STS Observations and Questions Inside - Other Dyno Sheets Please
03-09-2008, 02:37 PM
#21
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"PSJ, I would think the engine with an optimized headers & exhaust and proper cold air intake would make 425-450 RWHP NA. I plan on dropping the turbo and using the existing stock manifolds, 2-2.5" exhaust, muffler and intake drawn from the rear as it is with the STS package to see what it can do as it is setup."
That's another good test for the valvetrain. If the power dips without the turbo...bingo..the valvesprings won't be as stressed since they are not working against boost, but still a good test.
That's another good test for the valvetrain. If the power dips without the turbo...bingo..the valvesprings won't be as stressed since they are not working against boost, but still a good test.
03-09-2008, 02:54 PM
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If it's too small in diameter, length doesn't matter. What's the exducer size of the turbine? What's the diameter of the pipe? I'd also worry about the muffler being more of a heat loss since it's a big chamber as compared to a pipe. Good thing is it's all easy stuff to test.
To be honest, I missed the part about the super slow spool up. What size exhaust housing is on the turbo??
Again, I ran a T76GTS for quite a while. I can tell you for sure that it doesn't like to make power at low boost. So if it were me, here's what I'd try (in order):
1.) Double-check turbo for end play (because that's simple to do in that location).
2.) Put a good set of valvesprings on it again. With a cam, I always use 7.35 pushrods.
3.) Re-dyno at the same boost and see if the 5900 dip in power is still there.
4.) If so, I would run larger discharge pipe (I realize that's not so simple).
4.) If not, turn the boost up gradually and the power should start to jump way up. That 76GTS likes 20-25lbs for good efficiency. Even though I know you won't get anywhere near that. But you will need to be running at least 15-18lbs, IMHO.
Again, I ran a T76GTS for quite a while. I can tell you for sure that it doesn't like to make power at low boost. So if it were me, here's what I'd try (in order):
1.) Double-check turbo for end play (because that's simple to do in that location).
2.) Put a good set of valvesprings on it again. With a cam, I always use 7.35 pushrods.
3.) Re-dyno at the same boost and see if the 5900 dip in power is still there.
4.) If so, I would run larger discharge pipe (I realize that's not so simple).
4.) If not, turn the boost up gradually and the power should start to jump way up. That 76GTS likes 20-25lbs for good efficiency. Even though I know you won't get anywhere near that. But you will need to be running at least 15-18lbs, IMHO.
By good set, you mean replace the 3500 mile Patriot Golds? I guess a set of 921's would prolly be a bit better...didn't think about reducing PR length due to the larger cam. Doing that is fairly cheap and would tell me if I have a bent one like I suspect (even though all LS-based cars tick).
I know Mike would really like to see some rear-mount dyno graphs as a comparison.
This was the LS1 graph:
This is the LQ9 graph:
03-09-2008, 03:33 PM
#23
Hi Nick,
The EBoost2 seems to be working okay for me as base boost was 9.2 or so at the manifold and with the EBoost I got to 11.5 with no problem..........so far.
Hey Rob,
It has been a long time for sure. maybe SEMA a few years back. Thanks for the info and I remeber the car.
Schantin,
The car is an M6 and the muffler is a custom stainless piece that did not hinder the power at all at 9.2-9.5 PSI. Just made it more tolerable droan and rasp wise. The exhaust is wrapped from manifolds to turbo. It has a T76 and it is 2Bar tuned. Not sure on the turbo exit but I would guess what STS originally sent with the kit. Again I did not build the combo, just trying to figure it out. If you could please sens me you tune file so I can compare.
smoke20,
I believe this answer most of your questions also and I feel that the cam is only a small part of the issue.
Right now it looks like taking a stock engine and just adding good pistons and rods along with a nice smaller forced induction cam makes more sense then an all out build with a rear mount. The more base engine does not get restricted as much with the exhaust setup and therefore can have the same base horsepower as a built holy crap engine. Maybe the exhaust setup will only flow enough NA to support 325 RWHP???
I would really like to see Zombies dyno, already pretty much know the combo, as well as Schantin and whoever else. Thanks everyone. If you go a search for member geeteego you will see his saga.
Mike Norris
The EBoost2 seems to be working okay for me as base boost was 9.2 or so at the manifold and with the EBoost I got to 11.5 with no problem..........so far.
