Alternatives to a FMIC?
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
Alternatives to a FMIC? Hey all,
I'm still planning out my Procharger setup (mainly because I can't afford to buy it yet!). I'm not sure what my HP goal is yet, and I don't know how to find out, but I'm thinking it's going to be between 700 and 1000HP. I guess we'll find out when I get there.
Ultimately, I plan on having a 408 with either a D-1SC or an F1. Now, I know that the F1 will be necessary if I want to exceed 700ish HP on the 408, but I also know that the 4.5" ICs will not cut it. However, I refuse to cut out the license plate section of my front bumper or remove the fog lights. If it were a Camaro, I wouldn't mind so much. Obviously, this will render the FMIC useless to me.
Also, I have no interest in any type of injection. I want to be able to play all day without having to fill anything other than my gas tank. I'm not slamming anyone here, but if I were going to go with meth or something like it, I'd just go for nitrous.
So, long story short (too late), I want to know if there are any alternatives to a FMIC or injection. Does anyone modify their 4.5"s? If so, how? Can you have a FMIC and the 4.5"s so that the FMIC can add just a little extra cooling and not require the front bumper to be cut up?
Better yet, has anyone come up with a slick way to utilize the hood scoop in the WS-6 to get some more air to their IC setup (whatever setup that might be)?
Thanks in advance for any info.
I'm still planning out my Procharger setup (mainly because I can't afford to buy it yet!). I'm not sure what my HP goal is yet, and I don't know how to find out, but I'm thinking it's going to be between 700 and 1000HP. I guess we'll find out when I get there.
Ultimately, I plan on having a 408 with either a D-1SC or an F1. Now, I know that the F1 will be necessary if I want to exceed 700ish HP on the 408, but I also know that the 4.5" ICs will not cut it. However, I refuse to cut out the license plate section of my front bumper or remove the fog lights. If it were a Camaro, I wouldn't mind so much. Obviously, this will render the FMIC useless to me.
Also, I have no interest in any type of injection. I want to be able to play all day without having to fill anything other than my gas tank. I'm not slamming anyone here, but if I were going to go with meth or something like it, I'd just go for nitrous.
So, long story short (too late), I want to know if there are any alternatives to a FMIC or injection. Does anyone modify their 4.5"s? If so, how? Can you have a FMIC and the 4.5"s so that the FMIC can add just a little extra cooling and not require the front bumper to be cut up?
Better yet, has anyone come up with a slick way to utilize the hood scoop in the WS-6 to get some more air to their IC setup (whatever setup that might be)?
Thanks in advance for any info.
Well without going to a bigger intercooler or meth, your cutting yourself short on options.
Not to slam you back but, 1 cheap gallon of methanol will outlast any bottle of N2O.
Will not compound the problem of detonation, and will make you more power.
Now for IC alternatives that wont require cutting the front bumper...
Ive seen people use smaller IC cores in front of the radiator, but angled down toward the ground. Using the stock air channeling to get air into the IC core before entering the radiator. But your limiting the possible size to something more akin to the pair of IC's the procharger comes with put together.
Im not sure if adding an extra intercooler with the 4.5's would benefit at all. As it would introduce more restriction and therefore more pressure drop. Maybe someone else can chime in here as Im not sure that the positive results would outweigh the negative results on something like this. Ive thought about trying something similar but dont feel like wasting the money on something untried or un-proven.
I wanted to do a smaller FMIC mounted horizontally in front of the radiator. It would be plumbed so that the air exiting each sidemount IC would go to each side of the FMIC. From there the air would exit front & center to head upwards to the throttle body.
Basically the FMIC would need to be two more small cores joined together with a center tank that holds the outlet nipple and the inlet tanks on each end.
Not to slam you back but, 1 cheap gallon of methanol will outlast any bottle of N2O.
Will not compound the problem of detonation, and will make you more power.
Now for IC alternatives that wont require cutting the front bumper...
Ive seen people use smaller IC cores in front of the radiator, but angled down toward the ground. Using the stock air channeling to get air into the IC core before entering the radiator. But your limiting the possible size to something more akin to the pair of IC's the procharger comes with put together.
Im not sure if adding an extra intercooler with the 4.5's would benefit at all. As it would introduce more restriction and therefore more pressure drop. Maybe someone else can chime in here as Im not sure that the positive results would outweigh the negative results on something like this. Ive thought about trying something similar but dont feel like wasting the money on something untried or un-proven.
I wanted to do a smaller FMIC mounted horizontally in front of the radiator. It would be plumbed so that the air exiting each sidemount IC would go to each side of the FMIC. From there the air would exit front & center to head upwards to the throttle body.
