IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED"
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From: CANADA
IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" After reading some posts i get the impression that (correct me if i am wrong) that some guys when dynoing there engines are shooting for retarted timeing between 16 and 12 degrees, and that they see lower timeing # as makeing more power.
i work on turbo engines fueled by natural gas every day,
KEEP IN MIND THAT THESE ENGINES HAVE A GOVENER AND ARE RUNNING AT CONSTANT LOAD AND SET RPM.
i tune these engines for as much ignition advance as fuel quality will allow, usually 20 to 25 degrees btdc,
the only time i retard the engines timeing , usually no lower than 15 degrees , is when they are not loaded very much and are running in vacume. (throttle plate closed)
I do this to raise the boost pressure and raise engine oil tempature to
160 deg f to help flash off oil contaminants to prevent acid build up in the oil.
retarding the timeing,creates heat ,lowers power , causeing the throttle plates to open up and run the engine ,( at the same load) at higher manifold pressure.
so why would anyone try to tune there engine with as much retarted timeing as possible
when it makes less power? <img border="0" alt="[bang head]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_banghead.gif" />
i work on turbo engines fueled by natural gas every day,
KEEP IN MIND THAT THESE ENGINES HAVE A GOVENER AND ARE RUNNING AT CONSTANT LOAD AND SET RPM.
i tune these engines for as much ignition advance as fuel quality will allow, usually 20 to 25 degrees btdc,
the only time i retard the engines timeing , usually no lower than 15 degrees , is when they are not loaded very much and are running in vacume. (throttle plate closed)
I do this to raise the boost pressure and raise engine oil tempature to
160 deg f to help flash off oil contaminants to prevent acid build up in the oil.
retarding the timeing,creates heat ,lowers power , causeing the throttle plates to open up and run the engine ,( at the same load) at higher manifold pressure.
so why would anyone try to tune there engine with as much retarted timeing as possible
when it makes less power? <img border="0" alt="[bang head]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_banghead.gif" />
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MIDENGINE LVR:
<strong> i tune these engines for as much ignition advance as fuel quality will allow</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You answered your own question.
CNG has a very high effective octane compaired to pump gas. Alot of guys here are running high CR motors, and sub 94 octane. Middle teens on advance is about all the motor will take before detonation.
And people aren't retarding to make power, that's where the engine is happy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
FWIW, on 110 i run 31° to 33° BTDC and 15+ psi.
You should understand the trade off between boost, octane, and advance if you tune for a living.
<strong> i tune these engines for as much ignition advance as fuel quality will allow</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You answered your own question.
CNG has a very high effective octane compaired to pump gas. Alot of guys here are running high CR motors, and sub 94 octane. Middle teens on advance is about all the motor will take before detonation.
And people aren't retarding to make power, that's where the engine is happy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
FWIW, on 110 i run 31° to 33° BTDC and 15+ psi.
You should understand the trade off between boost, octane, and advance if you tune for a living.
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From: CANADA
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" yes i understand the trade off between ignition octane and boost, as far as answering my own question, i through it out there so people who dont understand might be enlighten as to how it all really works,and not be mislead by the message i read where the guy was bragging about how little timeing he was running for his performance #s
i have been doing this for 20 years, and in the past i have found that people with your type of arrogant attitude are ussally the ones that melt things down!!!
how can you live with your self thinking your so smart???????? take a holiday !!!!!!!!!
i have been doing this for 20 years, and in the past i have found that people with your type of arrogant attitude are ussally the ones that melt things down!!!
how can you live with your self thinking your so smart???????? take a holiday !!!!!!!!!
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" MID, welcome to board. You need to grow a thicker skin, Harlan did not go off on you... Plus, he's totally right... "as much as the gas allows" that's the key right there. LS1s stock are 10:1 engines that run about 26 degrees of timing advance at WOT. Start pushing 6 lbs of boost thru that on 92 octane and the motor is gonna get a lot of pre-ignition... By ramping back the timing it will get the point of combustion back to where it should be...
Also, Harlan works for the company that makes our cars, and he's been known to tune them for his employer too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Also, Harlan works for the company that makes our cars, and he's been known to tune them for his employer too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
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From: CANADA
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" hi john maybe your right ,thicker skin and more hair,lots more hair,
i guess i assume that anyone running a performance turbo set would naturally run 110 or 112 fuel, or at least run a 50/50 mix.
i guess i assume that anyone running a performance turbo set would naturally run 110 or 112 fuel, or at least run a 50/50 mix.
