Yet another head gasket issue
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Yet another head gasket issue Okay guys, I have read up on some of the head gasket posts, but would like your opinions, please. I have TEA 5.7 stage 1.5 o-ringed heads with the 73cc chambers, ARP studs, and Fel-Pro graphite gaskets. I am making around 650 at around 10psi. Over the weekend I took my b-in-law for a joy ride and I guess I blew a gasket without knowing it. Last night took the car out and the Check Gauges light came on. My temp gauge was pegged. I have a ScanGauge and it showed coolant temp as 258*. 
The plan is to take it apart, make sure the heads are true and put it back together after machining the heads if necessary. Now, should I remove the o-rings and go with GM MLS gaskets, or leave the o-rings, go back with the Fel-Pros and just torque the heads a little tighter, or what? If I pull the o-rings, will the grooves present a problem? Also, is it possible the block warped too? (LS6 block). Please give any details as to torque specs, sealing agents, or anything else that will help keep this from happening again. Since the new motor and s/c went in, the shop has had my car 3 times as long as me.
Any help you guys can provide is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
The plan is to take it apart, make sure the heads are true and put it back together after machining the heads if necessary. Now, should I remove the o-rings and go with GM MLS gaskets, or leave the o-rings, go back with the Fel-Pros and just torque the heads a little tighter, or what? If I pull the o-rings, will the grooves present a problem? Also, is it possible the block warped too? (LS6 block). Please give any details as to torque specs, sealing agents, or anything else that will help keep this from happening again. Since the new motor and s/c went in, the shop has had my car 3 times as long as me.
Any help you guys can provide is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
First thing is to check the indention made by the orings into the steel firing ring in the head gasket. If it's not centered or is off the steel ring, there's your problem. You may want to try the oem graphite gasket (early non MLS steel layered) and see if the firing ring in it matches your orings better than felpro. I wouldn't try removing the rings and using a MLS gasket...I'd do new heads first with the MLS. Your block is probably ok unless you beat on it at 250.
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Originally Posted by onfire
First thing is to check the indention made by the orings into the steel firing ring in the head gasket. If it's not centered or is off the steel ring, there's your problem. You may want to try the oem graphite gasket (early non MLS steel layered) and see if the firing ring in it matches your orings better than felpro. I wouldn't try removing the rings and using a MLS gasket...I'd do new heads first with the MLS. Your block is probably ok unless you beat on it at 250.
I asked my engine builder about the o-ring mating to the fire ring and he said it was good. He also new it was for FI and gapped the rings a little wider, which may have allowed the coolant to squeeze by the rings.
At what temp will the heads warp? When I was breaking it in , it hit 250, or so a couple of times stuck in traffic (had ATI fan wired backwards). Might have warped the heads a little then, but it has been down the track WOT 15, or so, times with no noticeable issues. Just since this weekend's joy riding w/my b-in-law.
Last edited by 1bad2k2ta; Nov 29, 2005 at 08:46 AM.
after you replace the gaskets, try to find out why you blew a head gasket, was there detonation?, id get a wideband on it checking the AFR and log it to see if theres any knock.
it sounds like your tune should be tweaked some
it sounds like your tune should be tweaked some
Alot of time's you can blow gaskets with too much timing/low octain fuel. This ussually will not show KR. More than likely you had the car tuned in hot weather.Now that the air is alot better the tune is way off.
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Originally Posted by smokinHawk
after you replace the gaskets, try to find out why you blew a head gasket, was there detonation?, id get a wideband on it checking the AFR and log it to see if theres any knock.
it sounds like your tune should be tweaked some
it sounds like your tune should be tweaked some
You really won't know how well the o-ring mated to the firing ring until you pull the heads and check indentation. You might want to try the new rubber coated copper gaskets. No worries about a fire ring mate. Brains is using them....pm him.
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Another thing is they usually deck the block when you are haveing one build so I think you are good on the block side if that is the case. The heads are a different story you won't really know until you pull them and check them. Like you said you didn't run it like that very long so chances are you are ok. I don't know what you TQ the heads down the last time, but I did mine at 75. I don't have O-rings just MLS gaskets so I can't tell you if it is any better or not. Good luck!
