Got some dyno numbers and have some questions
07-26-2008, 05:50 PM
#21
I've had issues on one of my turbo cars blowing spark out due to too wide of a gap, it usually breaks up bad enough that you can tell.
Are you positive you aren't getting some knock retard? IMO you're pushing the limits of pump gas with your combo. Since you say leaning it out actually lost power, and I really (in my limited experience) doubt the valvesprings or any other mechanical item is causing the problem, it just sounds like the timing is being yanked by the ECM.
One other possibility: Could your dyno operator be ******* up? You are making very similar power to me (right now anyway) and my graph looks different. I made 740-750 on 13 psi on my 408/D1SC pump gas setup, but the second you whack the throttle on the dyno it jumps over 500 and climbs till shut down (6500). Not knowing the rest of the car setup (suspension, etc), but mine doesn't do that bad on the track. You said you're blowing tires off in 2nd gear on the strip, that could be just poor prep or suspension combo but it could be the power. I dunno, just thinking aloud.
Are you positive you aren't getting some knock retard? IMO you're pushing the limits of pump gas with your combo. Since you say leaning it out actually lost power, and I really (in my limited experience) doubt the valvesprings or any other mechanical item is causing the problem, it just sounds like the timing is being yanked by the ECM.
One other possibility: Could your dyno operator be ******* up? You are making very similar power to me (right now anyway) and my graph looks different. I made 740-750 on 13 psi on my 408/D1SC pump gas setup, but the second you whack the throttle on the dyno it jumps over 500 and climbs till shut down (6500). Not knowing the rest of the car setup (suspension, etc), but mine doesn't do that bad on the track. You said you're blowing tires off in 2nd gear on the strip, that could be just poor prep or suspension combo but it could be the power. I dunno, just thinking aloud.
07-26-2008, 05:54 PM
#22
I think he is a little low, but I wouldn't go so far to say he is 150 RWHP off. I was refferring to his cubic inches, and the fact its easier to see more boost and as a consequence more power from the boost with smaller cubes. Do a search and you will find that the guys with more than 400 cubic inch engines trying to run big boost numbers usually have a hard time seeing more than 18#'s, where as the guys with forged stock cubes or 383's do boost into the 20-25# range. I wasn't aware he was already at the max pulley combo for his blower. Having a large cam can also lead to lower boost numbers. Swapping to a more boost friendly size cam can make a difference. As far as the IAT's go, mine is usually at whatever the outside air temperature is. Him being at 104 (and doing that with ice keep in mind) tells me he could do better with meth injection. If no more power with added boost, then with added timing.
I retract my original statement that they were "high". But they are not ideal, especially if you had to use ice to achieve 104 IAT's. F1R's and lots of cubes is bound to make power. All I was saying was that you usually will see more boost, and as a consequence more power with a smaller cubed engine such as a 383.
I retract my original statement that they were "high". But they are not ideal, especially if you had to use ice to achieve 104 IAT's. F1R's and lots of cubes is bound to make power. All I was saying was that you usually will see more boost, and as a consequence more power with a smaller cubed engine such as a 383.
07-26-2008, 05:55 PM
#23
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I would take it to the track if all else is good with it. Who races dynos anyways?
Pack that ice box and setup the IAT timing modifier so if it runs away your safe.
A setup like so should trap easy 140s with a 6spd.
Im betting the dyno is not correct in this situation.
Also 19deg is a bit for pump fuel and a maxed blower. Hell a maxed f1r is a bit for pump fuel. When you race it at the track, i would strongly consider 110+ fuel. Dyno racing is one thing (expecially a non-loading), but when you make that long 4th gear pull at the strip, this is when things get nasty if the tune isnt on.
Your IAT's are low for having that blower maxed out. How big of W2A do you have?
While we do not run a f1r currently, we do run the f1a with a 3.90, and we trap 148 with a powerglide. We run a large w2a IC, and see 100-108IAT at the end of the strip, this is with a 3-4 gallon cell stuffed with ice. On the DYNO the IAT's only changed about 20deg from a pull, 50F to 70F, verified with a temp gun as well.
For a high hp setup as such, i would not even mess around with meth injection, just run the good gas.
Pack that ice box and setup the IAT timing modifier so if it runs away your safe.
A setup like so should trap easy 140s with a 6spd.
Im betting the dyno is not correct in this situation.