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" Whoa, easy killer.
Let's say you linked to said post, then your question may have actually appeared to be a statement.
and second, your statement was far from enlightening on "how it all works".
as for my attitude, you had better re-think your response. I can live my life just fine knowing i am that smart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Seems there are a couple Ivy League degrees somewhere around the house and a job i go to every day where calibration in car, or at a dyno cell is a daily event.
Feel free to share your wisdom, but make a point with it. And if you think I have an attitude, you really need to get out more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Let's say you linked to said post, then your question may have actually appeared to be a statement.
and second, your statement was far from enlightening on "how it all works".
as for my attitude, you had better re-think your response. I can live my life just fine knowing i am that smart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Seems there are a couple Ivy League degrees somewhere around the house and a job i go to every day where calibration in car, or at a dyno cell is a daily event.
Feel free to share your wisdom, but make a point with it. And if you think I have an attitude, you really need to get out more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
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Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" Are you finished? Good, now you can go back to banging your dog. Maybe he can teach you to spell too. Moron
<small>[ March 29, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: A DEE O ]</small>
<small>[ March 29, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: A DEE O ]</small>
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From: ohio
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" Ask a question, get an answer from an experienced individual, stick your head up your ***, then reply. No wait, your head was already up your ***, could you stick it up further? I think not. If you have worked in a forced induction field for 20 years then the question should be rhetorical, and although I dont personally know Harlan, the answer was informative and to the point. What I am trying to say Jeb is, don't be mad at anyone because cousin Jenny wont go home with you tonight.
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Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" I just want to know one thing.
What part of Harlan's first response did you feel was arrogant? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
All I saw was him trying to explain why most people here are retarding their timing. That's something you asked about in your first post.
I think you just read into his response wrong and took it as him talking down to you. I don't think he was though.
There really was no reason to get so fired up and that is why people are jumping on you.
Just an Observers point of view. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
John
What part of Harlan's first response did you feel was arrogant? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
All I saw was him trying to explain why most people here are retarding their timing. That's something you asked about in your first post.
I think you just read into his response wrong and took it as him talking down to you. I don't think he was though.
There really was no reason to get so fired up and that is why people are jumping on you.
Just an Observers point of view. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
John
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From: CANADA
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" hi john, the part that bothered me was
"you should understand the tradeoff between boost, octane, and advance, if i tune for a living"
and that i answered my own question.
if you read what i wrote regarding the engine set up, i think it would be obvious that i understand this, the engines i work on usually have 9.5 inch bore and are in the price range of 500,000. to 1.5 million dollars,rangeing from inline 6,s to v16s, i have to know my **** with that big of liabilty.
anyway regarding my question and maybe it did not come out right, i asked why would anyone try to tune there engine with as much retarded timeing as possible,
the post i read previous to starting this whole mess, the person stated that he made power at 15 degrees and better at 12, maybe i missunderstood it but it sounded like he was trying to make more power by retarding the timeing instead of trying to shoot for as much advance as possible.
wanting to try to interact on this site,as i have never done before 'on any site'
i figured out how to start a discussion because i wanted to throw it out there for kids that were just learning that this was wrong.
i thought this was like a chat line and info came out from group discussion.
anyways i have 20 years of engine building exsperience and 6 months of computer experience.
sorry for any offence.
"you should understand the tradeoff between boost, octane, and advance, if i tune for a living"
and that i answered my own question.
if you read what i wrote regarding the engine set up, i think it would be obvious that i understand this, the engines i work on usually have 9.5 inch bore and are in the price range of 500,000. to 1.5 million dollars,rangeing from inline 6,s to v16s, i have to know my **** with that big of liabilty.
anyway regarding my question and maybe it did not come out right, i asked why would anyone try to tune there engine with as much retarded timeing as possible,
the post i read previous to starting this whole mess, the person stated that he made power at 15 degrees and better at 12, maybe i missunderstood it but it sounded like he was trying to make more power by retarding the timeing instead of trying to shoot for as much advance as possible.
wanting to try to interact on this site,as i have never done before 'on any site'
i figured out how to start a discussion because i wanted to throw it out there for kids that were just learning that this was wrong.
i thought this was like a chat line and info came out from group discussion.
anyways i have 20 years of engine building exsperience and 6 months of computer experience.
sorry for any offence.
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Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" Well, I don't think anything mean spirited was meant but, I can't speak for someone else.
I don't know what post you saw where somebody made more power with less timing so I can't comment on that either. What was the title of the thread? Most people understand that more timing means more power up to the limits of the octane being used.
