what qualities make a "better" wastegate?
08-09-2005, 11:47 AM
#1
what qualities make a "better" wastegate? What qualities measure how good a wastegate is? I know flow is important, but what else? Is there a sensitivity measure? Do some wastegates start to open and vent exhaust pressure before they reach their set boot?
I saw that Turbosmart wastegates were better than Tials... just wondered how you rated one over the other.
I know externals are supposed to be better, but what is the best internal wastegate setup to run?
I saw that Turbosmart wastegates were better than Tials... just wondered how you rated one over the other.
I know externals are supposed to be better, but what is the best internal wastegate setup to run?
08-09-2005, 11:52 AM
#2
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maybe the quality of metal, kind of like comparing metal with piping for dp's and intercoolers, etc...
or maybe the types of springs they use, maybe has to do with the quality of the spring inside. if it is too loose of a spring it would leak pressure and vice versa?
No idea, just taking a guess.
or maybe the types of springs they use, maybe has to do with the quality of the spring inside. if it is too loose of a spring it would leak pressure and vice versa?
No idea, just taking a guess.
08-09-2005, 01:04 PM
#3
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Just a quick run down.....but
Valve material
Casting quality
Consistent spring pressures
Valve lift
Casing flow....
To put it this way...a single turbosmart 38mm keeps my T88 at 5-6psi stable on a 383. The tial 38 didn't...we tested different springs as well. Just not enough valve flow and casing flow.
Valve material
Casting quality
Consistent spring pressures
Valve lift
Casing flow....
To put it this way...a single turbosmart 38mm keeps my T88 at 5-6psi stable on a 383. The tial 38 didn't...we tested different springs as well. Just not enough valve flow and casing flow.
08-09-2005, 01:33 PM
#4
Thanks for the input...
Say a wastegate is set to open at 5 psi and around 3psi it starts to creep open, venting exhaust pressure.... and then is fully opened by the time it is at 5psi. Is this something that happens or do most wastegates eliminate this issue and open right on the dot at the pressure they are set??
Say a wastegate is set to open at 5 psi and around 3psi it starts to creep open, venting exhaust pressure.... and then is fully opened by the time it is at 5psi. Is this something that happens or do most wastegates eliminate this issue and open right on the dot at the pressure they are set??
Originally Posted by JZ 97 SS 1500
Just a quick run down.....but
Valve material
Casting quality
Consistent spring pressures
Valve lift
Casing flow....
To put it this way...a single turbosmart 38mm keeps my T88 at 5-6psi stable on a 383. The tial 38 didn't...we tested different springs as well. Just not enough valve flow and casing flow.
Valve material
Casting quality
Consistent spring pressures
Valve lift
Casing flow....
To put it this way...a single turbosmart 38mm keeps my T88 at 5-6psi stable on a 383. The tial 38 didn't...we tested different springs as well. Just not enough valve flow and casing flow.
08-09-2005, 01:39 PM
#5
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Well that will depend on the boost controller. But if the wastegate is flying solo and no lines are ran to it, they way it will operate is the valve will unseat itself a little before the full pressure is reached. Which will add some lag since you are now prematurely venting exhaust energy. Thats why the newer boost controllers blow into the WG to hold the gate closed until the precise boost is hit.
08-09-2005, 01:44 PM
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What I'm talking about is illustrated in the graph below.... Its a Turbosmart E-boost vs a Greddy Profec B
As you can see the Turbosmart has precise control to shut the gate closed...so torque #'s will be higher since boost comes on sooner and harder. As for peak HP # numbers...well those stay the same since the boost was set the same on both controllers. You can see though what holding the gate closed precisly can do for your hp and torque curves.
As you can see the Turbosmart has precise control to shut the gate closed...so torque #'s will be higher since boost comes on sooner and harder. As for peak HP # numbers...well those stay the same since the boost was set the same on both controllers. You can see though what holding the gate closed precisly can do for your hp and torque curves.
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08-09-2005, 02:47 PM
#8
Awesome, thanks for the info... what are some other boost controllers comperable to the eBoost? I am just looking for functionality, not really worried about glitz...
Can they work with internal and external wastegates?
Can they work with internal and external wastegates?
Originally Posted by JZ 97 SS 1500
Well that will depend on the boost controller. But if the wastegate is flying solo and no lines are ran to it, they way it will operate is the valve will unseat itself a little before the full pressure is reached. Which will add some lag since you are now prematurely venting exhaust energy. Thats why the newer boost controllers blow into the WG to hold the gate closed until the precise boost is hit.
08-09-2005, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Spambell
We no longer use the tial 38mm stuff because of the problems with their products. All of our systems come standerd with the turbosmart gates.
Fastkat, as far as other comparable units, well the MSD controller is nice, but you need a PHD to operate it. Also the Apex and blitz are nice as well, but the fuzzy logic crap sucks. They will work with internal and external.
Jose
08-09-2005, 03:48 PM
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A there are some simple solid manual boost controllers too..