Hey Rob,
It has been a long time for sure. maybe SEMA a few years back. Thanks for the info and I remeber the car.
Schantin,
The car is an M6 and the muffler is a custom stainless piece that did not hinder the power at all at 9.2-9.5 PSI. Just made it more tolerable droan and rasp wise. The exhaust is wrapped from manifolds to turbo. It has a T76 and it is 2Bar tuned. Not sure on the turbo exit but I would guess what STS originally sent with the kit. Again I did not build the combo, just trying to figure it out. If you could please sens me you tune file so I can compare.
smoke20,
I believe this answer most of your questions also and I feel that the cam is only a small part of the issue.
Right now it looks like taking a stock engine and just adding good pistons and rods along with a nice smaller forced induction cam makes more sense then an all out build with a rear mount. The more base engine does not get restricted as much with the exhaust setup and therefore can have the same base horsepower as a built holy crap engine. Maybe the exhaust setup will only flow enough NA to support 325 RWHP???
I would really like to see Zombies dyno, already pretty much know the combo, as well as Schantin and whoever else. Thanks everyone. If you go a search for member geeteego you will see his saga.
Mike Norris
03-09-2008, 03:37 PM
#24
It's a M6 car with a SPEC 2+ clutch that was holding just fine. Stock gearing.
To fill in the gaps, Mike, correct me if I'm out of school:
Car is falling off about 50 rwhp at 5900rpm. Almost like it's losing a cylinder. Mike checked the plugs and regapped with the same result. No pinging, knock, or detonation, just falling flat and losing hp where it should still be climbing or at worst, leveling off a bit.
.
I burned up a spec 3 on a cam only car . a 2+ isnt going to hold another 350
03-09-2008, 03:43 PM
#25
Thanks again everyone.
The power drop is not not related to boost, timing or fuel. It is a quick 50 HP drop, not a smooth drop. You can feel & hear it on the dyno and it "feels" like valve float to me, but it is after peak boost and and peak torque and maybe shorting the peak HP about 25 or so. It is a problem for sure and most likely boost related as I raise it up. I do agree it is on the leaner side then I like, but had no KR and not a big difference at 11.0 to 1 A/F. I was simply trying to see what the car liked and disliked. Once i was done I add 4% fuel for Ronnie to drive her around on.
Though the fuel syatem may only be good for 650-ish RWHP and the pressure dips, I can still control the A/F without radical changes. I think I can get to 650 like ronnie wants with the current fuel system with the only change being a boost referenced regulator and proper return to get rid of the factory in tank regulator.
Once I have a naturally aspirated run I will have a better grasp on where to go next. If it does end up in the 310-320 RWHP area as I am thinking, then next would be to get rid of the STS inlet tubing and just have a filter up in the engine bay and see what that does. After that a set of headers to simulate a more proper N/A setup. If this produces 425-450 RWHP then I would feel the engine is fine and just restricted by the STS package. If no headers are available to test, then at least a couple 2.5" pipes off the stock manifolds. We will see. If need be a compression test, checking timing chain alignment & degreeing, as well as checking the springs for proper install heights and pressures after all is said and done.
Again thanks for all the info and if at all possible please post up some dyno sheets as well as longrange4u setup it would help me very much. I look forward to learning more on this and helping out geeteego's project.
Mike Norris
The power drop is not not related to boost, timing or fuel. It is a quick 50 HP drop, not a smooth drop. You can feel & hear it on the dyno and it "feels" like valve float to me, but it is after peak boost and and peak torque and maybe shorting the peak HP about 25 or so. It is a problem for sure and most likely boost related as I raise it up. I do agree it is on the leaner side then I like, but had no KR and not a big difference at 11.0 to 1 A/F. I was simply trying to see what the car liked and disliked. Once i was done I add 4% fuel for Ronnie to drive her around on.
Though the fuel syatem may only be good for 650-ish RWHP and the pressure dips, I can still control the A/F without radical changes. I think I can get to 650 like ronnie wants with the current fuel system with the only change being a boost referenced regulator and proper return to get rid of the factory in tank regulator.