Jeff
Jeff
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Originally Posted by Inspector12
Another thing is they usually deck the block when you are haveing one build so I think you are good on the block side if that is the case. The heads are a different story you won't really know until you pull them and check them. Like you said you didn't run it like that very long so chances are you are ok. I don't know what you TQ the heads down the last time, but I did mine at 75. I don't have O-rings just MLS gaskets so I can't tell you if it is any better or not. Good luck!
Jeff
Jeff
ARP says 65. I have done a little testing and I found that for FI it is a little low JMO! I know of a few others that said they were doing 80, but I haven't had any real head issues so I have sayed with what worked for me etc...You will figuer it out just spend that extra time and clean the sealing surfaces real good. What Onfire said about the silicone coated copper gaskets is true. Brains and Zangel have had good luck with them you might drop him a PM and see if they are compatible with your O-ringed heads. Chances are good I would believe.
Jeff
Jeff
Hope all is well. 
Sux, you have a recurring problem and it makes you second guess whether the problem is the head gaskets, uneven deck surface, uneven head surface, a fuel system issue, or a tune issue.
Only thing I would do is check it all and richen up your tune. Some dynos are off by .5 in AF, even more, so you might be more lean than you think but that's just one of about 6 possibilities.
Only thing I would do is check it all and richen up your tune. Some dynos are off by .5 in AF, even more, so you might be more lean than you think but that's just one of about 6 possibilities.
LOL Hey Jeff. This guy here is local. And I told him the 75 trick also Hope all is well
Sux, you have a recurring problem and it makes you second guess whether the problem is the head gaskets, uneven deck surface, uneven head surface, a fuel system issue, or a tune issue.
Only thing I would do is check it all and richen up your tune. Some dynos are off by .5 in AF, even more, so you might be more lean than you think but that's just one of about 6 possibilities.
Only thing I would do is check it all and richen up your tune. Some dynos are off by .5 in AF, even more, so you might be more lean than you think but that's just one of about 6 possibilities.
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Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
Sux, you have a recurring problem and it makes you second guess whether the problem is the head gaskets, uneven deck surface, uneven head surface, a fuel system issue, or a tune issue.
Only thing I would do is check it all and richen up your tune. Some dynos are off by .5 in AF, even more, so you might be more lean than you think but that's just one of about 6 possibilities.
Only thing I would do is check it all and richen up your tune. Some dynos are off by .5 in AF, even more, so you might be more lean than you think but that's just one of about 6 possibilities.
. This is the first time I have blown a head gasket. Just haven't got all the kinks out of my setup and it has been 5 months, just one thing after another, getting old and wearing me and my bank account down. When the heads come off, the deck and heads will be checked. I have a Bosche 420lph external pump, 65 lb/hr Mototrons, and my tuner is a very meticulous guy. I am thinking the whole thing was my fault for not watching the tach and letting the thing bang the rev limiter in 1st and 2nd causing a lean condition. I met you at the track a few weeks ago after the races. I sent you a PM but never got a reply. I would still like your opinion on that matter as well.
Thanks
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You don't mention other problems except the gauge reading high. Does it mis-fire? Was it low on coolant? Was the fan on? Have you block tested it and pressure tested it to see if it has another leak maybe? Just want to make sure the heads are definitely ruled as the problem. I would hate to see you pull the heads and they weren't the problem.
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Monday evening when I tried to fire it in the garage, it acted like the battery was dead, only all my gauges and lights worked. It wouldn't turn over until after the 6th or 7th attempt. In hindsight, this tells me there was coolant in at least one cylinder. Once the coolant was pushed back throught the gasket, it turned over, and fired right up. It idled a little rough, but it had not warmed up. It was cool so I didn't think anything about it steaming out the exhaust at first, but it never stopped until there was almost no coolant left. Once I put water in the radiator, it started steaming again and you could occasionally catch a whif of coolant. I have no doubt it is a head gasket.
Saying hello to the rev limiter a couple times shouldn't pop o-ringed head gaskets IMO, it takes some good detonation or poor sealing surfaces to do this. Pull the heads and see how things look. My guess is you'll see things weren't mating well or signs of detonation.