e-85 and big boost
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,649
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From: Mont Belvieu, TX
e-85 and big boost Any one on here doing it?
I work for an ethanol company and I have been tossing an idea areound in my head. Just want to know if it is possible. Thanks,
Keith
I work for an ethanol company and I have been tossing an idea areound in my head. Just want to know if it is possible. Thanks,
Keith
Originally Posted by Juiced
turbomustangs made over 1000hp on an e85 single turbo car.....
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 604
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From: Loganville, GA
Yeah it's doable... You won't get as much power out of the E85 as you would gasoline of the same octane though... Ethanol doesn't release as much energy, plain and simple...
Koenigsegg made like 900hp off European biofuel which I think is like 105 octane over there, but I can't remember.. It said it made 825hp off of 110 octane... But I don't think that's right at all...
Ethanol has less energy, so I don't see how you're able to get MORE power out of it... 1.4gal of Ethanol = 1gal petroleum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_CCX
Gas experts, dissect my post!!!
:edit: I see on wikipedia it says 110 octane (europe rating.. 95 octane US)...
Koenigsegg made like 900hp off European biofuel which I think is like 105 octane over there, but I can't remember.. It said it made 825hp off of 110 octane... But I don't think that's right at all...
Ethanol has less energy, so I don't see how you're able to get MORE power out of it... 1.4gal of Ethanol = 1gal petroleum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_CCX
Gas experts, dissect my post!!!
:edit: I see on wikipedia it says 110 octane (europe rating.. 95 octane US)...
Last edited by mahhddgtp; Jan 31, 2007 at 05:00 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,649
Likes: 1
From: Mont Belvieu, TX
I understand about the less energy in e85, just add more fuel. Really good reply's. The turbo mustang was real good. Would have been interesting with a less restrictive exhaust.
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Originally Posted by mahhddgtp
Yeah it's doable... You won't get as much power out of the E85 as you would gasoline of the same octane though... Ethanol doesn't release as much energy, plain and simple....
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Yeah ethanol has roughly a 105 octane rating and would be less than half the cost of race fuel of the same octane. I plan on trying it someday but don't need it quite yet as I'm only heads and cam but it could help a little at the track to get less knock
Actually, you can make more power with ethanol. It is true that there is less energy per weight of ethanol than gasoline, but you are running twice as much under power, so you are actually releasing much more energy. I think people confuse power and fuel economy with respect to running ethanol.
I ran a 402 LS engine (10.5-1 comp) on a engine dyno with 93 octane gasoline, it produced 550 hp at peak with a mild hyd cam. I then installed larger injectors and e85 from our local station (105 octane/1.99 gallon). Peak hp remained the same but it gained tq below hp peak, as much as 20ft lbs at points.
Then I added a gt42 turbo with ex manifolds off truck. At 12 pounds boost it made 850hp@6000rpm. Peak tq was over 800ft lbs with 14-15 pounds of boost in peak tq zone. This seemed very good for 10.5-1 compression on fuel that costed 1.99 a gallon. The brake specific was happy at .80-.82 with e85, the boosted engines we run on gas are happy at .65 brake. So it does take more e85, but seems reasonable for the power.
Kurt
Then I added a gt42 turbo with ex manifolds off truck. At 12 pounds boost it made 850hp@6000rpm. Peak tq was over 800ft lbs with 14-15 pounds of boost in peak tq zone. This seemed very good for 10.5-1 compression on fuel that costed 1.99 a gallon. The brake specific was happy at .80-.82 with e85, the boosted engines we run on gas are happy at .65 brake. So it does take more e85, but seems reasonable for the power.