Once I have a naturally aspirated run I will have a better grasp on where to go next. If it does end up in the 310-320 RWHP area as I am thinking, then next would be to get rid of the STS inlet tubing and just have a filter up in the engine bay and see what that does. After that a set of headers to simulate a more proper N/A setup. If this produces 425-450 RWHP then I would feel the engine is fine and just restricted by the STS package. If no headers are available to test, then at least a couple 2.5" pipes off the stock manifolds. We will see. If need be a compression test, checking timing chain alignment & degreeing, as well as checking the springs for proper install heights and pressures after all is said and done.
Again thanks for all the info and if at all possible please post up some dyno sheets as well as longrange4u setup it would help me very much. I look forward to learning more on this and helping out geeteego's project.
Mike Norris
03-09-2008, 03:45 PM
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This raises a red flag to me if its dropping of at 5900 I bet that the clutch is slipping and its just not that noticable yet . Reason I say that is because anyone I have seen tryiing for those #'s 750 rwhp use a spec 3+ a 2+ isnt going to hold and if it dose not for long .
I burned up a spec 3 on a cam only car . a 2+ isnt going to hold another 350
I burned up a spec 3 on a cam only car . a 2+ isnt going to hold another 350
03-09-2008, 03:52 PM
#27
Just cause the clutch worked on your friends car dosent mean it works on yours . I am not a betting man but I would put money on the fact that your clutch is slipping .
Thats a big drop very quick never seen valve springs drop of like that .
03-09-2008, 04:35 PM
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yeah probably alot
I had just a double layered screen from homedepot on my ST80 and I thought that would be really free flowing.....well guess what on the dyno watching it the turbo literally sucked the screen in causing a hole in the middle of the screen.
You should pull the filter off and make a dyno run I'd bet it jumps up considerably
I had just a double layered screen from homedepot on my ST80 and I thought that would be really free flowing.....well guess what on the dyno watching it the turbo literally sucked the screen in causing a hole in the middle of the screen.
You should pull the filter off and make a dyno run I'd bet it jumps up considerably
03-09-2008, 05:38 PM
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i would change the exhaust pipe to a 4" pipe, change the cam to a more power friendly cam like TRT or the one Mark suggested, and change the A/R go smaller for quicker spool. it could be you have several small items all working against you. i originally had a . 96 A/R dropped to a .81 and spool time now is full boost by 3200 rpm. i agree with CamarooSS19 the clutch could be the issue also. alot of little things i see you could change and make the set up more effiecient.
03-09-2008, 06:03 PM
#33
Guys, all this info and help is very much appreciated to say the least. I will try address as many questions as possible here.
"To be honest, I missed the part about the super slow spool up. What size exhaust housing is on the turbo??
Again, I ran a T76GTS for quite a while. I can tell you for sure that it doesn't like to make power at low boost. So if it were me, here's what I'd try (in order):
1.) Double-check turbo for end play (because that's simple to do in that location).
2.) Put a good set of valvesprings on it again. With a cam, I always use 7.35 pushrods.
3.) Re-dyno at the same boost and see if the 5900 dip in power is still there.
4.) If so, I would run larger discharge pipe (I realize that's not so simple).
4.) If not, turn the boost up gradually and the power should start to jump way up. That 76GTS likes 20-25lbs for good efficiency. Even though I know you won't get anywhere near that. But you will need to be running at least 15-18lbs, IMHO."
These are all good things to chack and I think Ronnie let you know what turbine housing is on there. You guys can debate that as I have no idea what would be right. If what you say about needing to be in the 15-18 PSI area at a minimum, I take that as it is a bit too large of a turbo. Is there a better turbine housing for quicker spool that would limit boost to lets say 20 PSI??
"This raises a red flag to me if its dropping of at 5900 I bet that the clutch is slipping and its just not that noticable yet."
The clutch is not slipping for sure. At least not yet. The RPMs do not jump up but there is a noticeable miss like a dropped cylinder or two that I can feel and hear. To me that is a valve spring issue and I would say it is more a possibility of a setup problem verusu a actual spring problem.
As mentioned there was 16* timing an no KR anywhere.
"The dip isn't present at the lower psi so the engine only test isn't going to help there. Are you logging the boost?"
I agree the NA test will most likely not find the power dip or misfire at 5900 RPM, but more a matter for me to see what we are starting with. Not logging boost now, but usually have a shotgun person with me watching the boost gauge.
