50% ethanol
AFR was measured injecting 4GPH of water alone. Alcohol also uses oxygen and modify the WB readings big time.
If I consider the temperature difference it’s clear from where the additional 10% power is coming from:
Without WI = 60 Celsius = 140F = 333 Kelvin
With WI = 28 Celsius = 82F = 301 Kelvin
333 / 301 = 1.106 = +10% air
Clear? It’s from pV = nRT
With bigger nozzles I see a power hole at the beginning of the spray: at 3200 – 3600 rpm it looses up to 40 HP, the rest of the curve is the same. The graph shows the 4 and the 8GPH nozzle.
I tried different timing curves (up to 21*) but I saw no power increase, absolutely nothing. With more timing I also need more alcohol to avoid KR (road tuning) and the power hole becomes bigger. At the end 4GPH + 17* timing is the best combination for my level of boost.
I also increased timing in different rpm ranges, not only at WOT, but it didn’t help either.
I could now put a smaller pulley… but I won’t do it. I reached my goal!
Stefano
It’s nothing exceptional because it’s the 6PSI Vortech kit, but I never saw a real comparison before/after and maybe I can help someone.
Old numbers: 384 RWHP, 405 TORQUE @ 5 PSI
With: stock filter, TTS long tubes + cats, Corsa catback, 21* timing, 10.5 – 11.0 AFR
New numbers: 372 RWHP, 405 TORQUE @ 5 PSI (60* Celsius)
With: FIPK filter, stock exhaust manifolds and cats, Corsa catback, 21* timing, 10.5 – 11.0 AFR
Final numbers: 410 RWHP, 417 TORQUE @ 5 PSI (28* Celsius)
With: FIPK filter, stock exhaust manifolds and cats, Corsa catback, 17* timing, 12.5 AFR, 4 GPH 50% ethanol
AFR was measured injecting 4GPH of water alone. Alcohol also uses oxygen and modify the WB readings big time.
If I consider the temperature difference it’s clear from where the additional 10% power is coming from:
Without WI = 60 Celsius = 140F = 333 Kelvin
With WI = 28 Celsius = 82F = 301 Kelvin
333 / 301 = 1.106 = +10% air
Clear? It’s from pV = nRT
With bigger nozzles I see a power hole at the beginning of the spray: at 3200 – 3600 rpm it looses up to 40 HP, the rest of the curve is the same. The graph shows the 4 and the 8GPH nozzle.
I tried different timing curves (up to 21*) but I saw no power increase, absolutely nothing. With more timing I also need more alcohol to avoid KR (road tuning) and the power hole becomes bigger. At the end 4GPH + 17* timing is the best combination for my level of boost.
I also increased timing in different rpm ranges, not only at WOT, but it didn’t help either.
I could now put a smaller pulley… but I won’t do it. I reached my goal!
Stefano
meth Did you really use ethanol, if so my tuner told me meth is easier to tune. Also the company that sold my kit said never use ethanol, only meth as it will bog among other things. Sorry if it sounds critical, i would just like to see you get the best results possible, with the least struggle.
Last edited by BOONE; Jun 3, 2005 at 08:15 AM.
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I'm using the windshield washer tank and I'm not confortable with something more than 50%. If it burns you don't even see a flame!
The bogs comes for sure from the alcohol (or from the water, difficult to say). I could see more power loss with more liquid.
You can buy 96% ethanol in every shop here as fuel for small kitchen burners (Swiss cheese fondue).
If you buy it as a solvent you have to pay an extra environment tax (VOC - volatile organic compounds). Ethanol is about $2.2 per liter, methanol (as solvent) more than double.
AFR: we went leaner than 10.5-11 but it didn't change the curve.
The biggest surprise is that the timing doesn't affect the power at all. And this is measured timing, not only what I set in the PCM. If it goes lower than 17 you see a clear loss. Somehow it's the limit.
How much timing are you guys running?
The bogs comes for sure from the alcohol (or from the water, difficult to say). I could see more power loss with more liquid.
You can buy 96% ethanol in every shop here as fuel for small kitchen burners (Swiss cheese fondue).