Basically the FMIC would need to be two more small cores joined together with a center tank that holds the outlet nipple and the inlet tanks on each end.
you only option would be an A2W IC, if you dont like that or any of the thing you said you didnt want, your not going to make 700rwhp or even close, unless you run alcohol as your main fuel.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
So, no FMIC + 4.5s...
Has anyone seen a FMIC used successfully on a T/A without cutting the front bumper? I was hoping that some modification to the front end of the car (modifying the air dam, modifying/removing the plastic shroud in front of the radiator, somehow routing the air from the hood scoops down to the radiator, bigger/badder fans, etc) that could be used to prevent the need for bumper modification.
Bob, have you seen anything cool like what I'm describing?
Any other suggestions or possibilities?
Has anyone seen a FMIC used successfully on a T/A without cutting the front bumper? I was hoping that some modification to the front end of the car (modifying the air dam, modifying/removing the plastic shroud in front of the radiator, somehow routing the air from the hood scoops down to the radiator, bigger/badder fans, etc) that could be used to prevent the need for bumper modification.
Bob, have you seen anything cool like what I'm describing?
Any other suggestions or possibilities?
Originally Posted by smokinHawk
you only option would be an A2W IC, if you dont like that or any of the thing you said you didnt want, your not going to make 700rwhp or even close, unless you run alcohol as your main fuel.
Thats about your only option.
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Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
Well, this leads me to a few other questions that are a bit more fundamental in nature. I want to be sure I'm understand this correctly...
1) When you say that they're a restriction at 550RW, you're saying that they won't cool the intake air enough, right? You're not saying that they become a flow issue, are you?
2) Wouldn't an increase in cubes actually decrease the boost (and increase cfm)? If so, wouldn't that decrease the intake air temps simply because the air doesn't have to be compressed quite as much?
3) Does the FMIC actually sit in front of the radiator? That's always been my assumption, but I've seen some pics that make me think it's mounted farther forward.
Thanks for the replies, guys. I don't like hearing what you're saying (
), but I still appreciate your time.
1) When you say that they're a restriction at 550RW, you're saying that they won't cool the intake air enough, right? You're not saying that they become a flow issue, are you?
2) Wouldn't an increase in cubes actually decrease the boost (and increase cfm)? If so, wouldn't that decrease the intake air temps simply because the air doesn't have to be compressed quite as much?
3) Does the FMIC actually sit in front of the radiator? That's always been my assumption, but I've seen some pics that make me think it's mounted farther forward.
Thanks for the replies, guys. I don't like hearing what you're saying (
), but I still appreciate your time. LS1 Tech Stories
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From: Anheuser Busch, Houston Texas
I would think the pressure drop on 4.5s AND an FMIC would be onerous, and the associated pipes gratuitous.
A2W...it's small, efficient and can handle your HP goal.
mild hijack - where are you in richardson? I used to live up there at coit and arapaho.
A2W...it's small, efficient and can handle your HP goal.
mild hijack - where are you in richardson? I used to live up there at coit and arapaho.
Can't have you cake and eat it too. If you rig up a unproven intercooler setup, you run the risk of it not cooling the charge effectively causing detonation, or worst. i know some cars, like a rx7 do a thing called a vmount. The angle the radiator and then put the intercooler at the top, so they form a v. So the air either goes through the rad or the intercooler. That would be completely customa dn who knows if there is enough room, on top of that any ic that would fit in that space, who knows if it could stand up to what you need.
just a side not, have you looked into air to water ic, i thought mightymouse ran one in his car and he had more power that your looking at starting with.
just a side not, have you looked into air to water ic, i thought mightymouse ran one in his car and he had more power that your looking at starting with.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
Originally Posted by lo_jack
I would think the pressure drop on 4.5s AND an FMIC would be onerous, and the associated pipes gratuitous.
A2W...it's small, efficient and can handle your HP goal.
mild hijack - where are you in richardson? I used to live up there at coit and arapaho.
A2W...it's small, efficient and can handle your HP goal.
mild hijack - where are you in richardson? I used to live up there at coit and arapaho.
What are the other considerations with the A2WIC? Would I need a bigger radiator to compensate for the extra heat? I've always been under the impression that A2W was vastly inferior to A2A except in boating applications.
(still curious about the answers to the previous 3 questions)
Originally Posted by Gauge
Well, this leads me to a few other questions that are a bit more fundamental in nature. I want to be sure I'm understand this correctly...
1) When you say that they're a restriction at 550RW, you're saying that they won't cool the intake air enough, right? You're not saying that they become a flow issue, are you?
