FOD Damage
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FOD Damage After waiting for a month to get my D-1SC back from ATI, I went down to dyno it and found out my fuel system isn't enough after all. I also need to re-do my air inlet. The power levels off at 5K & drops off at 6k. It used to climb steadily up to 6500+ with the P-1SC. Oh well....
But the pisser is, when I removed the s/c to install a bigger pulley so I wouldn't hammer the fuel pump I found some impeller damage. (after 20 miles of tuning & 4 dyno pulls) I looked in the inner coolers & the air box & down the TB but couldn't find whatever it was that caused this. I'm thinking there was a small pebble inside my air filter after sitting on the shelf for months. (impact point is .075", and largest damage is .160") Whatever it was, it was small, & it's gone now...
The question I have is, how much damage can those fins take? I'm scared to run it this way even tho the tech at ATI & Bob suggested I probably could. Key word is PROBABLY could. Anyone ever run their blower with damage like this & get away with it? I'm not at all excited about taking it off & waiting another month to get the s/c back....
Thanks for any input!
PS I picked up 50hp & 100+tq even running out of air & fuel @ 10-12 psi
But the pisser is, when I removed the s/c to install a bigger pulley so I wouldn't hammer the fuel pump I found some impeller damage. (after 20 miles of tuning & 4 dyno pulls) I looked in the inner coolers & the air box & down the TB but couldn't find whatever it was that caused this. I'm thinking there was a small pebble inside my air filter after sitting on the shelf for months. (impact point is .075", and largest damage is .160") Whatever it was, it was small, & it's gone now...
The question I have is, how much damage can those fins take? I'm scared to run it this way even tho the tech at ATI & Bob suggested I probably could. Key word is PROBABLY could. Anyone ever run their blower with damage like this & get away with it? I'm not at all excited about taking it off & waiting another month to get the s/c back....
Thanks for any input!
PS I picked up 50hp & 100+tq even running out of air & fuel @ 10-12 psi
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I guess I should have said I plan to finish the race season NA, but I really want to make 1 full-on pass to compete in our local NW Top 10 Shootout. I figure I can maybe only get a 10.60 out of it with the existing air & fuel issues. So, would you try it?
Sorry to see that!
That has got to suck. If it was me I would not run it, I don't think I would take a chance of doing more.
Get with "andereck" He is full of Procharger info, Rep. I believe! He would be the best to ask in a case like this.
That has got to suck. If it was me I would not run it, I don't think I would take a chance of doing more.
Get with "andereck" He is full of Procharger info, Rep. I believe! He would be the best to ask in a case like this.
tons of people run with damaged impellers, they just dont know it.
i normally deal with damage to the exhaust side of the turbo from spitting chunks of piston through it, not so big deal on a new engine, but with the damage on the front side you stand a small chance of injesting some impeller... dunno...
but i side with ATI and bob that you will likely never notice any difference.
i normally deal with damage to the exhaust side of the turbo from spitting chunks of piston through it, not so big deal on a new engine, but with the damage on the front side you stand a small chance of injesting some impeller... dunno...
but i side with ATI and bob that you will likely never notice any difference.
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I am sure guys with the nasty 6-8 sec FI cars see this a lot, since many of them don't run air filters. But with dings in the leading edge of those blades, as much as they must flex at 60,000 rpm +, I just don't know what what the limit is.
If it did let loose, I would think the inner coolers would catch little pieces. But I also know a guy that sucked big pieces into his LT1 a few years ago when his Procharger let go.
I should have also said I made 1 limited tune pass on Friday. It ran 10.81 @ 126.3 shifting @ 6k with the bigger pulley making 10 lbs. I saw 14 during TnT & on the dyno with teh smaller pulley @ 6500.
I'm only asking all this because there is a local Top Dog Shootout on Saturday (4 to 8 cars).
If it did let loose, I would think the inner coolers would catch little pieces. But I also know a guy that sucked big pieces into his LT1 a few years ago when his Procharger let go.
I should have also said I made 1 limited tune pass on Friday. It ran 10.81 @ 126.3 shifting @ 6k with the bigger pulley making 10 lbs. I saw 14 during TnT & on the dyno with teh smaller pulley @ 6500.
I'm only asking all this because there is a local Top Dog Shootout on Saturday (4 to 8 cars).
take a file and knock down any high /thin spots where a crack can start and run it, Cant screw it up any worst then it is, just want to make sure the thing doesnt start cracking or some little barely hanging edges fly off and tear stuff up. I would check you intercooler inlet(s), thats where that stuff is most likely.
Unless the housing is all scored up I doubt you will even notice a difference in boost.
