Just fired up my 3.3L Whipple on my C5 Z06
08-05-2007, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by big reg
I am willing to bet most smart people realize this would not be a budget kit. I would assume in the 6500-7k range to be safe. A price I am def willing to pay for a Twin Screw F-body. 
08-05-2007, 02:36 PM
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Ok and thanks for the pics and measurements.
Now here is a bit of homework for all of you.
Give me an idea of what power expectations are. We need to decide on which blower is best suited. Bear in mind that we can use any blower, beit autorotor, whipple, etc and choices will range from 2.2L to 3.3L. anything bigger than that and we might as well just cut the car and let it take a look at the road.
It will take a lot of work on my part, so you guys need to step up and speak your mind, so that I can try to come up with a prototype of what you want.
I'll look into blower prices as well, to see which one may be the best bang for the buck as well.
Thanks
bw: Roughly how much room is there under the cowl? from where you measured (furthest point forward on cowl) to firewall.
Thx
Now here is a bit of homework for all of you.
Give me an idea of what power expectations are. We need to decide on which blower is best suited. Bear in mind that we can use any blower, beit autorotor, whipple, etc and choices will range from 2.2L to 3.3L. anything bigger than that and we might as well just cut the car and let it take a look at the road.
It will take a lot of work on my part, so you guys need to step up and speak your mind, so that I can try to come up with a prototype of what you want.
I'll look into blower prices as well, to see which one may be the best bang for the buck as well.
Thanks
bw: Roughly how much room is there under the cowl? from where you measured (furthest point forward on cowl) to firewall.
Thx
08-05-2007, 02:55 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by rjw
bw: Roughly how much room is there under the cowl? from where you measured (furthest point forward on cowl) to firewall.
Thx
As far as power goes, I would want it to be capable of 800+whp
.BTW, where do you live?
Dan
08-05-2007, 03:14 PM
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holy **** this is bad ***, i know ed from late model speed has a mp112 for our cars and said he was considering to make a kit with a bigger blower (tvs) model, but damn fitting a 3.0 sucker in a fbody seems like something out of mission impossible,i would be happy with a 2.2l, somthing that should be able to produce 600rwhp and same torque numbers just by the blower itself is good enough for me. but if u fit a 3.3 l whipple than that would be even sweet. by the way eds kit goes for like 65000 for his whole kit so if something like 7000 just for a tuner kit meaning no fuel or tuning would be a great deal considering it would be a much effiecent twin screw type,
08-05-2007, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DanZ28
It's about 13-13 1/2".
As far as power goes, I would want it to be capable of 800+whp.
BTW, where do you live?
Dan
As far as power goes, I would want it to be capable of 800+whp
.BTW, where do you live?
Dan
Ok, hopefully some others will chime in, but in the mean time, from what you say, we are looking at a high end kit, not something for your typical daily driver...
I like that...while my car is my daily driver, 800 at the wheels will be a nice surprise to many, especialy when they ZERO in on my maggie hood, thinking that thery are going to spank me...
08-05-2007, 03:34 PM
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I think the majority of owners would want a 2.3 Lysholm or a 2.2-2.8 Autorotor (KB uses these). Of course there will be a few that will want the 3.3 bigboy but I think most would be happy with 650 rwhp and equal torque. Im sure you will get a lot of people claiming they want the big boy but when it comes time to "pony up" the cash I am willing to bet they are just window shopping.
Is the response and power curve the same with the 2 diff Lysholm blowers ie 2.3 vs 3.3? If so the 3.3 seems to be the better choice if you are looking at future power increases, ie forged motors, H/C etc... although as said before the 2.3l W140AX will do most just fine. My cousin recently sold his W140AX Whippled 03 Cobra and it was insane. After riding in it I have to have a Twin Screwed F-body.
Is the response and power curve the same with the 2 diff Lysholm blowers ie 2.3 vs 3.3? If so the 3.3 seems to be the better choice if you are looking at future power increases, ie forged motors, H/C etc... although as said before the 2.3l W140AX will do most just fine. My cousin recently sold his W140AX Whippled 03 Cobra and it was insane. After riding in it I have to have a Twin Screwed F-body.
Last edited by big reg; 08-05-2007 at 03:55 PM.
08-05-2007, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rjw
Before this spirals into the abyss, let me ask you what the purpose and attitude of your FIRST post was?
Let me quote you:
A shop in Broomfield, Colorado named Dragon Race Engineering already has a setup for a whipple on C5/C6 vettes that fits under the stock hood, has an air to water IC, and patents pending. Works really well, I have seen them in person. Good luck!
Look at what you posted and ask yourself if that didn't sound like maybe you have a slight attitude.
Please refer to the items in bold.
1) already could be taken as don't bother it's already been done.