Also 19deg is a bit for pump fuel and a maxed blower. Hell a maxed f1r is a bit for pump fuel. When you race it at the track, i would strongly consider 110+ fuel. Dyno racing is one thing (expecially a non-loading), but when you make that long 4th gear pull at the strip, this is when things get nasty if the tune isnt on.
Your IAT's are low for having that blower maxed out. How big of W2A do you have?
While we do not run a f1r currently, we do run the f1a with a 3.90, and we trap 148 with a powerglide. We run a large w2a IC, and see 100-108IAT at the end of the strip, this is with a 3-4 gallon cell stuffed with ice. On the DYNO the IAT's only changed about 20deg from a pull, 50F to 70F, verified with a temp gun as well.
For a high hp setup as such, i would not even mess around with meth injection, just run the good gas.
07-26-2008, 05:57 PM
#24
I think he is a little low, but I wouldn't go so far to say he is 150 RWHP off. I was refferring to his cubic inches, and the fact its easier to see more boost and as a consequence more power from the boost with smaller cubes. Do a search and you will find that the guys with more than 400 cubic inch engines trying to run big boost numbers usually have a hard time seeing more than 18#'s, where as the guys with forged stock cubes or 383's do boost into the 20-25# range. I wasn't aware he was already at the max pulley combo for his blower. Having a large cam can also lead to lower boost numbers. Swapping to a more boost friendly size cam can make a difference. As far as the IAT's go, mine is usually at whatever the outside air temperature is. Him being at 104 (and doing that with ice keep in mind) tells me he could do better with meth injection. If no more power with added boost, then with added timing.
I retract my original statement that they were "high". But they are not ideal, especially if you had to use ice to achieve 104 IAT's. F1R's and lots of cubes is bound to make power. All I was saying was that you usually will see more boost, and as a consequence more power with a smaller cubed engine such as a 383.
I retract my original statement that they were "high". But they are not ideal, especially if you had to use ice to achieve 104 IAT's. F1R's and lots of cubes is bound to make power. All I was saying was that you usually will see more boost, and as a consequence more power with a smaller cubed engine such as a 383.
You're making my brain hurt.
You need to go back to boost 101. Boost is a measure of restriction. Smaller motors make more "boost" than larger motors (with the same blower/pulley) because they can't flow the air. Bigger motors register less boost because they are flowing the air, not stacking it up in the intake. Case in point, I bet you're running more boost than me and I bet I'm making ALOT more power than you.
I used to run 27-28 psi on my GN (234 C.I.) and only make about 500 RWHP. Why didn't I make more power? Hell, thats twice the boost I make now! Oh, thats right, the motor was little.
FWIW, I've never seen any larger c.i. guys complaining about problems making boost. Who cares what the gauge says, its all about the power. Like I said, I'm at 13 psi now. Last pull was 740 RWHP. Its been 757 once before. Any guy even close to that with a 347 or similarly smaller displacement is running more boost.
07-26-2008, 05:59 PM
#25
Higher boost does not always mean more power. Airflow is what makes power. A small engine that makes X amount power would need more boost than a larger engine because a larger engine can ingest a higher amount of airflow. Boost is just the indication of how much "backpressure" is present in the intake track. If I put this F1R on a stock engine, I might see the max boost of 38psi, but I am positively sure that it wouldn't make more power than my built motor.
Beat me to it....
07-26-2008, 06:00 PM
#27
I've had issues on one of my turbo cars blowing spark out due to too wide of a gap, it usually breaks up bad enough that you can tell.
Are you positive you aren't getting some knock retard? IMO you're pushing the limits of pump gas with your combo. Since you say leaning it out actually lost power, and I really (in my limited experience) doubt the valvesprings or any other mechanical item is causing the problem, it just sounds like the timing is being yanked by the ECM.
One other possibility: Could your dyno operator be ******* up? You are making very similar power to me (right now anyway) and my graph looks different. I made 740-750 on 13 psi on my 408/D1SC pump gas setup, but the second you whack the throttle on the dyno it jumps over 500 and climbs till shut down (6500). Not knowing the rest of the car setup (suspension, etc), but mine doesn't do that bad on the track. You said you're blowing tires off in 2nd gear on the strip, that could be just poor prep or suspension combo but it could be the power. I dunno, just thinking aloud.
