E85 boosted setup
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Originally Posted by Got Me SOM
if you dumped this e85 into your tank with no tuning what would happen? lean out?
this is interesting.
this is interesting.
Just like if someone bolted on a turbo or SC and did no fuel system mods...
You guys do know that when text is a different color and underlined like in my previous posts it is actually a link right? Maybe... Just maybe I have gone over all that already!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by V8_DSM_V8again
Ethanol stoich 9:1 Gas 14.7
sAFR = .85 x 9 + .15 x 14.7
sAFR = 9.855
And for calculating from a known 12.5 FAR to what you would need to run with a blend...
Again E85 as an example..
FAR= (12.5/14.7 ) x 9.855
FAR= 8.380
There you go how to compenate for E10 thru E98... Just do the math..
if you started with a gasoline burn at 12:5 (on a gasoline meter) took out x% gasoline and added the same x% alky back, the ratio would lean out. but so what. you would see the a/f increase and you would adjust for it.. right back down to your 12.5 desired. (this fuel you just added is the difference in fuel consumption btween the two fuels, and it increases the more alky you run)
best lambda for power is the same for either fuel, like .85. the conversion for this lambda to the gasoline calibrated meter is 12.5:1. as long as you stay using a gasoline meter, (and not some combo meter that you speak of), everything stays the same.
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Originally Posted by MIGHTYMOUSE
i used to think something along these lines needed to happen, however now i completely disagree. you are using infomation based on an air fuel meter calibrated to read x% alky and x% gasoline. well we don't have that tool to use; the tool we have is a gasoline calibrated meter.
if you started with a gasoline burn at 12:5 (on a gasoline meter) took out x% gasoline and added the same x% alky back, the ratio would lean out. but so what. you would see the a/f increase and you would adjust for it.. right back down to your 12.5 desired. (this fuel you just added is the difference in fuel consumption btween the two fuels, and it increases the more alky you run)
best lambda for power is the same for either fuel, like .85. the conversion for this lambda to the gasoline calibrated meter is 12.5:1. as long as you stay using a gasoline meter, (and not some combo meter that you speak of), everything stays the same.
if you started with a gasoline burn at 12:5 (on a gasoline meter) took out x% gasoline and added the same x% alky back, the ratio would lean out. but so what. you would see the a/f increase and you would adjust for it.. right back down to your 12.5 desired. (this fuel you just added is the difference in fuel consumption btween the two fuels, and it increases the more alky you run)
best lambda for power is the same for either fuel, like .85. the conversion for this lambda to the gasoline calibrated meter is 12.5:1. as long as you stay using a gasoline meter, (and not some combo meter that you speak of), everything stays the same.
About the whole AFR and o2 sensor reading 100% right... Like I said a number of posts back.. A lean o2 voltage is still lean, a rich still rich and a stoich still stoich...
However if calculating fuel requirements for injectors or a pump those formulas come in handy for getting the numbers close enough for the o2 feedback to trim w/o maxing fuel trims..
A narrow band sensor is open loop at WOT so you will have to dial it in yourself here by crunching numbers.. Only a wideband can run closed loop at WOT and here it will be the same voltage as a wideband on a gas only buring engine if you are at stoich...
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Not the same AFR really.... The gauge may display an AFR but its not the actual afr that is really occuring in the engine but some number the gauge puts up for a given o2 volts.
Remember the o2 sensor has no clue how much air or fuel went in so it will only read the o2 sensor voltage... In most cases a non programmable dial meter is only calibrated for gas so its marked at X on volts = 12.5 AFR... In reality an E85 motor would be around 8.30 afr but the gauge would still read 12.5....
Innovative products allows you to program the display.. I would just set it to lamda that way you just can see the air fuel ratio quality and not to have to deal with the ratio differences...
Remember the o2 sensor has no clue how much air or fuel went in so it will only read the o2 sensor voltage... In most cases a non programmable dial meter is only calibrated for gas so its marked at X on volts = 12.5 AFR... In reality an E85 motor would be around 8.30 afr but the gauge would still read 12.5....
Innovative products allows you to program the display.. I would just set it to lamda that way you just can see the air fuel ratio quality and not to have to deal with the ratio differences...
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Originally Posted by black_z
So your saying that you should still tune for the same A/F reading that a standard wideband gives you. Whether you are running E85 or regular gas?
absolutely. target afr number remains the same when using the same meter (gasoline)
there is no tool to measure the actual real mix % afr number... so why bother to calculate it
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Originally Posted by MIGHTYMOUSE
absolutely. target afr number remains the same when using the same meter (gasoline)
there is no tool to measure the actual real mix % afr number... so why bother to calculate it
there is no tool to measure the actual real mix % afr number... so why bother to calculate it
Because it will run better the first time if the fuel map is dialed in the ballpark then the O2 feedback wont have to start so far off... ETC...
When you program a standalone to use a target airfuel ratio for closed loop 24/7 o2 feed back you need this math.. The ECU does know how much air went in... on a MAF system directly... It also controls fuel delivery therefore it needs an accurate AFR to shoot for based on the airflow.. I would have a 12.5 or so at a high load setting for gas and the 8.3 on the table in the same cell for a e85 motor.. This will put the injector pulse widths damn close for either fuel.
