Ok the MAF topic again - limits.
07-29-2003, 11:38 AM
#1
Ok the MAF topic again - limits. has there been anything new for getting past the limitations of the 62hz on the Maf, i can have the MAF recalibrated to the 62, but that only equates to about 620rwhp right.
any other way then a fast system.
I know harlan has a different MAF, not sure what brand or how he got it to work with the computer what do we have available for our cars?
if i cant get enough power out of it, i may turn down the boost alittle and spray a wet shot.
any other way then a fast system.
I know harlan has a different MAF, not sure what brand or how he got it to work with the computer what do we have available for our cars?
if i cant get enough power out of it, i may turn down the boost alittle and spray a wet shot.
07-29-2003, 03:05 PM
#2
Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. well right now my maf stops helping at about 430rwhp so that would be a good bit of help for me but unfortunately i have a 98 computer. 99 computers (once you fix the maf graph) can go to 530 or so rw and still have the maf calculate the airflow... so just going to 620 isnt as helpful.. but a step in the right direction. also i think you mean 62#/minute of air at 12khz
me personally im waiting on chris b to release a maf graph/flow proportioning for a specific pro m meter and an install document.. c'mon man!
me personally im waiting on chris b to release a maf graph/flow proportioning for a specific pro m meter and an install document.. c'mon man!
07-29-2003, 03:10 PM
#3
07-29-2003, 10:37 PM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. Heck, now that I think about it $900 is a steal(relative to what's available) for the ability to double/or more?? the horsepower capacity of the stock computer. If you don't have EDIT it would be a little more pricey of course but, for those of us with EDIT it's not really a bad deal.
Now a MAF setup for $500 would be great.
Now a MAF setup for $500 would be great.
07-29-2003, 10:45 PM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. I did the same thing Harlan did - it seems to work well for him. It is around 350 for the meter (univer + 85mm is what I got), 350 for the converter, and an extra 75 bucks from pro-m to get a 37point transfer function of the whole unit (flow to Hz).
You have to request the range for calibration of the meter - they want it in Kg/hr. I went for 2880 Kg/hr max which equates to 800 g/sec.
I will be more than happy to post my info when I get it - that won't be for another month+ though (out of the country). I don't know how helpfull it will be though as I think each one will be slightly different (plus mine will be calibrated for a shorter LT1 freq. range). If you get the calibration from pro-m that is all you need though.
You will then need to do the 1/2 MAF flow, 1/2 the displacement, and 1/2 injector size trick. FWIW When I do that I make a calculated PID in EFILive that multiplys the MAF flow rate by 2 and then log/display that.
Really if someone has some electronics skill you just need an arbitrary voltage -> freq converter (one that is skewed for the right range) - then get it flowed/measured and you are good to go. YOu can pick up the pro-m maf's pretty cheap on mustang boards (the univer's are the blow-throughs, the rest are pull through).
You have to request the range for calibration of the meter - they want it in Kg/hr. I went for 2880 Kg/hr max which equates to 800 g/sec.
I will be more than happy to post my info when I get it - that won't be for another month+ though (out of the country). I don't know how helpfull it will be though as I think each one will be slightly different (plus mine will be calibrated for a shorter LT1 freq. range). If you get the calibration from pro-m that is all you need though.
You will then need to do the 1/2 MAF flow, 1/2 the displacement, and 1/2 injector size trick. FWIW When I do that I make a calculated PID in EFILive that multiplys the MAF flow rate by 2 and then log/display that.
Really if someone has some electronics skill you just need an arbitrary voltage -> freq converter (one that is skewed for the right range) - then get it flowed/measured and you are good to go. YOu can pick up the pro-m maf's pretty cheap on mustang boards (the univer's are the blow-throughs, the rest are pull through).
07-30-2003, 10:40 AM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. I think $900 is too much.
Mustang guys pay a lot less than that for a meter and a full set of injectors, surely you are not advocating that we LS1 folks pay 40% more only half as much product?
My understanding is that you need to directly contact Pro-M and get it going since they are now doing GM stuff, they had a suit going with JR Granatelli that has been settled.
Mustang guys pay a lot less than that for a meter and a full set of injectors, surely you are not advocating that we LS1 folks pay 40% more only half as much product?