2) C5/C6 This is mis-information, because they currently only have a C6 kit and they also are not currently responding to inquiry posts on the vette forum. leading many to believe that it will not happen
3) Fits under stock hood, again telling us that it's been done so don't bother
4) Air water IC...mis-information again
5) patents pending...are you trying to scare me..I have some pending as well...so what?
6) I've seen them in person...and you couldn't tell that it had an A/A Ic with 2 large tubes going over the rad?
7) Finally you say Good luck with an exclamation point...as in nice try?
Now did I get anything wrong or mis-interpret what you wrote and how I took it?
Before responding, maybe we could both just say that we mis-understood each others attitude and try to offer constructive rather than destructive criticism.
I will assume that you would agree, and I will explain my statements.
While some drag race, most use their cars as a daily driver or maybe a combo of drag/road race and dd.
In that you mentioned drag racing, which do you think would show colder IAT's? Remembering that you can ice down an A/W setup.
My opinion on FMIC's, A/A vs A/W is simply this:
A single fmic in front of a vette rad is asking for trouble, at least anywhere that I have been where temps are high , such as here in South Florida. maybe in Colorado things are different.
If you want to go A/A, then go with twin IC's and keep the front of the rad/condenser free. This keeps the car from running hotter. It also eliminates the need to upgrade the rad and/or fans. There are countless posts about vette owners overheating with single fmic's as daily drivers and road racers as well. Most looking for big power seem to be going to twins. Spend the rad/fan money on a good oil cooler and not one in the rad.(again jmo)
While I do feel that A/A setups in most cases are simpler, cheaper and a better solution for a street or road race application, I also feel that A/W setups are mis-understood by many people.
I won't get into a long discussion about how water transfers better than air, etc. because most of us know that the biggest problem with A/W setups is HEATSOAK.
Maggies, KB's etc. have one thing in common. You can open the reservoir when the IAT's are through the roof and the water is maybe tepid at best. This is a sign that the IC under the blower is simply NOT doing a good job of removing heat created by the blower.
With my IC, you cannot put a finger in the ressy for more than a second without getting scorched...I'll let you decide why.
With respect to throttle response
T-response is directly affected by throttled volume...all of the air between the tb and the intake valves. It is a well known fact that LESS t-volume = better more instant t-response.
so , if we are evaluating a system with an A/A IC and tb before the blower , then we have to include the run of pipe from the tb to the blower, the blower itself, the run to the IC, the IC itself, the run from the IC to the intake manifold and the volume of the manifold itself.
Compare all that to a setup where tb is bolted to back of blower, and Ic is sandwhiched between the blower and the manifold and...
Once again...you figure it out.
Also note that most turbos and centris don't put the tb before the blower and piping, but the Dragon and some others do. so when someone tells you that throttle response is like stock or better on a system with a long intake tract, you need to ask if they are 'Buying or selling'
It is also a known fact that anything you can do to remove restrictions in the inlet tract will cause the system to create MORE boost. This is why adding a larger tb for example creates more power in many cases.
Once again, compare the parasitic drag of a long intake tract compared to my setup and draw your own conclusions.
So, while you may assume that my attitude is not so good, let's look at my claims again and I quote:
I'll put this up against that setup any time with respect to power, throttle response, IAT's and overall engine temps (fmic on a vette is not a good idea)
Feel free to respond, but please let's do it in a civil manner....then we can all share info and learn from each other without the attitude.
Thanks
btw: I am posting all this on this forum, because while I can't speak for some others, my setup should fit f-bodies and gto's and I thought that this would be of interest to many here.
I also mentioned that there were others making LSx kits as well. While I haven't finished the testing on my prototype, I am trying to show that twin screw solutions are and will be available for a lot of people here on this forum.
Let me quote you:
A shop in Broomfield, Colorado named Dragon Race Engineering already has a setup for a whipple on C5/C6 vettes that fits under the stock hood, has an air to water IC, and patents pending. Works really well, I have seen them in person. Good luck!
Look at what you posted and ask yourself if that didn't sound like maybe you have a slight attitude.
Please refer to the items in bold.
1) already could be taken as don't bother it's already been done.
2) C5/C6 This is mis-information, because they currently only have a C6 kit and they also are not currently responding to inquiry posts on the vette forum. leading many to believe that it will not happen
3) Fits under stock hood, again telling us that it's been done so don't bother
4) Air water IC...mis-information again
5) patents pending...are you trying to scare me..I have some pending as well...so what?
6) I've seen them in person...and you couldn't tell that it had an A/A Ic with 2 large tubes going over the rad?
7) Finally you say Good luck with an exclamation point...as in nice try?
Now did I get anything wrong or mis-interpret what you wrote and how I took it?
Before responding, maybe we could both just say that we mis-understood each others attitude and try to offer constructive rather than destructive criticism.