If you buy it as a solvent you have to pay an extra environment tax (VOC - volatile organic compounds). Ethanol is about $2.2 per liter, methanol (as solvent) more than double.
AFR: we went leaner than 10.5-11 but it didn't change the curve.
The biggest surprise is that the timing doesn't affect the power at all. And this is measured timing, not only what I set in the PCM. If it goes lower than 17 you see a clear loss. Somehow it's the limit.
How much timing are you guys running?
Originally Posted by tici
I'm using the windshield washer tank and I'm not confortable with something more than 50%. If it burns you don't even see a flame!
The bogs comes for sure from the alcohol (or from the water, difficult to say). I could see more power loss with more liquid.
You can buy 96% ethanol in every shop here as fuel for small kitchen burners (Swiss cheese fondue).
If you buy it as a solvent you have to pay an extra environment tax (VOC - volatile organic compounds). Ethanol is about $2.2 per liter, methanol (as solvent) more than double.
AFR: we went leaner than 10.5-11 but it didn't change the curve.
The biggest surprise is that the timing doesn't affect the power at all. And this is measured timing, not only what I set in the PCM. If it goes lower than 17 you see a clear loss. Somehow it's the limit.
How much timing are you guys running?
The bogs comes for sure from the alcohol (or from the water, difficult to say). I could see more power loss with more liquid.
You can buy 96% ethanol in every shop here as fuel for small kitchen burners (Swiss cheese fondue).
If you buy it as a solvent you have to pay an extra environment tax (VOC - volatile organic compounds). Ethanol is about $2.2 per liter, methanol (as solvent) more than double.
AFR: we went leaner than 10.5-11 but it didn't change the curve.
The biggest surprise is that the timing doesn't affect the power at all. And this is measured timing, not only what I set in the PCM. If it goes lower than 17 you see a clear loss. Somehow it's the limit.
How much timing are you guys running?
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No home depot over here... The alcohol I use is denaturated ethanol.
No progressive controller, no smaller pulley - as said I reached my goal. 410 RWHP is about 450 at the crank = 50% more than stock with the 6# Vortech. That's OK for me.
100% Alcohol and safety: I build chemical plants, sometimes with flammable liquids, and knowing what can happen I really won't go higher than 50%.
No progressive controller, no smaller pulley - as said I reached my goal. 410 RWHP is about 450 at the crank = 50% more than stock with the 6# Vortech. That's OK for me.
100% Alcohol and safety: I build chemical plants, sometimes with flammable liquids, and knowing what can happen I really won't go higher than 50%.
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What's weird is people on here talk about running more timing with Meth but on the GN boards they almost never increase the timing, they just add more boost when using Meth. Talking to Julio led me to believe that the meth helps to allow you to run more boost on the same timing but doesn't really help you to add a bunch more timing. Does that make sense?
For what it's worth we were running between 18-19deg of timing on 14psi with straight meth NP on my truck. I added some C16 one night just for added protection and have no issues running 14-15psi at the track. That's when I got my 110mph traps.
For what it's worth we were running between 18-19deg of timing on 14psi with straight meth NP on my truck. I added some C16 one night just for added protection and have no issues running 14-15psi at the track. That's when I got my 110mph traps.
Are the GN guys not adding timing by choice or is it because they are seeing no gains with the added timing.
I would think you should be able to increase timing since you have more of a safety factor built into the burn..
I may run some kind of alky system but I dont want to sacrifice my washer tank, I actually use that to clean off my windshield sometimes!
I would think you should be able to increase timing since you have more of a safety factor built into the burn..
I may run some kind of alky system but I dont want to sacrifice my washer tank, I actually use that to clean off my windshield sometimes!
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I believe it's because they were not seeing gains. Without knowing what their base timing is vs their timing with their burtn chips I can only speculate but when talking about how I should tune my truck it came across as I probably wouldn't gain much timing with the meth and durring tuning I think I only gained the ability to run maybe a couple deg extra but I was able to run more boost AND those extra 2deg. I'll have to ask Chris Chow how the stockish GNs run their timing stock vs upped boost.