My understanding is that you need to directly contact Pro-M and get it going since they are now doing GM stuff, they had a suit going with JR Granatelli that has been settled.
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07-30-2003, 12:03 PM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. Where'd you get $900 JR? ChrisB's total is only $775.
Sure that's alot of money to pay for an extended MAF setup but, when you look at a system like FAST the MAF setup is cheap in comparison even with the extras you WILL need.
Pro-M MAF setup HP support ~1200?
Hardware - $775
LS1edit - $550
Wideband w/sensor - $450
low Z box- $???
Total $1775 + ???
Now if you've already bought LS1edit for other mods then split it's price between mods.
I don't really know a price breakdown for the FAST setup but, assume it's somewhere around $3000 with everything needed. It is capable of supporting whatever horsepower you can make but, how many people have exceeded or plan to exceed what the MAF setup is capable of supporting?
So I guess I'm saying that if a person already has certain items(even if they don't really) then the MAF setup is a nice alternative to going with a complete stand alone computer.
Don't forget about the converter box us GM folks have to get to convert that Ford signal into GM language. That's part of the extra cost.
Don't get me wrong either I would love to see a complete MAF package for less than the total I did above. Maybe we could work out a group price with Pro-M if enough people were interested.
JK
Sure that's alot of money to pay for an extended MAF setup but, when you look at a system like FAST the MAF setup is cheap in comparison even with the extras you WILL need.
Pro-M MAF setup HP support ~1200?
Hardware - $775
LS1edit - $550
Wideband w/sensor - $450
low Z box- $???
Total $1775 + ???
Now if you've already bought LS1edit for other mods then split it's price between mods.
I don't really know a price breakdown for the FAST setup but, assume it's somewhere around $3000 with everything needed. It is capable of supporting whatever horsepower you can make but, how many people have exceeded or plan to exceed what the MAF setup is capable of supporting?
So I guess I'm saying that if a person already has certain items(even if they don't really) then the MAF setup is a nice alternative to going with a complete stand alone computer.
Don't forget about the converter box us GM folks have to get to convert that Ford signal into GM language. That's part of the extra cost.
Don't get me wrong either I would love to see a complete MAF package for less than the total I did above. Maybe we could work out a group price with Pro-M if enough people were interested.
JK
07-30-2003, 10:46 PM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. Camaroholic was kind enough to send me
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM231.pdf
which is a datasheet for an IC that could easily replace the 350 for the converter box - which would bring the total price down under 500. You oculd either get a flow vs. voltage calibration and simply calculate the frequency output and map that, see if pro-m will give you a calibraiton with your unit, or find someone else that can (don't think a flowbench will flow enough eair to do that).
I already have a converter, but I will probably try this out anyway and compare the two.
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM231.pdf
which is a datasheet for an IC that could easily replace the 350 for the converter box - which would bring the total price down under 500. You oculd either get a flow vs. voltage calibration and simply calculate the frequency output and map that, see if pro-m will give you a calibraiton with your unit, or find someone else that can (don't think a flowbench will flow enough eair to do that).
I already have a converter, but I will probably try this out anyway and compare the two.
07-30-2003, 10:58 PM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. I would be very interested if there is a GP and the price starts to come down. It would also be nice to get wideband sensors on there so the PCM can make accurate calculations on what the real A/F ratio is.
Can someone explain the high Z box? I thought high Z was for injectors?
Mike
Can someone explain the high Z box? I thought high Z was for injectors?
Mike
07-31-2003, 12:51 AM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits.
Sure that's alot of money to pay for an extended MAF setup but, when you look at a system like FAST the MAF setup is cheap in comparison even with the extras you WILL need.
Pro-M MAF setup HP support ~1200?
Hardware - $775
LS1edit - $550
Wideband w/sensor - $450
High Z box- $???
Total $1775 + ???
Pro-M MAF setup HP support ~1200?
Hardware - $775
LS1edit - $550
Wideband w/sensor - $450
High Z box- $???
Total $1775 + ???
LS1edit - $550
Wideband w/sensor - $450
High Z box- $380 (Speed Inc)
Autotap- $290
Total $2445
Control of F.A.S over stock ECM= Priceless
Same as the price on a FAST system without the trigger mech. The control the FAST system has over the stock ECM supercedes by a LARGE margin. Its not even worth spending the money to put patches on a stock system.