Unless the housing is all scored up I doubt you will even notice a difference in boost.
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On The Tree
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From: Boostville
WAHUSKER:
I would agree with ATI and with Bob, that you "might" get away with it for a good while. But who can really know? Could fail right away, could last for many many years. (I know I have seen many damaged like that, even on turbos, and last for years)
I know that the impellers are balanced because of the high rate of speed at which they travel. Although your damage is fairly bad, I can't see any massive cracks, or huge missing chunks. Thus I don't see the impeller further degrading.
So balance issue will be your only major concern.
I would get it replaced as soon as you can, to save your bearings on the output shaft of your blower. 62,000 rpm and an unbalanced impeller can't be easy on those bearings.
But also do as mentioned above, and make sure to take a file, and get ride of any rough edges. Cracks = bad. And can lead to further failure, or fatiuge
Hope that helps,
EA
PS: Sorry that you will have to endure the cost of the upgrade and the new impeller. I think you now have the worlds most expencive D1-SC upgrade.
I would agree with ATI and with Bob, that you "might" get away with it for a good while. But who can really know? Could fail right away, could last for many many years. (I know I have seen many damaged like that, even on turbos, and last for years)
I know that the impellers are balanced because of the high rate of speed at which they travel. Although your damage is fairly bad, I can't see any massive cracks, or huge missing chunks. Thus I don't see the impeller further degrading.
So balance issue will be your only major concern.
I would get it replaced as soon as you can, to save your bearings on the output shaft of your blower. 62,000 rpm and an unbalanced impeller can't be easy on those bearings.
But also do as mentioned above, and make sure to take a file, and get ride of any rough edges. Cracks = bad. And can lead to further failure, or fatiuge
Hope that helps,
EA
PS: Sorry that you will have to endure the cost of the upgrade and the new impeller. I think you now have the worlds most expencive D1-SC upgrade.
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Verdad Gallardo I would take andereck's advise on it. He is probably most experienced with them here. If it was my car I would run it for a while and get it fixed over the winter but I'm not going to tell anyone to take the chance of their impeller coming apart at 50K + RPM 
(disclaimer) I'd probably run it. It has some damage but as long as it's not scoring the blower or loose I would do that race. Are you down on power, I could not understand whether you were since your posts talked about various stuff.
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The blower just got put on the car, so there is no baseline to compare it to. Thus I have no idea if it lost any power. It made 50hp & 100tq more than the P series at lower rpm & running out of fuel @ 6k. But this damage could expalin why the power levels off @ 5k. Maybe it's not the inlet hat restriction that I assumed that was due to? Maybe it's vortexes at high rpms...
We took the cover off the s/c & the fan shroud is undamaged. There was a streak on the duct heading out of the blower that indicated something exited. So I took the inner coolers off & found nothing. But after the first 6 rows of passages, you're down to using a mirror & a flashlight so it's hard to say. There were no impact points on the fins or the walls in either that I could see. And nothing coming out.
I looked at the MAF, TB & intake & again found no marks at all.
File down the high spots eh? I guess the corners would be the fracture points. I was worried about destroying the balance of the impeller, since no material is gone (yet). So you think that would be safer than leaving it? I WILL send it back in over the winter. This is a temporary "can I run it" question?
We took the cover off the s/c & the fan shroud is undamaged. There was a streak on the duct heading out of the blower that indicated something exited. So I took the inner coolers off & found nothing. But after the first 6 rows of passages, you're down to using a mirror & a flashlight so it's hard to say. There were no impact points on the fins or the walls in either that I could see. And nothing coming out.
I looked at the MAF, TB & intake & again found no marks at all.
File down the high spots eh? I guess the corners would be the fracture points. I was worried about destroying the balance of the impeller, since no material is gone (yet). So you think that would be safer than leaving it? I WILL send it back in over the winter. This is a temporary "can I run it" question?
If you look real close and dont see any tears it may be OK but I would just file the real thin parts off with a very fine file the best I could and check it every once in a while.
Its your can so its entirely your call, common sense should prevail
I have done stuff like that before so dont feel bad, these days I cover the blower/turbo inlet and outlet before I even take it off the car and put the inlet hat in a sealed bag and cap all the open pipes. One dropped screw, bolt, washer etc, even something from 20 feet away can magicaly find its way in there. Thats all it takes to cost you alot of money, especially if others are around the car at all, then you never know what can get in there.
Its your can so its entirely your call, common sense should prevail
I have done stuff like that before so dont feel bad, these days I cover the blower/turbo inlet and outlet before I even take it off the car and put the inlet hat in a sealed bag and cap all the open pipes. One dropped screw, bolt, washer etc, even something from 20 feet away can magicaly find its way in there. Thats all it takes to cost you alot of money, especially if others are around the car at all, then you never know what can get in there.