"Nasty air filter could kill power also."
I agree it could slow spool as well as limit power output, but 11.5 PSI at the manifold is 11.5 PSI at the manifold no matter how you slice it. This will be addressed during testing as well as verifying turbo exhaust exit.
"You should pull the filter off and make a dyno run I'd bet it jumps up considerably"
I do not think power will go up as the boost controller will keep the boost at 11.5 PSI. The spool should be quicker. NA the air filter could change things drastically.
"I cant see the 921s being better than the Patriots."
I agree as I have run up to 14 PSI with Patriots. As I mentioned previously I would think it is more a setup issue or potentially bad spring.
In looking at the LS1 dyno graph, it looks like boost is still climbing at 5700-5800 when the run was shut down. I would guess boost was in the 15 PSI area at the manifold and going to go higher till she blew. Almost looks like there was no reference to the wastegate. Both graphs are nearly identical as far as HP and TQ versus RPM, but where the LQ9 hit the selected boost level it flattens out, the LS1 still keeps climbing. Poor stock shortblock never had a chance.
Thanks again all.
Mike Norris
"To be honest, I missed the part about the super slow spool up. What size exhaust housing is on the turbo??
Again, I ran a T76GTS for quite a while. I can tell you for sure that it doesn't like to make power at low boost. So if it were me, here's what I'd try (in order):
1.) Double-check turbo for end play (because that's simple to do in that location).
2.) Put a good set of valvesprings on it again. With a cam, I always use 7.35 pushrods.
3.) Re-dyno at the same boost and see if the 5900 dip in power is still there.
4.) If so, I would run larger discharge pipe (I realize that's not so simple).
4.) If not, turn the boost up gradually and the power should start to jump way up. That 76GTS likes 20-25lbs for good efficiency. Even though I know you won't get anywhere near that. But you will need to be running at least 15-18lbs, IMHO."
These are all good things to chack and I think Ronnie let you know what turbine housing is on there. You guys can debate that as I have no idea what would be right. If what you say about needing to be in the 15-18 PSI area at a minimum, I take that as it is a bit too large of a turbo. Is there a better turbine housing for quicker spool that would limit boost to lets say 20 PSI??
"This raises a red flag to me if its dropping of at 5900 I bet that the clutch is slipping and its just not that noticable yet."
The clutch is not slipping for sure. At least not yet. The RPMs do not jump up but there is a noticeable miss like a dropped cylinder or two that I can feel and hear. To me that is a valve spring issue and I would say it is more a possibility of a setup problem verusu a actual spring problem.
As mentioned there was 16* timing an no KR anywhere.
"The dip isn't present at the lower psi so the engine only test isn't going to help there. Are you logging the boost?"
I agree the NA test will most likely not find the power dip or misfire at 5900 RPM, but more a matter for me to see what we are starting with. Not logging boost now, but usually have a shotgun person with me watching the boost gauge.
"Nasty air filter could kill power also."
I agree it could slow spool as well as limit power output, but 11.5 PSI at the manifold is 11.5 PSI at the manifold no matter how you slice it. This will be addressed during testing as well as verifying turbo exhaust exit.
"You should pull the filter off and make a dyno run I'd bet it jumps up considerably"
I do not think power will go up as the boost controller will keep the boost at 11.5 PSI. The spool should be quicker. NA the air filter could change things drastically.
"I cant see the 921s being better than the Patriots."
I agree as I have run up to 14 PSI with Patriots. As I mentioned previously I would think it is more a setup issue or potentially bad spring.
In looking at the LS1 dyno graph, it looks like boost is still climbing at 5700-5800 when the run was shut down. I would guess boost was in the 15 PSI area at the manifold and going to go higher till she blew. Almost looks like there was no reference to the wastegate. Both graphs are nearly identical as far as HP and TQ versus RPM, but where the LQ9 hit the selected boost level it flattens out, the LS1 still keeps climbing. Poor stock shortblock never had a chance.
Thanks again all.
Mike Norris
03-09-2008, 06:45 PM
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Mike, in looking at the dyno graphs, I'm more concerned about the hp curve in the 5100 rpm area. Because that's where it actually starts to lose power, more specifically, stops making a linear climb in power. This would lead me to believe this is where the restriction begins to surface. Meaning, I believe that the discharge pipe is in fact too small, and then may even be starting to develop compressor surge around 5900 (causing the big drop in power). If I'm correct about the piping size, the larger .96 a/r housing is amplifying the effect.