Kurt
Plain and simple you burn about 25% more e85 than you do with pump gas, therefore you will have to fill up more often. It burns faster(more efficent) than pump gas. You will typically see 5% hp increase on NA engines and more (up to 25% or better)with FI. 105 octane is 105 octane whether it is with race fuel or ethanol. You will need to run a better fuel system, better pump and injectors as you will see the DC of the injectors jump 25% to 30%. Depending on the time of year and location depends on the actual octane rating of the ethanol. For the most part the mixture is 85% ethanol and 15% additives, mostly gasoline that helps it burn, start on cold days, etc. In the Winter in some locations where it freezes, they will change the mixture to more additives so like 80% ethanol and 20% additives to help with cold starts. All in all if you have the fuel system, and e85 pumps are readily available, you would be stupid not to run it, why would you NOT want to run a higher octane fuel at a cheaper price than pump gas?? There is a really good article on ethanol by Runn here. https://ls1tech.com/forums/fueling-injection/602091-how-run-your-ls1-e85.html
Also to dispel many myths that oil companies try to use to keep us Dependant on oil like its corrosive, blah blah. These guys and turbomustangs have been running this for a minute now and have facts, not speculation about all of the so called bad things about this stuff
Article can be found here
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/594721-corn-powered-corvettes.html
Originally Posted by rubbersidedown
1. Fuel economy will NOT suffer by 30% with PROPER tuning. There are MANY other variables that influence this, but the LSx platform seems to do extremely well as far as consumption rates go. WOT will require more fuel however.
2. E85 costs about 2-4.5 cents per gallon more to produce than regular gasoline. There are various subsidies including a $.51 per gallon "blenders credit" The industry will be subsidized for sometime to help ramp production and also to keep prices down initially to keep the consumer interested. The oil/ gas industry is one of the most subsidized industries in the country, with not too many people knowing this. They receive MANY tax breaks and still declare record profits...
3. Long term effects- E85 is nowhere near as corrosive as methanol- Your fuel tank is already plastic, your hoses already have nylon linings, and most all OEMs have been using Viton seals since 1996. I could go on and on, but you get the idea. As far as water retention, I do not condone putting water in your fuel tank, no matter what fuel you have! Jokes aside, condensation could cause problems, but we have not seen any effects of this. If you extract a fuel sample before and after a freeze/ thaw, there will be very little water if any (in a pressurized/ sealed enviroment such as your fuel tank)
these are the facts as I know them, others may have different stories. I am interested in facts if someone else has insight, but I am not interested in what your buddy heard from the local mechanic. Some of the first vehicles we converted were 6.0L chev pickups that had 190,xxx miles on them and now have into the 210,xxx and 215,xxx miles. No fuel pump failures. I can show you pics of a 1999 Tahoe NON-FLEX FUEL that had 100k on e85 (with no tuning or anything). Crosshatching is still present in the cylinder walls, fuel pump was ORIGINAL (how many 96-00 chev pickup guys can say that?) I will try and post those pics up, I do not have them in digi format, though.
andy
2. E85 costs about 2-4.5 cents per gallon more to produce than regular gasoline. There are various subsidies including a $.51 per gallon "blenders credit" The industry will be subsidized for sometime to help ramp production and also to keep prices down initially to keep the consumer interested. The oil/ gas industry is one of the most subsidized industries in the country, with not too many people knowing this. They receive MANY tax breaks and still declare record profits...
3. Long term effects- E85 is nowhere near as corrosive as methanol- Your fuel tank is already plastic, your hoses already have nylon linings, and most all OEMs have been using Viton seals since 1996. I could go on and on, but you get the idea. As far as water retention, I do not condone putting water in your fuel tank, no matter what fuel you have! Jokes aside, condensation could cause problems, but we have not seen any effects of this. If you extract a fuel sample before and after a freeze/ thaw, there will be very little water if any (in a pressurized/ sealed enviroment such as your fuel tank)
these are the facts as I know them, others may have different stories. I am interested in facts if someone else has insight, but I am not interested in what your buddy heard from the local mechanic. Some of the first vehicles we converted were 6.0L chev pickups that had 190,xxx miles on them and now have into the 210,xxx and 215,xxx miles. No fuel pump failures. I can show you pics of a 1999 Tahoe NON-FLEX FUEL that had 100k on e85 (with no tuning or anything). Crosshatching is still present in the cylinder walls, fuel pump was ORIGINAL (how many 96-00 chev pickup guys can say that?) I will try and post those pics up, I do not have them in digi format, though.
andy
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/594721-corn-powered-corvettes.html
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 604
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From: Loganville, GA
105 octane E85 can take compression the same as 105 octane gas... I agree with you guys there... But what about the amount of energy you can get out of it?