I will assume that you would agree, and I will explain my statements.
While some drag race, most use their cars as a daily driver or maybe a combo of drag/road race and dd.
In that you mentioned drag racing, which do you think would show colder IAT's? Remembering that you can ice down an A/W setup.
My opinion on FMIC's, A/A vs A/W is simply this:
A single fmic in front of a vette rad is asking for trouble, at least anywhere that I have been where temps are high , such as here in South Florida. maybe in Colorado things are different.
If you want to go A/A, then go with twin IC's and keep the front of the rad/condenser free. This keeps the car from running hotter. It also eliminates the need to upgrade the rad and/or fans. There are countless posts about vette owners overheating with single fmic's as daily drivers and road racers as well. Most looking for big power seem to be going to twins. Spend the rad/fan money on a good oil cooler and not one in the rad.(again jmo)
While I do feel that A/A setups in most cases are simpler, cheaper and a better solution for a street or road race application, I also feel that A/W setups are mis-understood by many people.
I won't get into a long discussion about how water transfers better than air, etc. because most of us know that the biggest problem with A/W setups is HEATSOAK.
Maggies, KB's etc. have one thing in common. You can open the reservoir when the IAT's are through the roof and the water is maybe tepid at best. This is a sign that the IC under the blower is simply NOT doing a good job of removing heat created by the blower.
With my IC, you cannot put a finger in the ressy for more than a second without getting scorched...I'll let you decide why.
With respect to throttle response
T-response is directly affected by throttled volume...all of the air between the tb and the intake valves. It is a well known fact that LESS t-volume = better more instant t-response.
so , if we are evaluating a system with an A/A IC and tb before the blower , then we have to include the run of pipe from the tb to the blower, the blower itself, the run to the IC, the IC itself, the run from the IC to the intake manifold and the volume of the manifold itself.
Compare all that to a setup where tb is bolted to back of blower, and Ic is sandwhiched between the blower and the manifold and...
Once again...you figure it out.
Also note that most turbos and centris don't put the tb before the blower and piping, but the Dragon and some others do. so when someone tells you that throttle response is like stock or better on a system with a long intake tract, you need to ask if they are 'Buying or selling'
It is also a known fact that anything you can do to remove restrictions in the inlet tract will cause the system to create MORE boost. This is why adding a larger tb for example creates more power in many cases.
Once again, compare the parasitic drag of a long intake tract compared to my setup and draw your own conclusions.
So, while you may assume that my attitude is not so good, let's look at my claims again and I quote:
I'll put this up against that setup any time with respect to power, throttle response, IAT's and overall engine temps (fmic on a vette is not a good idea)
Feel free to respond, but please let's do it in a civil manner....then we can all share info and learn from each other without the attitude.
Thanks
btw: I am posting all this on this forum, because while I can't speak for some others, my setup should fit f-bodies and gto's and I thought that this would be of interest to many here.
I also mentioned that there were others making LSx kits as well. While I haven't finished the testing on my prototype, I am trying to show that twin screw solutions are and will be available for a lot of people here on this forum.
First, you are sensitive. The attitude came from you as though you were re-inventing the wheel. I simply stated that I have already seen something simlilar. Now to your points..
2) The kits are already done for the C5, just not advertised yet on the website as it hasn't been updated..I am told.
3)BLah, BLah
4)They have both air to water, AND air to air kits. Just becuase you saw 1 picture on their website doesn't mean that is everything they have. Read the description again closer....updates..etc. coming soon.
5) not trying to scare you, dont know you, dont care. I myself would not be scared by anything in writing from a website,etc. Regardless of my ideas. Period.
6)I know the difference between Air to water and air to air.
Parasitic loss, IAT's, IC's, whatever. my point is that I HAVE SEEN THE KIT I MENTIONED IN PERSON AND AT THE TRACK. The track doesnt lie, but hp #'s, people's claims using all appropriate terms, and smack talking does lie.
AS I said before, I like both kits, so bring your best and lets compare so we can benefit everybody else. No more talk, only results at the track. Until you are ready and have your best together, I am done. You have my info when you are ready to compare.
08-05-2007, 05:01 PM
#49
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Well in that you are local to them and/or so well informed, you should get them to at least reply to inquiries on the vette forum , so that people will know that they are still in business.
You could provide input onthe fmic question and we could get differing views from someone who unlike many has good success with a single IC in front of rad?
I am only hera to share info and ideas. I know what works for me and have seen too many others throw $$ away after stuff that they need because of FI related problems, due to manufacturers trying to keep costs or instalatin time down.
And I know that many others have gone through the same thing.
Maybe Dragon would come up with a side mount f body solution...run it by them and everyone will benefit ....mostly the f bod people here on this forum.