I'm delibarately running alot of boost with a properly sized and port matched turbine housing & free flowing turbo back exhaust.. I run a SCM PTE with a internal gate... I never plan on trying to run it on low boost under 20... Therefore it regulates just fine... But I have friends with external gates running manual boost controllers on them with great success...
I'm delibarately running alot of boost with a properly sized and port matched turbine housing & free flowing turbo back exhaust.. I run a SCM PTE with a internal gate... I never plan on trying to run it on low boost under 20... Therefore it regulates just fine... But I have friends with external gates running manual boost controllers on them with great success...
08-09-2005, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JZ 97 SS 1500
What I'm talking about is illustrated in the graph below.... Its a Turbosmart E-boost vs a Greddy Profec B
As you can see the Turbosmart has precise control to shut the gate closed...so torque #'s will be higher since boost comes on sooner and harder. As for peak HP # numbers...well those stay the same since the boost was set the same on both controllers. You can see though what holding the gate closed precisly can do for your hp and torque curves.
As you can see the Turbosmart has precise control to shut the gate closed...so torque #'s will be higher since boost comes on sooner and harder. As for peak HP # numbers...well those stay the same since the boost was set the same on both controllers. You can see though what holding the gate closed precisly can do for your hp and torque curves.
08-09-2005, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Boostaholic
I call BS on the difference in thoes graphs, unless there was a defective boost controller or something horrible on the lower #s
It is a boost controller with a anti wastgate creep design.
There are two ports on the wastegate each is ported to a different side of the piston. the better EBC vents compressor outlet boost reference pressure to the side of the piston which pushes the gate shut. Once the desired boost is reached it switches a solenoid to another line going to the side which opens the gate.
It in effect toggles the gate much like how a two port blow off valve works...
Its a good system that could be closely matched by a simple adjustable hobbs pressure switch and 3 way solenoid... It does'nt take a screw driver and a calibrated pressure source to setup like that would...
08-09-2005, 09:36 PM
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I cant answer that I dont know the meaning of low boost... My autometer procomp mech boost gauge goes up to 35psi because I need it...
JZ knows his shiznit. If he says the tial cant keep up on a big engine running low boost he means it.
Engine displacement, turbine housing size and what turbine wheel also mater.
If you have no tial right now dont buy it and get the T-smart....
If you are a boost nut with cheap high octane fuel (ethanol) around town like me then dont worry be boost happy...
JZ knows his shiznit. If he says the tial cant keep up on a big engine running low boost he means it.
Engine displacement, turbine housing size and what turbine wheel also mater.
If you have no tial right now dont buy it and get the T-smart....
If you are a boost nut with cheap high octane fuel (ethanol) around town like me then dont worry be boost happy...
08-10-2005, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by frcefed98
What about the Tial 44mm WG's? Do they have this same issue too?(348ci-GT42 setup)
Thanks,
J
Thanks,
J
08-10-2005, 07:48 AM
#18
Question for Jose I agree in principle with a rapid-acting wastegate controller. BUT, without some sort of 'fuzzy logic' controller, it seems that you could get into a situation where the wastegate begins oscillating. That is, at the pre-set boost limit, the valve rapidly OPENS to bleed exhaust => pressure drops => valve slams shut => pressure rises...etc. How is this damped? Having the 'premature bleed' in the standard arrangement produces a more gradual transition.
From the old days of using a bellcrank to adjust the wastegate actuator on my first turbo car [VW Scirocco 20 yrs ago
], we have come a long way. When you first posted info on the EBoost2, it sounded quite good. So, please help clarify this. I haven't really found the info available out there.
From the old days of using a bellcrank to adjust the wastegate actuator on my first turbo car [VW Scirocco 20 yrs ago
], we have come a long way. When you first posted info on the EBoost2, it sounded quite good. So, please help clarify this. I haven't really found the info available out there.
08-10-2005, 10:21 AM
#19
Originally Posted by MTBDOC
I agree in principle with a rapid-acting wastegate controller. BUT, without some sort of 'fuzzy logic' controller, it seems that you could get into a situation where the wastegate begins oscillating. That is, at the pre-set boost limit, the valve rapidly OPENS to bleed exhaust => pressure drops => valve slams shut => pressure rises...etc. How is this damped? Having the 'premature bleed' in the standard arrangement produces a more gradual transition.
08-10-2005, 12:03 PM
#20
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Ok...lots of questions here. First the Tial 38 is ok if your not trying to run low boost...BUT, on a stock LS1 engine you don't have much choice but to run low boost.
As for the 44, I have not tested it, but our main problem with Tial is inconsistent spring pressures.
As for boost controller, they all work in a oscillating fashion. The differene is if you can control the osciallations. The E-boost has these functions which is nice. It allows you to adjust how soon you want that oscillation to begin...and so forth.
As for the 44, I have not tested it, but our main problem with Tial is inconsistent spring pressures.
As for boost controller, they all work in a oscillating fashion. The differene is if you can control the osciallations. The E-boost has these functions which is nice. It allows you to adjust how soon you want that oscillation to begin...and so forth.