07-31-2003, 05:17 AM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. I have used fast units, accel gen 6, haltech, motec, and autotronics (haven't seen the new gen7 dfi yet) - one thing I *will* say is that drivability is 1000000000x easier to get nailed down (part throttle fueling) with a MAF based input than with an afermarket box.
This isn't to say you can't tune those boxes to work well at part throttle, but chances are if you have never used them before you *will* be paying someone if you want a good tune off the bat (as opposed to a month later, and *many* days invested).
Even with a wideband there is more to it than just correcting to that - there are transient fueling issues, etc. that can't be accurately quantified by the wideband due to short duration and response lag time (gas transport).
Even when you have one of the above dialed in well odds are there may still be a few dead spots here and there - to get an aftermarket DFI to the same point as a stock pcm part throttle wide is *very* difficult and time consuming.
If the car is any kind of daily driver I would try and keep the stock pcm if at all possible (on the lt1/ls1 series anyway) - it will for sure be much easier to dial in and get working, and WOT tuning is relatively simple.
This isn't to say you can't tune those boxes to work well at part throttle, but chances are if you have never used them before you *will* be paying someone if you want a good tune off the bat (as opposed to a month later, and *many* days invested).
Even with a wideband there is more to it than just correcting to that - there are transient fueling issues, etc. that can't be accurately quantified by the wideband due to short duration and response lag time (gas transport).
Even when you have one of the above dialed in well odds are there may still be a few dead spots here and there - to get an aftermarket DFI to the same point as a stock pcm part throttle wide is *very* difficult and time consuming.
If the car is any kind of daily driver I would try and keep the stock pcm if at all possible (on the lt1/ls1 series anyway) - it will for sure be much easier to dial in and get working, and WOT tuning is relatively simple.
07-31-2003, 11:35 AM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. sscam68 - I did forget to add in a scanning program, thanks. Wouldn't you still need one for the FAST setup though?? For someone like me who has most of the stuff in that list already it really is a no brainer though to go with the Pro-M MAF setup. The only thing I would need is the MAF hardware and maybe a low-z box if the Big high-z injectors weren't enough or were too hard to tune. Alot of guys with FI have in car widebands and the other programming/scanning software already also.
I don't see this a patch either. It is merely upgrading one sensor the computer uses and changing some programming to compensate for it. The stock computer is really alot more powerful than people give it credit for. It can adjust based on many different conditions and is very easy to tune if need be. So easy to tune in fact that just about anyone could do it. I've never used an aftermarket computer but, from reading ChrisB's last post it seems like they are not as simple to tune.
Not trying to argue just going over the good and bad of each setup.
I don't see this a patch either. It is merely upgrading one sensor the computer uses and changing some programming to compensate for it. The stock computer is really alot more powerful than people give it credit for. It can adjust based on many different conditions and is very easy to tune if need be. So easy to tune in fact that just about anyone could do it. I've never used an aftermarket computer but, from reading ChrisB's last post it seems like they are not as simple to tune.
Not trying to argue just going over the good and bad of each setup.
07-31-2003, 01:11 PM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits.
sscam68 - I did forget to add in a scanning program, thanks. Wouldn't you still need one for the FAST setup though?? For someone like me who has most of the stuff in that list already it really is a no brainer though to go with the Pro-M MAF setup. The only thing I would need is the MAF hardware and maybe a high-z box if the Big low-z injectors weren't enough or were too hard to tune. Alot of guys with FI have in car widebands and the other programming/scanning software already also.
I don't see this a patch either. It is merely upgrading one sensor the computer uses and changing some programming to compensate for it. The stock computer is really alot more powerful than people give it credit for. It can adjust based on many different conditions and is very easy to tune if need be. So easy to tune in fact that just about anyone could do it. I've never used an aftermarket computer but, from reading ChrisB's last post it seems like they are not as simple to tune.
Not trying to argue just going over the good and bad of each setup.
I don't see this a patch either. It is merely upgrading one sensor the computer uses and changing some programming to compensate for it. The stock computer is really alot more powerful than people give it credit for. It can adjust based on many different conditions and is very easy to tune if need be. So easy to tune in fact that just about anyone could do it. I've never used an aftermarket computer but, from reading ChrisB's last post it seems like they are not as simple to tune.