Cylinder pressure and how the cam likes it will only hit a point where more timing wont do crap. So once you find the spot where you are done making torque with a certain amount of timing, leave it alone. Dont get greedy. The real power comes from the A/F mixture and you loosing power with Alky sounds right because of the size of the nozzle you are running plus you are making the mixture richer. Lean out the mixture some and use the alky as some of the A/F additive. A car will lose torque with too much fuel. And at that point, more boost is the key. Timing will only go so far.
Rick
Rick
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Originally Posted by Rick@Synergy
Cylinder pressure and how the cam likes it will only hit a point where more timing wont do crap. So once you find the spot where you are done making torque with a certain amount of timing, leave it alone. Dont get greedy. The real power comes from the A/F mixture and you loosing power with Alky sounds right because of the size of the nozzle you are running plus you are making the mixture richer. Lean out the mixture some and use the alky as some of the A/F additive. A car will lose torque with too much fuel. And at that point, more boost is the key. Timing will only go so far.
Rick
Rick
Something inteesting: with no WI or just with the 4GPH nozzle I see 6PSI (on the road). The higher the quantity (up to 10GPH) the lower the boost (about 4 PSI max). The blower can only move a certain amount of air, hot air, and produce a certain pressure. When you cool it down the pressure will obviously decrease. The air quantity (weight) will remain the same.
What is better, high prssure with high temperature or low pressure with low temperature? Higher pressure will push air faster trough the valves, but this air will be "lighter" because of the thermal expansion.
All in all is it the same?
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parish8, a smaller pulley would be the easiest and more powerful install of my "automotive career"... what a temptation!
The goal was that extra power keeping everything stock: engine, A4 trans and 2.73 diff. Also to be able to go back to stock in few hours.
I saw the Vortech kit as the only way to get there. Nitro would be another possibility, but I don't like it
The goal was that extra power keeping everything stock: engine, A4 trans and 2.73 diff. Also to be able to go back to stock in few hours.
I saw the Vortech kit as the only way to get there. Nitro would be another possibility, but I don't like it
Originally Posted by parish8
high presure + low temp is best. pully that thing up!! i know i know, you met your "goal"
Yes, the cylinder charge needs to be stable. The lower the octane rating, the more stable it must be.
Everything is really expensive for Stefano (Switzerland) the taxes on imprted good is high not counting the shipping and the cost of the parts also. Sounds like it worked well for you i'll let you know My experience with the meth very soon Stefano.
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Originally Posted by Rick@Synergy
Cylinder pressure and how the cam likes it will only hit a point where more timing wont do crap. So once you find the spot where you are done making torque with a certain amount of timing, leave it alone. Dont get greedy. The real power comes from the A/F mixture and you loosing power with Alky sounds right because of the size of the nozzle you are running plus you are making the mixture richer. Lean out the mixture some and use the alky as some of the A/F additive. A car will lose torque with too much fuel. And at that point, more boost is the key. Timing will only go so far.
Rick
Rick
Originally Posted by Got Me SOM
Are the GN guys not adding timing by choice or is it because they are seeing no gains with the added timing.
I would think you should be able to increase timing since you have more of a safety factor built into the burn..
I may run some kind of alky system but I dont want to sacrifice my washer tank, I actually use that to clean off my windshield sometimes!
I would think you should be able to increase timing since you have more of a safety factor built into the burn..
I may run some kind of alky system but I dont want to sacrifice my washer tank, I actually use that to clean off my windshield sometimes!
We run more timing, and more boost. Its all dependant on the person, but generally, across the board, the timing is advanced, and the boost can be raised as well. 26psi+23degree timing=
I think our stock timing is around 16-17. I know people that get these 91 chips only put about 19 degrees or so in them, which is small.
Also, it all depends on the engine. Even on LS1's, you can add timing and it wont do anything. I can assure you the GN guys just like the LS1 guys will play with the timing to try to get the most power out of their setup, once they reach the max power, theyll just have to leave it be.
If you really want, I can ask what the stock timing is, but it would really be irrelevant, seeing as we up the timing anyway.