Are you positive you aren't getting some knock retard? IMO you're pushing the limits of pump gas with your combo. Since you say leaning it out actually lost power, and I really (in my limited experience) doubt the valvesprings or any other mechanical item is causing the problem, it just sounds like the timing is being yanked by the ECM.
One other possibility: Could your dyno operator be ******* up? You are making very similar power to me (right now anyway) and my graph looks different. I made 740-750 on 13 psi on my 408/D1SC pump gas setup, but the second you whack the throttle on the dyno it jumps over 500 and climbs till shut down (6500). Not knowing the rest of the car setup (suspension, etc), but mine doesn't do that bad on the track. You said you're blowing tires off in 2nd gear on the strip, that could be just poor prep or suspension combo but it could be the power. I dunno, just thinking aloud.
The track was pretty hot and not prepped.
07-26-2008, 06:02 PM
#28
I would take it to the track if all else is good with it. Who races dynos anyways?
Pack that ice box and setup the IAT timing modifier so if it runs away your safe.
A setup like so should trap easy 140s with a 6spd.
Im betting the dyno is not correct in this situation.
Also 19deg is a bit for pump fuel and a maxed blower. Hell a maxed f1r is a bit for pump fuel. When you race it at the track, i would strongly consider 110+ fuel. Dyno racing is one thing (expecially a non-loading), but when you make that long 4th gear pull at the strip, this is when things get nasty if the tune isnt on.
Your IAT's are low for having that blower maxed out. How big of W2A do you have?
While we do not run a f1r currently, we do run the f1a with a 3.90, and we trap 148 with a powerglide. We run a large w2a IC, and see 100-108IAT at the end of the strip, this is with a 3-4 gallon cell stuffed with ice. On the DYNO the IAT's only changed about 20deg from a pull, 50F to 70F, verified with a temp gun as well.
For a high hp setup as such, i would not even mess around with meth injection, just run the good gas.
Pack that ice box and setup the IAT timing modifier so if it runs away your safe.
A setup like so should trap easy 140s with a 6spd.
Im betting the dyno is not correct in this situation.
Also 19deg is a bit for pump fuel and a maxed blower. Hell a maxed f1r is a bit for pump fuel. When you race it at the track, i would strongly consider 110+ fuel. Dyno racing is one thing (expecially a non-loading), but when you make that long 4th gear pull at the strip, this is when things get nasty if the tune isnt on.
Your IAT's are low for having that blower maxed out. How big of W2A do you have?
While we do not run a f1r currently, we do run the f1a with a 3.90, and we trap 148 with a powerglide. We run a large w2a IC, and see 100-108IAT at the end of the strip, this is with a 3-4 gallon cell stuffed with ice. On the DYNO the IAT's only changed about 20deg from a pull, 50F to 70F, verified with a temp gun as well.
For a high hp setup as such, i would not even mess around with meth injection, just run the good gas.
I'm with Jake here, I still question the dyno numbers.
I would really take his advice on the fuel. I'm concerned about the fuel system itself honestly. You're gonna use ALOT of fuel, I just question if what you have will keep up. Keep a close eye on the FP on a pass, I think you need a big pump. I'd back that timing down too, or run 116.
07-26-2008, 06:05 PM
#30
TECH Enthusiast
I am not real familiar with BIG FI HP stuff like yours, but I know on my 400rwhp turbo hayabusa, if I gap the plugs at anything over .018, we get "blow out"...(boost inhibiting the spark). It will make it either break up up top, develope a slight miss or just not make power. I am sure you have a full ignition setup etc but might be worth looking at the plugs. On our little 1300cc motors, anything over 10lbs of boost must have the gap at .020 or less or the blow out occurs.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
07-26-2008, 06:11 PM
#31
I would take it to the track if all else is good with it. Who races dynos anyways?
Pack that ice box and setup the IAT timing modifier so if it runs away your safe.
A setup like so should trap easy 140s with a 6spd.
Im betting the dyno is not correct in this situation.
Also 19deg is a bit for pump fuel and a maxed blower. Hell a maxed f1r is a bit for pump fuel. When you race it at the track, i would strongly consider 110+ fuel. Dyno racing is one thing (expecially a non-loading), but when you make that long 4th gear pull at the strip, this is when things get nasty if the tune isnt on.
Your IAT's are low for having that blower maxed out. How big of W2A do you have?