Geeteego - You're right about that housing spooling faster than a 1.x housing. But on a rear mount turbo, you really need a smaller a/r to help with spool time. As smoke20 said, the .81 a/r housing would help tremendously with that. Which is also a pretty cheap and quick fix. But it's still not the problem, so I'd save that for last.
Geeteego - You're right about that housing spooling faster than a 1.x housing. But on a rear mount turbo, you really need a smaller a/r to help with spool time. As smoke20 said, the .81 a/r housing would help tremendously with that. Which is also a pretty cheap and quick fix. But it's still not the problem, so I'd save that for last.
03-09-2008, 06:55 PM
#35
Hey Rob,
5100 RPM is actually where peak boost hits at about 11.8 PSI and drops back to 11.4-11.5 and holds. So I would think I would expect to the power climb to stop when boost peaks and rops a tad. Am I thinking right that power climb leveling off with boost setting reached is what should happen?
Boost does not start to come on till 3000-3500 and takes till 5100 to get to the setting. Could be the dirty air filter. Could be the turbine housing. Could be heat dissipation.
Thanks.
Mike Norris
5100 RPM is actually where peak boost hits at about 11.8 PSI and drops back to 11.4-11.5 and holds. So I would think I would expect to the power climb to stop when boost peaks and rops a tad. Am I thinking right that power climb leveling off with boost setting reached is what should happen?
Boost does not start to come on till 3000-3500 and takes till 5100 to get to the setting. Could be the dirty air filter. Could be the turbine housing. Could be heat dissipation.
Thanks.
Mike Norris
03-09-2008, 07:16 PM
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Hey Rob,
5100 RPM is actually where peak boost hits at about 11.8 PSI and drops back to 11.4-11.5 and holds. So I would think I would expect to the power climb to stop when boost peaks and rops a tad. Am I thinking right that power climb leveling off with boost setting reached is what should happen?
5100 RPM is actually where peak boost hits at about 11.8 PSI and drops back to 11.4-11.5 and holds. So I would think I would expect to the power climb to stop when boost peaks and rops a tad. Am I thinking right that power climb leveling off with boost setting reached is what should happen?
Also, make sure that there's no chance of a leak anywhere on the intake side. i.e., hole in silicone, loose clamp, broken weld in piping, etc. Because the eboost would somewhat mask that problem.
We're getting there I think. Just keep us posted.
03-09-2008, 07:22 PM
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sorry to keep coming up with ideas but im really watching this thread and i like the direction its going, wanting to see it through. check the exhaust for a leak, if your dropping boost it could be on either side, exhaust or intake. it might be a leak that is not noticeable below 11.5 psi ? i agree with Rob about going to a bigger intake hose, my GT67 runs 2.5 pipe, so i would think your 76 should get a bigger pipe for more air flow, i know the STS stock pipe for the 70 is much bigger than the 67 piping.
03-09-2008, 07:45 PM
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Guys, I can't say enough how much all this is appreciated.
The responses are more than (we) could ask for.
I know the car has 700++ in it. Mike knows it. The car's two sisters (same builder, blocks, heads, intakes, but different cams...and the other 2 are APS cars, one M6 and one A4) are running 700 to the rear tires and trapping 135+. They've unfortunately had oiling issues and are apart...I'm lucky enough to only have to battle the turbo.
I believe Mike went through the system hot and cold and checked for leaks. Plus, it wouldn't hold boost as well as it does with a leak, right? It used to dump 4psi after max boost when it was-a-leakin.
PS: Mike, need to up the restrictor size...while it doesn't alarm any more at boost, it still poofs big-time off the throttle.
The responses are more than (we) could ask for.
I know the car has 700++ in it. Mike knows it. The car's two sisters (same builder, blocks, heads, intakes, but different cams...and the other 2 are APS cars, one M6 and one A4) are running 700 to the rear tires and trapping 135+. They've unfortunately had oiling issues and are apart...I'm lucky enough to only have to battle the turbo.
I believe Mike went through the system hot and cold and checked for leaks. Plus, it wouldn't hold boost as well as it does with a leak, right? It used to dump 4psi after max boost when it was-a-leakin.