2) Wouldn't an increase in cubes actually decrease the boost (and increase cfm)? If so, wouldn't that decrease the intake air temps simply because the air doesn't have to be compressed quite as much?
3) Does the FMIC actually sit in front of the radiator? That's always been my assumption, but I've seen some pics that make me think it's mounted farther forward.
Thanks for the replies, guys. I don't like hearing what you're saying (), but I still appreciate your time.
1) When you say that they're a restriction at 550RW, you're saying that they won't cool the intake air enough, right? You're not saying that they become a flow issue, are you?
2) Wouldn't an increase in cubes actually decrease the boost (and increase cfm)? If so, wouldn't that decrease the intake air temps simply because the air doesn't have to be compressed quite as much?
3) Does the FMIC actually sit in front of the radiator? That's always been my assumption, but I've seen some pics that make me think it's mounted farther forward.
Thanks for the replies, guys. I don't like hearing what you're saying (
), but I still appreciate your time. 1. They are a restriction caused by a flow issue
2. The PSI may drop, but the CFM goes UP, refer to #1
3. It sits against the metal frame forward of the radiator and fans
run a big frontmount and just dont cut out the license plate area. Airflow is more important to a small i/c or road racing. For the 9 secs or so you are going down the track, the i/c functions much more like a big heatsink. Not the most efficient way to do it but it will work.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
So, it's not a heat issue? If that's the case, then would there be a problem with doing what Fire67 suggested using an A2A IC with a small core in front of the radiator and angled down so that air goes up through the IC and then through the radiator and A/C condensor (if you have one)?
I have no problem with changing up the IC setup. I'm just concerned about holes in the bumper. I'll rig something up if I have to.
I have no problem with changing up the IC setup. I'm just concerned about holes in the bumper. I'll rig something up if I have to.
I took the 3.5" intercoolers to over 600rwhp and the IAT temp increase were in the 70 degree range. I think the 4.5" will be better which should be enough to make 700rwhp or so. Give it a try and report back.
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From: Central FL/ East AL
Air to water intercoolers are much more efficient than air to air especially when using ice. The disadvantages are a tank, plumbing and a heat exchanger are needed. But when designed properly and using ice water as a cooling medium charge air temps can be below ambient. If you're looking for an easy way to reach your goals, methanol injection is the best way to go. No cutting, no fab. Realistically, you can't compare methanol injection to nitrous.
Either:
1.) cut up the front end for a big air to air
2.) leave the front end alone and add methanol injection
3.) use a water to air intercooler
If you don't want to do any of that because of the "hassle" of filling meth tanks or checking/adding ice and/or water or looking at your front fascia cut up then you don't want or need the power you're talking about making. You have to pay to play and make sacrifices for the power levels you're talking about.
Either:
1.) cut up the front end for a big air to air
2.) leave the front end alone and add methanol injection
3.) use a water to air intercooler
If you don't want to do any of that because of the "hassle" of filling meth tanks or checking/adding ice and/or water or looking at your front fascia cut up then you don't want or need the power you're talking about making. You have to pay to play and make sacrifices for the power levels you're talking about.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
Whatever power I get from the Procharger I want to have at all times. That rules out ice water in an A2W intercooler and methanol. I believe you guys when you say that I basically have no choice, so it sounds like I might be stuck with the FMIC setup. If so, I have just a couple more questions...
1) I'm pretty sure I've read that the fog lights can be kept with a FMIC. Can anyone confirm this?
2) Does anyone know where you could buy some grill-like material that you could cut to fit the hole where the license plate would go?
Thanks again, guys. I appreciate all the info.
1) I'm pretty sure I've read that the fog lights can be kept with a FMIC. Can anyone confirm this?
2) Does anyone know where you could buy some grill-like material that you could cut to fit the hole where the license plate would go?
Thanks again, guys. I appreciate all the info.
I'm not sure if there are any options other than cooling the air mechanically or chemically. Both the 2 you ruled out are the best & most widely used. Nor am I sure where you are getting your ideas about meth. I made 6 10 sec passes & used a pint, while my friend with NO2 made 8 10 sec passes & used 4 10lb bottles. (tho he picked up 200hp with his setup & I only got 50 from meth)
The Alky Control Kit uses your windshield washer tank (holds >1 gal) and has a low level LED indicator. It also has an LED that shows you if the pump is on & flowing. Not sure what the hp limit is, but I'm on the factory setting with 1 nozzle. And my grill is in 1 piece.
The Alky Control Kit uses your windshield washer tank (holds >1 gal) and has a low level LED indicator. It also has an LED that shows you if the pump is on & flowing. Not sure what the hp limit is, but I'm on the factory setting with 1 nozzle. And my grill is in 1 piece.