If you've got more injector left, can you just keep adding more and more fuel? Is there a limit to 'how much' fuel you can add (assuming you've got meaty injectors/fuel pump).
Basically I'm wondering if you can get crazy horsepower by just having an extremely beefy fuel system.. while still maybe running pump gas...
One more thing, someone answer my question about FI + E85 needing an advanced fuel management like BS3.
If you've got more injector left, can you just keep adding more and more fuel? Is there a limit to 'how much' fuel you can add (assuming you've got meaty injectors/fuel pump).
Basically I'm wondering if you can get crazy horsepower by just having an extremely beefy fuel system.. while still maybe running pump gas...
One more thing, someone answer my question about FI + E85 needing an advanced fuel management like BS3.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,649
Likes: 1
From: Mont Belvieu, TX
Originally Posted by mahhddgtp
105 octane E85 can take compression the same as 105 octane gas... I agree with you guys there... But what about the amount of energy you can get out of it?
If you've got more injector left, can you just keep adding more and more fuel? Is there a limit to 'how much' fuel you can add (assuming you've got meaty injectors/fuel pump).
Basically I'm wondering if you can get crazy horsepower by just having an extremely beefy fuel system.. while still maybe running pump gas...
One more thing, someone answer my question about FI + E85 needing an advanced fuel management like BS3.
If you've got more injector left, can you just keep adding more and more fuel? Is there a limit to 'how much' fuel you can add (assuming you've got meaty injectors/fuel pump).
Basically I'm wondering if you can get crazy horsepower by just having an extremely beefy fuel system.. while still maybe running pump gas...
One more thing, someone answer my question about FI + E85 needing an advanced fuel management like BS3.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,649
Likes: 1
From: Mont Belvieu, TX
Originally Posted by 427
I ran a 402 LS engine (10.5-1 comp) on a engine dyno with 93 octane gasoline, it produced 550 hp at peak with a mild hyd cam. I then installed larger injectors and e85 from our local station (105 octane/1.99 gallon). Peak hp remained the same but it gained tq below hp peak, as much as 20ft lbs at points.
Then I added a gt42 turbo with ex manifolds off truck. At 12 pounds boost it made 850hp@6000rpm. Peak tq was over 800ft lbs with 14-15 pounds of boost in peak tq zone. This seemed very good for 10.5-1 compression on fuel that costed 1.99 a gallon. The brake specific was happy at .80-.82 with e85, the boosted engines we run on gas are happy at .65 brake. So it does take more e85, but seems reasonable for the power.
Kurt
Then I added a gt42 turbo with ex manifolds off truck. At 12 pounds boost it made 850hp@6000rpm. Peak tq was over 800ft lbs with 14-15 pounds of boost in peak tq zone. This seemed very good for 10.5-1 compression on fuel that costed 1.99 a gallon. The brake specific was happy at .80-.82 with e85, the boosted engines we run on gas are happy at .65 brake. So it does take more e85, but seems reasonable for the power.
Kurt
Those are great results Kurt!!
Like I had stated, I work for an ethanol producer. I am trying to kill 2 birds with one stone.
1. Their need to advertise
2. My need to build a badass race car
The thing about it is, that frankly, no-one knows who the hell any of the ethanol producers are. They really need to get their name out. What better way than to sponsor a competitive race car
Think about it, if I could be competitive running a class with cars that run strictly race gas, that would say alot for the viablity of e85.
i am planing on running it this summer once i get my TTA inline, ther are 3 stations near me all about 40miutes away.
right now i have 96lb injectors but im wondering if they are going to be to small.
right now i have 96lb injectors but im wondering if they are going to be to small.