While we do not run a f1r currently, we do run the f1a with a 3.90, and we trap 148 with a powerglide. We run a large w2a IC, and see 100-108IAT at the end of the strip, this is with a 3-4 gallon cell stuffed with ice. On the DYNO the IAT's only changed about 20deg from a pull, 50F to 70F, verified with a temp gun as well.
For a high hp setup as such, i would not even mess around with meth injection, just run the good gas.
Pack that ice box and setup the IAT timing modifier so if it runs away your safe.
A setup like so should trap easy 140s with a 6spd.
Im betting the dyno is not correct in this situation.
Also 19deg is a bit for pump fuel and a maxed blower. Hell a maxed f1r is a bit for pump fuel. When you race it at the track, i would strongly consider 110+ fuel. Dyno racing is one thing (expecially a non-loading), but when you make that long 4th gear pull at the strip, this is when things get nasty if the tune isnt on.
Your IAT's are low for having that blower maxed out. How big of W2A do you have?
While we do not run a f1r currently, we do run the f1a with a 3.90, and we trap 148 with a powerglide. We run a large w2a IC, and see 100-108IAT at the end of the strip, this is with a 3-4 gallon cell stuffed with ice. On the DYNO the IAT's only changed about 20deg from a pull, 50F to 70F, verified with a temp gun as well.
For a high hp setup as such, i would not even mess around with meth injection, just run the good gas.
I have 2-230 Spearco intercooler, a pair of 1/2" water lines running the whole circuit with a 7gal custom tank and heat exchangers. At the track I can keep the temps well below 100F when I let it cool down and pack the tank with ice.
07-26-2008, 06:12 PM
#32
I'm with Jake here, I still question the dyno numbers.
I would really take his advice on the fuel. I'm concerned about the fuel system itself honestly. You're gonna use ALOT of fuel, I just question if what you have will keep up. Keep a close eye on the FP on a pass, I think you need a big pump. I'd back that timing down too, or run 116.
I would really take his advice on the fuel. I'm concerned about the fuel system itself honestly. You're gonna use ALOT of fuel, I just question if what you have will keep up. Keep a close eye on the FP on a pass, I think you need a big pump. I'd back that timing down too, or run 116.
07-26-2008, 06:15 PM
#34
I am not real familiar with BIG FI HP stuff like yours, but I know on my 400rwhp turbo hayabusa, if I gap the plugs at anything over .018, we get "blow out"...(boost inhibiting the spark). It will make it either break up up top, develope a slight miss or just not make power. I am sure you have a full ignition setup etc but might be worth looking at the plugs. On our little 1300cc motors, anything over 10lbs of boost must have the gap at .020 or less or the blow out occurs.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
07-26-2008, 06:16 PM
#37
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I am not getting an indication of engine knock on any of my scans at WOT. I have read about other builder with a similar 400+ci and F-1R making big power on pump gas.
I have 2-230 Spearco intercooler, a pair of 1/2" water lines running the whole circuit with a 7gal custom tank and heat exchangers. At the track I can keep the temps well below 100F when I let it cool down and pack the tank with ice.
I have 2-230 Spearco intercooler, a pair of 1/2" water lines running the whole circuit with a 7gal custom tank and heat exchangers. At the track I can keep the temps well below 100F when I let it cool down and pack the tank with ice.
The reason im kinda boggled is, we dyno'd 750rwhp (mustang loading dyno) with a 5600stall/power glide on 15psi of boost. This was with zero ice in the intercooler, just room temp water. F1a with 3.90 pulley. After such, we went out an ran a 9.16 @ 148mph.
Things dont ad up, the pickup is most likely incorrect. Try a optical Eye on the balancer. Wheel speed calulation is not correct either with a high hp car as it usualy spins.
I would run the car, or try a diffrent dyno. The plugs around .030 should be plenty.
07-26-2008, 06:18 PM
#39
I am not real familiar with BIG FI HP stuff like yours, but I know on my 400rwhp turbo hayabusa, if I gap the plugs at anything over .018, we get "blow out"...(boost inhibiting the spark). It will make it either break up up top, develope a slight miss or just not make power. I am sure you have a full ignition setup etc but might be worth looking at the plugs. On our little 1300cc motors, anything over 10lbs of boost must have the gap at .020 or less or the blow out occurs.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Not to sound like a dick, but a Busa motor couldn't be less relevant.