You could provide input onthe fmic question and we could get differing views from someone who unlike many has good success with a single IC in front of rad?
I am only hera to share info and ideas. I know what works for me and have seen too many others throw $$ away after stuff that they need because of FI related problems, due to manufacturers trying to keep costs or instalatin time down.
And I know that many others have gone through the same thing.
Maybe Dragon would come up with a side mount f body solution...run it by them and everyone will benefit ....mostly the f bod people here on this forum.
08-05-2007, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rjw
Maybe Dragon would come up with a side mount f body solution...run it by them and everyone will benefit ....mostly the f bod people here on this forum.
08-05-2007, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by memphisTa
Would the 2.3 kit be capable of makin 650 at the wheels?
08-05-2007, 05:46 PM
#52
Originally Posted by rjw
Ok and thanks for the pics and measurements.
Now here is a bit of homework for all of you.
Give me an idea of what power expectations are. We need to decide on which blower is best suited. Bear in mind that we can use any blower, beit autorotor, whipple, etc and choices will range from 2.2L to 3.3L. anything bigger than that and we might as well just cut the car and let it take a look at the road.
It will take a lot of work on my part, so you guys need to step up and speak your mind, so that I can try to come up with a prototype of what you want.
I'll look into blower prices as well, to see which one may be the best bang for the buck as well.
Thanks
bw: Roughly how much room is there under the cowl? from where you measured (furthest point forward on cowl) to firewall.
Thx
Now here is a bit of homework for all of you.
Give me an idea of what power expectations are. We need to decide on which blower is best suited. Bear in mind that we can use any blower, beit autorotor, whipple, etc and choices will range from 2.2L to 3.3L. anything bigger than that and we might as well just cut the car and let it take a look at the road.
It will take a lot of work on my part, so you guys need to step up and speak your mind, so that I can try to come up with a prototype of what you want.
I'll look into blower prices as well, to see which one may be the best bang for the buck as well.
Thanks
bw: Roughly how much room is there under the cowl? from where you measured (furthest point forward on cowl) to firewall.
Thx
Nice job by the way!
08-06-2007, 06:54 AM
#53
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Originally Posted by wildta
I think most of us would want the blower that doesen't need any cutting modifications, prob the 2.3!!!
Nice job by the way!
Nice job by the way!
I agree...no cowl hacking
08-06-2007, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by -Freak-
Something capable of 600+hp/tq, no cutting involved and have it packaged with all the necessary fuel mods to support it for around 7K.
08-06-2007, 08:36 AM
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Here's some food for thought
Yes the 3.3L is bigger and taller and will be a real challenge to get in there.
The 2.3 looks like it will fit just fine (with some engineering).
As for power...all of the twins are similar in design, but have a few differences. Rather than me go into it, a good place to start is to check out kb's big bore sc's and how they explain stuff, related to IAT's, boost range. etc. Now, bare in mind that different twin screws from opcon, autorotor, whipple, Lysholm, etc may all have differences from the kb units.
Here's a link to some of the technical mumbo jumbo regarding their H and S series and the differences
http://www.kennebell.net/supercharge...s/H_Series.htm
Yes the 3.3L is bigger and taller and will be a real challenge to get in there.
The 2.3 looks like it will fit just fine (with some engineering).
As for power...all of the twins are similar in design, but have a few differences. Rather than me go into it, a good place to start is to check out kb's big bore sc's and how they explain stuff, related to IAT's, boost range. etc. Now, bare in mind that different twin screws from opcon, autorotor, whipple, Lysholm, etc may all have differences from the kb units.
Here's a link to some of the technical mumbo jumbo regarding their H and S series and the differences
http://www.kennebell.net/supercharge...s/H_Series.htm
08-06-2007, 09:04 AM
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I would want either the 3.3L (Lysholm/Whipple) or 2.8L (Autorotor/Kenne Bell). From my measurements a 9.5" tall unit "should" fit with cowel modifying, but a 8.5"-9" tall unit would be MUCH easier and less cutting to fit. I have NO problem cutting up my car!
08-06-2007, 12:30 PM
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It has to be the 3.3L for me to get the power I want from it, or I'll have to go another route like centrifigal SC or turbo. I think the majority will be happy to get one to support 600-650whp without hacking so that may be the bigger market.
Dan
Dan
08-06-2007, 01:42 PM
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If you 3.3L guys don't mind hacking...then pay close attention to the testing that I will be doing, and if we can make some serious power, then it's probably a done deal.
The 2.2 thing is easier from an engineering standpoint, so....let's see what we can do about both!!!
Kind of makes sense....good power with no hacks while go for broke usually requires some mods anyway?
The 2.2 thing is easier from an engineering standpoint, so....let's see what we can do about both!!!
Kind of makes sense....good power with no hacks while go for broke usually requires some mods anyway?
