eviltwins

How about a fuel system? Clutch? Tires? Driveshaft? Intercooler? Intake manifold? Head work? Cams? ECU? Exhaust?

As a former supra owner it's not nearly as easy as you think, and they're not as slow as you think. My old car now has a T400 in it and with a 67mm turbo has seen 9's on drag radials. There are 45 listed single digit cars on supraforums and a lot of the owners post on there. I can understand why they get such a bad rap, but saying a 1000 HP supra can barely break into the 10's is flat out ignorant. Sure, they might be able to barely break into the 10's if they're running 19" rubber band street tires, but with even a modest 26x11.5 ET street bottom 10's from a 6-speed stock shortblock car are very attainable with some seat time. One guy on supraforums is running 10.5's with 670 RWHP in a very heavy street car, they do hook good when you don't have a gomer driving it.

slp223

iTrader: (1)

you know what a 450 hp supra and a 1000hp supra have in comon?

they both run 12's. Seems most of the high hp supras have too big of turbo so they dyno better then they run.

2000 Tran Zam

iTrader: (2)

you can say that again, lol.

hmmm, woon, saad, colby, so many to choose from,

i did race colby in his 542 rwhp 97 supra and spun a bearing in my motor.

oh well, im gonna get him when i get my car back, fo sho!

NoGo

iTrader: (2)

I defiantly dig the supra, but I'm just not a big fan of having to run around on low boost if it is a DD.

Thats the great thing about forced induction V8's. You can make bonzo HP on pump gas. The numbers in my sig is how the car is driven every day to and from work during the summer, on 93 oct pump gas.

I drool over supra's daily, but equate the race-gas situation similar to nitrous. JMO

studentdriver

A guy around here has an NA-T converted Supra with a Powerglide that dynoed 590 rwhp without his nitrous. Spraying, he runs mid 9's. He has slicks, a transbrake, and quite a few other mods. Without the spray, though, he has to sit at the line to spool his turbo, which I believe is a big single. It's a really well-done car.

SsZERO

The current issue of SCC (yeah I read it) just did a "shoot out" of several 1000+ whp supras. Funny thing was, all of them were in the 10s. Looking at the dyno charts, those supras have steeeeeeeeep HP and TQ curves. Around 4500 RPM, they're only putting out around 350-380 HP at the wheels...the turbo needs a good 5000 RPM just to spool...and that 1000 HP figure only lasts for about 1000 RPM, between 7500-8500 or so.

I wonder if dyno charts would be more useful if they provided the average HP/TQ figures for a given RPM range, instead of the peak figures which are almost always misleading.

cablebandit

iTrader: (37)

Supra is a very nice looking car and i am a big fan of them.....not always the owners though. I imagine some of them are BUILT to be dyno queens and dont really car what they et. Like my car, it would be a good bit faster if I were willing to makes some concessions with weight and stuff. I wonder if the SCC cars were on street tires to still be in the 10s

Race-Prep

That's exactly what I was getting ready to say. These 4-6cyl cars CAN make the power but the area under the curve just is not there, your AVERAGE POWER is what makes a car fast in the 1/4 not PEAK POWER. You show me a 1500WHP Supra, and I will show you an 800WHP F-body that with equal traction will most likey slaughter the Supra! If you could put together a driveline that could keep the Supra at the 9000rpm it would take to make that much power, you could have a very fast car but the fact is, you really can't do it with any kind of efficiency.

-Bryan

sb427f-car

You hit the nail on the head. Take a look @ their short and 1/8 mile times (while a factor of the IRS and chassis too) but this is what it boils down too. I rather make a very flat tq curve (or one that is making stout, rising numbers for a long time) and be able to make peak HP with in about 1000 rpm of peak TQ than make peak tq and hp on "top of the mountain" so to speak. That avg. hp and tq is what gets you down the track, along with having a useable power curve. I respect what those supras can do, it is very impressive, but the fact that the majority of heavy hitters never seem to back up track times where their dyno numbers and mouths are is where I lose my respect for them. I have a quote from a friend about Supras... "We don't know how fast that one is because we haven't found a set of rollers for him to race on yet." Give me a built 346, 350, 383, 370, or 408 on turbo boost over the 8500+ RPM and "peaky" #s a 2jz motor makes anyday, but, that's just because of who I am, and to each their own. Nothing like having a friendly rivalry between brands and approaches, just be able to back up the smack talk .

blu00rdstr

Typical dyno chart from a Supra (first on the list on that site):



My last dyno with a stretchy/slippery belt, and it even should be much straighter lines:

vegasturbo

Hey, just to let everyone know, only two of the supras were in the 10's, and those were 6 speeds on 18inch rims. The black car (peter blach) did 9.6 @ 148 on LOW boost and the other supra (AAp motorsports) went 8.2 on drag radials! Both of these times were CLEARLY stated in the article, so before everyone begins preaching on the inefficiency of the supras power band, lets at least get the facts straight.

note: this isnt meant to say that an f-body with equal dyno wouldn't be quicker in the quarter, but merely to gain a little more perspective on the issue.

sb427f-car

Define low boost on a 2jz motor though. What is that, 18, 20#s? Yeah, you're right, we're talking about two complete different "art" forms here. No one is disagreeing they make big power and can put up some impressive 1/4 #s, but that's with the right set up, a dang good driver, and usually the better portion of the #s come from 1/8mi on. Now, 8.2 on drag radials? Is this with a 4 link "back half" conversion because I have a very hard time buying an IRS has gone 8.2 in the 1/4 on a beefed up IRS. This would be very hard even with great conditions and an excellent driver to get the car to 60 and then 330 in order to put up that numbers. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm skeptical about that.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Marko has gone 8.4's on slicks. He's made a point of driving his car back from the track... Not that many mid 8 second cars that can drive an hour home on the highway from Byron to Chicago.