PS: Mike, need to up the restrictor size...while it doesn't alarm any more at boost, it still poofs big-time off the throttle.
03-09-2008, 08:22 PM
#39
"The air filter could hurt power, but unless the filter is literally collapsing at 5900, it wouldn't drop like that. And the exh housing would only hurt spool up, unless the discharge pipes are too small. And heat dissipation is really only an issue until you start making boost. So at this point, I'm gonna say pushrods, valvesprings, and then discharge piping.
Also, make sure that there's no chance of a leak anywhere on the intake side. i.e., hole in silicone, loose clamp, broken weld in piping, etc. Because the eboost would somewhat mask that problem."
Without the Eboost2 the boost would go to 9.5-ish PSI at the manifold which is what I would expect to see with a 12 PSI spring out back. pretty sure there are no pressure side leaks.
"sorry to keep coming up with ideas but im really watching this thread and i like the direction its going, wanting to see it through. check the exhaust for a leak, if your dropping boost it could be on either side, exhaust or intake. it might be a leak that is not noticeable below 11.5 psi ? i agree with Rob about going to a bigger intake hose, my GT67 runs 2.5 pipe, so i would think your 76 should get a bigger pipe for more air flow, i know the STS stock pipe for the 70 is much bigger than the 67 piping."
There is no exhaust leak and the only boost drop is when hitting the set boost point and dropping back slightly, but holds that till I let off. When taking about intake hose, do you mean the piping from the compressor housing to the intercooler? I do not know for sure about the following dimensions, but I want to say it is 2" off the compressor housing and steps up to 3" just before the intercooler. Then it steps up after the intercooler to 3.5" about 18" from the TB and then to 4" at the TB.
"PS: Mike, need to up the restrictor size...while it doesn't alarm any more at boost, it still poofs big-time off the throttle."
It is at .080" now and I think I have a .063" or .065" here I can put in. Let me know what you think you want in there as I do not want to restrict the turbo too much.
Thanks again all. talk to you tomorrow Ronnie.
Mike Norris
Also, make sure that there's no chance of a leak anywhere on the intake side. i.e., hole in silicone, loose clamp, broken weld in piping, etc. Because the eboost would somewhat mask that problem."
Without the Eboost2 the boost would go to 9.5-ish PSI at the manifold which is what I would expect to see with a 12 PSI spring out back. pretty sure there are no pressure side leaks.
"sorry to keep coming up with ideas but im really watching this thread and i like the direction its going, wanting to see it through. check the exhaust for a leak, if your dropping boost it could be on either side, exhaust or intake. it might be a leak that is not noticeable below 11.5 psi ? i agree with Rob about going to a bigger intake hose, my GT67 runs 2.5 pipe, so i would think your 76 should get a bigger pipe for more air flow, i know the STS stock pipe for the 70 is much bigger than the 67 piping."
There is no exhaust leak and the only boost drop is when hitting the set boost point and dropping back slightly, but holds that till I let off. When taking about intake hose, do you mean the piping from the compressor housing to the intercooler? I do not know for sure about the following dimensions, but I want to say it is 2" off the compressor housing and steps up to 3" just before the intercooler. Then it steps up after the intercooler to 3.5" about 18" from the TB and then to 4" at the TB.
"PS: Mike, need to up the restrictor size...while it doesn't alarm any more at boost, it still poofs big-time off the throttle."
It is at .080" now and I think I have a .063" or .065" here I can put in. Let me know what you think you want in there as I do not want to restrict the turbo too much.
Thanks again all. talk to you tomorrow Ronnie.
Mike Norris
03-09-2008, 09:16 PM
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Yes Mike, the piping running from the turbo to the intercooler. Now as I'm looking at the picture, just trying to guesstimate, it looks to be either 2" or 2 1/4", because the T76 has a 3" outlet. This would definitely be too small for that turbo and that power level. If it's only 2", I would practically bet (if I had any money) that its' compressor surge we're seeing at 5900.
Also, put in the .063 restrictor. That's plenty of oil, and should stop the smoking. The
.080 is way too big. FWIW, I always use a .058.
Also, put in the .063 restrictor. That's plenty of oil, and should stop the smoking. The
.080 is way too big. FWIW, I always use a .058.