Its like marksmanship.. You can fire a tracer and see where it goes or you can aim first.. The target AFR is trying for the right bullseye and asking the O2 how its doing..
Originally Posted by V8_DSM_V8again
You guys do know that when text is a different color and underlined like in my previous posts it is actually a link right? Maybe... Just maybe I have gone over all that already!!!!!!!!!!!
v8dsm, i get where u are comming from now.
-on a car that cannot correct wot air fuel, you can use this calculation to add fuel (ahead of time) by a % to get you in the ball park.. if you hit it right on the head then you will not lean out.. you will tell the computer to shoot for a rich setting so when the meth leans it out, it will still be 12.5 out the tailpipe.
-on a car with closed loop wide open, (me) you dont have to do anything but monitor injector duty cycle (and adjust the ve accordingly after).. the target air fuel doesn't change... keep it at 12.5
but what everyone i think is asking.. when i am on the dyno and i spray methanol, and they are looking at my a/f with a gasoline wideband.. what number should i shoot for.. that answer is.. the same, whatever u wanted before.. because the best lambda for horsepower for gasoline and alcohol is the same @ .85, and .85 lambda happens at only one point on a gasoline a/f vs. lambda graph, and that is at 12.5:1.
-on a car that cannot correct wot air fuel, you can use this calculation to add fuel (ahead of time) by a % to get you in the ball park.. if you hit it right on the head then you will not lean out.. you will tell the computer to shoot for a rich setting so when the meth leans it out, it will still be 12.5 out the tailpipe.
-on a car with closed loop wide open, (me) you dont have to do anything but monitor injector duty cycle (and adjust the ve accordingly after).. the target air fuel doesn't change... keep it at 12.5
but what everyone i think is asking.. when i am on the dyno and i spray methanol, and they are looking at my a/f with a gasoline wideband.. what number should i shoot for.. that answer is.. the same, whatever u wanted before.. because the best lambda for horsepower for gasoline and alcohol is the same @ .85, and .85 lambda happens at only one point on a gasoline a/f vs. lambda graph, and that is at 12.5:1.
sounds great, i know i would look into it if a pump was close.
but you have to remember, one that drives a car (much as i do anyway) you have to count on not getting stuck anywhere that doesnt have e85.. or always carry some way to reprogram to creep home on 93 gas
.
but you have to remember, one that drives a car (much as i do anyway) you have to count on not getting stuck anywhere that doesnt have e85.. or always carry some way to reprogram to creep home on 93 gas
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Originally Posted by MIGHTYMOUSE
v8dsm, i get where u are comming from now.
-on a car that cannot correct wot air fuel, you can use this calculation to add fuel (ahead of time) by a % to get you in the ball park.. if you hit it right on the head then you will not lean out.. you will tell the computer to shoot for a rich setting so when the meth leans it out, it will still be 12.5 out the tailpipe.
-on a car with closed loop wide open, (me) you dont have to do anything but monitor injector duty cycle (and adjust the ve accordingly after).. the target air fuel doesn't change... keep it at 12.5
but what everyone i think is asking.. when i am on the dyno and i spray methanol, and they are looking at my a/f with a gasoline wideband.. what number should i shoot for.. that answer is.. the same, whatever u wanted before.. because the best lambda for horsepower for gasoline and alcohol is the same @ .85, and .85 lambda happens at only one point on a gasoline a/f vs. lambda graph, and that is at 12.5:1.
-on a car that cannot correct wot air fuel, you can use this calculation to add fuel (ahead of time) by a % to get you in the ball park.. if you hit it right on the head then you will not lean out.. you will tell the computer to shoot for a rich setting so when the meth leans it out, it will still be 12.5 out the tailpipe.
-on a car with closed loop wide open, (me) you dont have to do anything but monitor injector duty cycle (and adjust the ve accordingly after).. the target air fuel doesn't change... keep it at 12.5
but what everyone i think is asking.. when i am on the dyno and i spray methanol, and they are looking at my a/f with a gasoline wideband.. what number should i shoot for.. that answer is.. the same, whatever u wanted before.. because the best lambda for horsepower for gasoline and alcohol is the same @ .85, and .85 lambda happens at only one point on a gasoline a/f vs. lambda graph, and that is at 12.5:1.
Now he just needs to go to the methanol clinic to get it out of his system and try running Ethanol blends thru his existing fuel system.. With the alcohol being the major fuel component and the gasoline being a cold start/drivablility additive.
Its alot more potent, consistent and tunable than using just a dribble of the other much more caustic alcohol as a knock retardant... Its also cheaper.
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Originally Posted by black_z
Yah, its not my daily driver, although I do drive it quite a bit.
Holiday, Cenex, Marathon.... ALOT of E85 stations around there.... I have driven all over MN on E85.... Road trips even..
Really want to get serious get a ECU from a FFV truck install the fuel sensor in the fuel line...
Watch your tune at first when its new but eventually or if you are close to the FFV OEM engines specs Just pump in whatever then it will trim..
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Originally Posted by black_z
Will a FFV truck ECU work in my car? My best friends dad owns a junkyard, and I get the hookup on pretty much whatever I want....
Where are you from?
Where are you from?
I dont like to advertise to the whole planet...
Well it would have to be from one of the new flex fuel trucks....
IMHO unless you find one cheap just get BS3 and a wideband...