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I am sorry my previous response was short, but you will probably cost yourself more grief by running it. Impeller balance is incredibly important to the life of the rest of the unit. The impeller material itself is very durable but the little notches will lead to cracks if left unattended. Do not weld the impeller! If you're in a bind do as KP (and EA ) thoughfully suggested and dress the notches. Don't try to straighten the blades with pliers, etc.
Find the object that caused the damage. Intercoolers are like a filter and whatever went through is bound to be in there. Though it could have just knocked around and be in your intake tube/filter.
After you've found the culprit call ATI and explain what happened and grovel a bit. No promises but they might just help you out some on the repair. : ) Can't hurt and they're pretty good guys.......
Service is running about 4 weeks right now due to racing season being in full swing and solid sales on new units....you'll need to try to be patient with them.
edit: missed the part where you've looked at the intercoolers. Its in there somewhere.
Find the object that caused the damage. Intercoolers are like a filter and whatever went through is bound to be in there. Though it could have just knocked around and be in your intake tube/filter.
After you've found the culprit call ATI and explain what happened and grovel a bit. No promises but they might just help you out some on the repair. : ) Can't hurt and they're pretty good guys.......
Service is running about 4 weeks right now due to racing season being in full swing and solid sales on new units....you'll need to try to be patient with them.
edit: missed the part where you've looked at the intercoolers. Its in there somewhere.
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Thanks everyone! I will take it off & use my 'points file' on the dings. If I still have that old thing.
And I tried very hard to find the object last weekend. I looked very close at the coolers. I even banged them on the garage floor to see if anything would fall out. Had all the hoses off looking in them to see if any traces or parts were in them. NADA!
ATI said they might be able to just re-balance it. But they wouldn't send me a new part, and they don't let shops like EPP work on their stuff either. So my choices are I either run it, or send it in & wait 4 weeks. I'm goin racing.
So at the end of the season when I send it back, I'll get a new impeller & bearings. What's another $850 at this point? No idea what the re-balance aprroach would cost. But I always "try to do it the right way", because I know **** like this can happen if you don't. Obivoulsy it can anyway.
And I tried very hard to find the object last weekend. I looked very close at the coolers. I even banged them on the garage floor to see if anything would fall out. Had all the hoses off looking in them to see if any traces or parts were in them. NADA!
ATI said they might be able to just re-balance it. But they wouldn't send me a new part, and they don't let shops like EPP work on their stuff either. So my choices are I either run it, or send it in & wait 4 weeks. I'm goin racing.
So at the end of the season when I send it back, I'll get a new impeller & bearings. What's another $850 at this point? No idea what the re-balance aprroach would cost. But I always "try to do it the right way", because I know **** like this can happen if you don't. Obivoulsy it can anyway.
With what head units cost new now you wont be finding any good reverse D1s for under 1500 so 850 is a better deal and you know exactly what you have. I would just clean it up and run it and keep an eye on the blades.
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I have been seriously thinking about snagging a back-up head unit after all of this. Do the Mustangs use a reverse rotation head unit like ours, or are they standard rotation?
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From: Boostville
1996-2004 4.6L Mustang (GT, Cobra, V-6's as well)
1997-2006 Corvettes
1997-2002 Camaros and Firebirds.
LT-1 Corvettes
All Use Reverse Rotation Blowers. But you have to remember that the oil slinger location is also a factor. IE: Where the oil pick up is in the blower for the self contained oil system.
The only ones on that list I gave you that have the same oil system as yours is the Mustang GT, Cobra, and V-6 and the Camaros and Firebirds. The Vettes have the wrong oil location.
That location can be changed for like $150 from ATI. (but you will have to send it in, and be down that time again) But it is possible, if you get a good enough deal on a blower.
How do I know this..... cause I bought 2 blowers used for my 4.6L car.
EA
1997-2006 Corvettes
1997-2002 Camaros and Firebirds.
LT-1 Corvettes
All Use Reverse Rotation Blowers. But you have to remember that the oil slinger location is also a factor. IE: Where the oil pick up is in the blower for the self contained oil system.
The only ones on that list I gave you that have the same oil system as yours is the Mustang GT, Cobra, and V-6 and the Camaros and Firebirds. The Vettes have the wrong oil location.
That location can be changed for like $150 from ATI. (but you will have to send it in, and be down that time again) But it is possible, if you get a good enough deal on a blower.
How do I know this..... cause I bought 2 blowers used for my 4.6L car.
EA