777

iTrader: (21)

So am I, 8.2 on drag radials is cookin for any car, let alone a supra.

eviltwins

Post up some better dyno graphs thans omething like a T78 on a stock redline.



GT4067 Turbo. Stock shortblock, stock head + cams. 2500 RPM's of power above 500 RWHP is pretty solid if you ask me.

ryan23

iTrader: (5)

Be fair here, Peter's car was not running low boost by any definition. IIRC, when SW ran that time, it was ~33 PSI. His setup certainly has more in it, no doubt. However your post would infer 18's and pump gas. Not the case. The car wasn't racing at the power level it dyno'd at. You see that alot from this community.

As a former Supra owner (and still a mechanic on them), low boost, IE: pump gas, is going to net you somewhere in the neighborhood of 550-600 RWHP, SAFELY. Thats ~17-18 psi. There will always be the fluke case, "My buddy dyno'd 7xx RWHP on pump" or the "we built one that laid down 650..".

Not safely you didn't.

I have hours upon hours of data logs from various setups that I have personally worked on and/or friends have shared with me. Like any engine, there is a timing cap you can safely get away with, day to day, pass to pass, on pump. With that said, there are a few people running meth injection and pushing the boundaries a little bit. However, there is not enough good data to see a long term trend with it.

Back to the point though, the narrow powerband is obviously not going to be much fun on the street. In a drag race though, they are staying in the powerband, so it's a moot point. There are a number of Supras running in the low 10's and a few in the nines that are street cars. Hell, there are 3 low 10 sec street cars in my neck of the woods. Marko's car is an extreme case, full weight, deep in the eights. That's not commonplace and the AAP car referenced above, is not a street car.

I didn't post here to stir up the pot, just to get a few of the facts straight. I spend more time reading on here than posting. My personal idea of a fun street car is an LS1 powered 93' RX-7. My TEA stage II's should arriving for it in two weeks (The obligatory "I like LSx motors comment" )

Ryan

BOOSTIN86

The thing is that someone said before, that motor is built from the factory. I see a bunch of supras puting down sick numbers, and for that I wanted one for sometime. But the times the run are horrible. Most supra owners dont understand the concept of turbo lag. Big turbo....and lots of fuel will get you crazy amount of horsepower. The thing is that someoneelse also metioned there not seeing that power untill high rpms. All import motors reliy on the upper rpms to make all there power, i would know ive owned one. The 2jz is a good motor and easy to make good power but they still wont make the torque that any v8 will. thats why a 650hp v8 will womp the sh*t out of a supra with a 1,000 ponies.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

That motor had titanium rods from the factory?

I've read of stock bottom end SupTT's going low low 10's no problem.

Supras are very sharp cars, they are quite different from our F-Bodies. Supras are like heavy sports cars (to me) and F-Bodies are like plainer, muscle cars to me.

BOOSTIN86

Suposively the supra bottom end can hold 1,000hp with stock rods and pistons. The fact of the matter is how well its tuned. ive seen people blow the bottom ends with fully forged internals. Its just how much timing advance and knock the motor will be able to with stand.

ryan23

iTrader: (5)

2JZ's don't have Ti rods. They run a very stout forged crank (Akin to an LS1), forged rods and an excellent cast (Hypereutectic) piston. The 2 bolt main caps are narrow and would make the average Chevy guy cringe.The blocks are stout though and the mains don't become a concern until <1000 RWHP (walking). The factory rod bolts are a weak link and head studs are always a good idea. Whenever I build a "basic" motor for them, I use the standard ARP mains/rods/cylinder head studs (~$300) and follow it up with an extensive blueprint. I *personally* rate them safe (on the street/strip) to ~700RWHP (Yet to have one come back). Any aspirations of going north of that figure and I push for Carillo rods/rodbolts and perform a few tweaks here and there . The stock pistons I personally recommend as they don't slap and they work in concert with the oil squirters. The stock pistons have oil passages at the bottom of the piston which leads to an oil "hoop" cast into the piston itself. The hoop is located below the piston dome and works well at pulling heat out. The skirts are also coated with an antifriction coating from the factory. Up top, the cams start holding you back around ~600 RWHP. Cam upgrade with some stout springs will let you pull it to 8500 routinely. OEM headgasket is top notch. Those are the basics. I have some pics to compare with the LS1 as we debated the merits of both motors over at supraforums awhile back. Enjoy:

My LS1 bottom end with a 2JZ main cap for comparison:



A stock 2JZ rod versus my Callies rod:



A Mahle piston vs the stock toyota piston (Note wrist pin dia.)



ARP head stud for my LS1 vs a stock Toyota head bolt (.638 and .601 respectively):




FWIW, the stock bottom ends will live for some nutty dyno pull #'s but don't get caught up in the hype. Start loading them down on the street at that power level and you'll be in line for a new shortblock.

Ryan