Not trying to argue just going over the good and bad of each setup.
I see your point and I am actually going to be right along with you
LS1Edit $550
EFILive $390 (better logging cap. than Autotap)
Wideband $450
Total $1390
Pretty much the initial investment if your going to do your own tuning. I also see the only thing left is the Pro-M MAF & the Hi-Z box (if required), yeah your right its a no brainer
I just figured at the powerlevels that these other electronics are required a FAST system doesn't sound to far off as far as price is concerned and the control you have at WOT, i.e. closed loop vs open loop, would be much better.
07-31-2003, 01:29 PM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. It's all conjecture until someone talks to Pro-M and finds out what the stuff will cost.
Also, we run high impedance injectors stock. You would need a box to run low impedance injectors.
Also, we run high impedance injectors stock. You would need a box to run low impedance injectors.
07-31-2003, 02:26 PM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. PSJ - It looks like ChrisB has already bought the stuff and it cost him ~$775.
I got mixed up on the injectors. I'll go back and edit my post as to not confuse others.
sscam68 - Closed loop operation at WOT would be nice, especially with turbo setup where boost can be varied easily which could throw off the A/F ratio on a non closed loop system. That is definately a nice feature of FAST.
I got mixed up on the injectors. I'll go back and edit my post as to not confuse others.
sscam68 - Closed loop operation at WOT would be nice, especially with turbo setup where boost can be varied easily which could throw off the A/F ratio on a non closed loop system. That is definately a nice feature of FAST.
07-31-2003, 10:47 PM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. Yep, I already orderded the stuff - I actually paid a tad less as I picked it up from a dealer, but those prices are retail from the pro-m pricesheet on their website, plus what I was told - here is the email transcript - at least the pertinent parts. It is a bit cheaper to go through an authorized dealer though, so I would suggest that.
Chris
From: Jim Gonzales [mailto:sales@pro-flow.com]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 9:45 AM
To: 'Chris Bennight'
Cc: sales@pro-flow.com
If you download an order form off the internet and fax it it, it will work fine. Or you can just email me with your ordering information. Eg application, car, model, frequency vs flow that you want and we will calibrate up a meter. This is a custom meter and we do not have a specific part number per se. Also request a 37 flow point transfer function. We do charge extra for the 37 flow points. $75 more.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Bennight [mailto:Chris@slowcar.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:01 PM
To: 'Jim Gonzales'
Subject: RE: TECH
No problem –
800g/sec = 2880 kg/hr. Really 2500-3000 kg/hr will work for me. The conversion to CFM would depend on the density of the air, and since in my case it would be on the boost side I have no idea what that would be – so hopefully we can use the massflow values above.
If you can let me know what P/N I need, and how I would go about ordering it (so I can get the flow vs frequency information, etc) I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks again for all your help!
Chris Bennight
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Gonzales [mailto:sales@pro-flow.com]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 12:25 AM
To: 'Chris Bennight'
Chris, we rescale the flow to be within the usable frequency range of the computer. I need the conversion of 800 g/sec to kg/hr or cfm. A blow thru meter would be the univer. And we would give you the flow vs. frequency transfer function so that you could do with it what you want.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Bennight [mailto:Chris@slowcar.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 7:06 AM
To: 'Jim Gonzales'
Subject: TECH
Hadn’t heard anything back, so was just following up on my earlier questions below:
1) Which meter would I need (Ford style) to meter air on the pressure side from 0 -> 800 g/sec
2) I still wasn’t quite clear on what you could do on the calibration – say I purchase the meter recommended above in (1) and your Ford -> GM Voltage to Frequency converter – I will still need to know the calibration to make it work (and I don’t think it could be a normal GM calibration as using the stock transfer function the frequency at 800 g/sec would be higher than the max sampling rate the pcm will accept for that input). Is it possible to get a sheet from you giving me the Flow vs. Frequency for the MAF/Converter combination, or the Flow vs. Voltage for the maf recommended for (1) and then the function the converter uses to take the voltage to a frequency output?