I think if you stick around here for a while you'll see that it's a pretty good group of people here. It's usually a misunderstanding that gets things heading in the wrong direction. That happens every once in a while when you bring people together from all over the globe. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Anyway, take care. Do you have an LS1 that you're thinking of throwing some boost at?
John
I don't know what post you saw where somebody made more power with less timing so I can't comment on that either. What was the title of the thread? Most people understand that more timing means more power up to the limits of the octane being used.
I think if you stick around here for a while you'll see that it's a pretty good group of people here. It's usually a misunderstanding that gets things heading in the wrong direction. That happens every once in a while when you bring people together from all over the globe. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Anyway, take care. Do you have an LS1 that you're thinking of throwing some boost at?
John
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From: CANADA
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" hi john ,
ive got a m6gt mclarn cam am car (it looks like the coyote on hardcastle and mcormic)presently running a midengine 1968 350 chev, porsche g 50 transaxel, 2100 lbs
i purchased 2# t4s and am starting an LS1 twin turbo project .
i was going to put a picture of it by my name but i havent figured out how to do that yet.
ive got a m6gt mclarn cam am car (it looks like the coyote on hardcastle and mcormic)presently running a midengine 1968 350 chev, porsche g 50 transaxel, 2100 lbs
i purchased 2# t4s and am starting an LS1 twin turbo project .
i was going to put a picture of it by my name but i havent figured out how to do that yet.
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MIDENGINE LVR:
<strong> HARLAN
argueing on the internet is like winning the special olympics, even if you win!
your still retarded! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
a pissing match will get you no where. You can take my comments as you see fit.
However, i simply stated facts.
Your experience can benefit the group, if you choose to hold back your holier than thou attitude.
I moderate here and share my knowledge because i want people to have good results with their setups. The hundreds of hours i've logged on the dyno and at the track with my setup, tuning it myself, are up for public consumption. Arrogant?
If you have something productive to share, by all means. But to show up, brag about how you work with motors that cost more than most people here make in 10 years, and then say without explaination that they don't have a clue is arrogance in my book.
The info is here, just ask.
off my soap box now, enjoy your stay
<strong> HARLAN
argueing on the internet is like winning the special olympics, even if you win!
your still retarded! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
a pissing match will get you no where. You can take my comments as you see fit.
However, i simply stated facts.
Your experience can benefit the group, if you choose to hold back your holier than thou attitude.
I moderate here and share my knowledge because i want people to have good results with their setups. The hundreds of hours i've logged on the dyno and at the track with my setup, tuning it myself, are up for public consumption. Arrogant?
If you have something productive to share, by all means. But to show up, brag about how you work with motors that cost more than most people here make in 10 years, and then say without explaination that they don't have a clue is arrogance in my book.
The info is here, just ask.
off my soap box now, enjoy your stay
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From: CANADA
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" please dont play it off as though i am playing people down and bragging myself up, i just stated facts , i dont want to fight with anyone it is unproductive, if you feel threatened just say so, i have nothing to sell.
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From: Phoenix, AZ
Re: IGNITION TIMEING " BOOSTED" Well, to get back to the subject . . .
I have asked this question and can seem to get no hard answers . . . as was stated, you keep timing as high as possible to the limits of the fuel you're running . . . that makes sense. But now you've added boost. Let's say you can run 5psi with about 22 degrees of timing on 91 octane. You're running to the limits of the fuel, as you get knock when you bump it to 23 degrees. But does it make sense to pull back an additional 6 degrees so you're at 17 degrees, and then run more boost? What's the tradeoff? I hear some people say minimal timing, maximum boost, and then other people say the exact opposite. Has anyone tried both approaches on the same car on the same day at a dyno session and validated?
- Dug
<small>[ March 31, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: ChevyNo1 ]</small>
I have asked this question and can seem to get no hard answers . . . as was stated, you keep timing as high as possible to the limits of the fuel you're running . . . that makes sense. But now you've added boost. Let's say you can run 5psi with about 22 degrees of timing on 91 octane. You're running to the limits of the fuel, as you get knock when you bump it to 23 degrees. But does it make sense to pull back an additional 6 degrees so you're at 17 degrees, and then run more boost? What's the tradeoff? I hear some people say minimal timing, maximum boost, and then other people say the exact opposite. Has anyone tried both approaches on the same car on the same day at a dyno session and validated?
- Dug
<small>[ March 31, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: ChevyNo1 ]</small>