Thanks,
Chris Bennight
Chris
From: Jim Gonzales [mailto:sales@pro-flow.com]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 9:45 AM
To: 'Chris Bennight'
Cc: sales@pro-flow.com
If you download an order form off the internet and fax it it, it will work fine. Or you can just email me with your ordering information. Eg application, car, model, frequency vs flow that you want and we will calibrate up a meter. This is a custom meter and we do not have a specific part number per se. Also request a 37 flow point transfer function. We do charge extra for the 37 flow points. $75 more.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Bennight [mailto:Chris@slowcar.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:01 PM
To: 'Jim Gonzales'
Subject: RE: TECH
No problem –
800g/sec = 2880 kg/hr. Really 2500-3000 kg/hr will work for me. The conversion to CFM would depend on the density of the air, and since in my case it would be on the boost side I have no idea what that would be – so hopefully we can use the massflow values above.
If you can let me know what P/N I need, and how I would go about ordering it (so I can get the flow vs frequency information, etc) I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks again for all your help!
Chris Bennight
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Gonzales [mailto:sales@pro-flow.com]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 12:25 AM
To: 'Chris Bennight'
Chris, we rescale the flow to be within the usable frequency range of the computer. I need the conversion of 800 g/sec to kg/hr or cfm. A blow thru meter would be the univer. And we would give you the flow vs. frequency transfer function so that you could do with it what you want.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Bennight [mailto:Chris@slowcar.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 7:06 AM
To: 'Jim Gonzales'
Subject: TECH
Hadn’t heard anything back, so was just following up on my earlier questions below:
1) Which meter would I need (Ford style) to meter air on the pressure side from 0 -> 800 g/sec
2) I still wasn’t quite clear on what you could do on the calibration – say I purchase the meter recommended above in (1) and your Ford -> GM Voltage to Frequency converter – I will still need to know the calibration to make it work (and I don’t think it could be a normal GM calibration as using the stock transfer function the frequency at 800 g/sec would be higher than the max sampling rate the pcm will accept for that input). Is it possible to get a sheet from you giving me the Flow vs. Frequency for the MAF/Converter combination, or the Flow vs. Voltage for the maf recommended for (1) and then the function the converter uses to take the voltage to a frequency output?
Thanks,
Chris Bennight
08-01-2003, 10:18 AM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits.
can some one explain closed loop and open loop.
i know thats something to do with reading our o2s but am not sure what that means.
i know thats something to do with reading our o2s but am not sure what that means.
I guess the advantage of a fast system is that it is constantly reading from the wideband 02s, even under WOT conditions, so it can run better up top due to it's ability to change on the fly. But is it worth the price???
I'm no pro, this is just how I understand it.
Mike
08-01-2003, 11:01 AM
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Re: Ok the MAF topic again - limits. Here is an excerpt from a text book that puts it in english.
"open loop control takes information about operating conditions from various sensors and calculates signals to the actuators, including injector pulse time, spark advace, and idle air control. In open loop the computer does the best it can based on inputs from sensors and information in its memories about what the engine should be doing...........But open loop mode has no feedback, it doesn't know the answer to the questions "How am i really doing?"
"open loop does not use oxygen sensor input. rather, the computer calculates the fuel injector pulse width from the inputs of the IAT, ECT, MAP or MAF,TPS and RPM"
Closed loop basically uses the injector and feedback from the O2's to control fuel.
This is an excerpt from Corvette Fuel Injection. I am not to sure if this is specifically for LS1 EMS, but it should provide some insight as to the difference.
With an aftermarket EMS at WOT the PCM is still in closed loop, providing much better control.
Hope this helps clear things up a bit
Frank
"open loop control takes information about operating conditions from various sensors and calculates signals to the actuators, including injector pulse time, spark advace, and idle air control. In open loop the computer does the best it can based on inputs from sensors and information in its memories about what the engine should be doing...........But open loop mode has no feedback, it doesn't know the answer to the questions "How am i really doing?"
"open loop does not use oxygen sensor input. rather, the computer calculates the fuel injector pulse width from the inputs of the IAT, ECT, MAP or MAF,TPS and RPM"
Closed loop basically uses the injector and feedback from the O2's to control fuel.
This is an excerpt from Corvette Fuel Injection. I am not to sure if this is specifically for LS1 EMS, but it should provide some insight as to the difference.
With an aftermarket EMS at WOT the PCM is still in closed loop, providing much better control.
Hope this helps clear things up a bit
Frank