Alcohol Conversion questions
Thread Starter
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Alcohol Conversion questions I was thinking about making the title "Becoming an alcoholic", but at the last minute I thought it might not go over so well. lol
I've done some looking around, and with the merciless gas prices, I really do want to make the switch. Either to ethanol or methanol, I don't really care which, so long as it's cheaper than gas. lol
Has anyone here done it? What exactly is needed? Is there anywhere I can get complete instructions?
I've searched here, the PCM forum, and google. So far it looks like I need injectors, metal fuel lines all the way, and possibly an intake heater (one college site that participated in an ethanol challenge had to use on on their truck).
What about the gas tank? These are plastic, aren't they? Would that be susceptible to corrosion/erosion the same as rubber?
What about the fuel pump? Or fuel filter?
Once all that is in place, what about the PCM? Does it need to be reprogrammed, and what would be involved with doing that? And along those lines, what about the O2 sensors? Would they still work properly?
TIA
I've done some looking around, and with the merciless gas prices, I really do want to make the switch. Either to ethanol or methanol, I don't really care which, so long as it's cheaper than gas. lol
Has anyone here done it? What exactly is needed? Is there anywhere I can get complete instructions?
I've searched here, the PCM forum, and google. So far it looks like I need injectors, metal fuel lines all the way, and possibly an intake heater (one college site that participated in an ethanol challenge had to use on on their truck).
What about the gas tank? These are plastic, aren't they? Would that be susceptible to corrosion/erosion the same as rubber?
What about the fuel pump? Or fuel filter?
Once all that is in place, what about the PCM? Does it need to be reprogrammed, and what would be involved with doing that? And along those lines, what about the O2 sensors? Would they still work properly?
TIA
To be cost effective, the alcohol would have to cost less than 1/3 the price of gasoline. Also, it would suck to fill up constantly because of only getting maybe 5 miles per gallon. Did I forget to mention flushing the fuel system after every drive to keep water that would dissolve in the alcohol from corroding everything?
Thread Starter
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by gametech
To be cost effective, the alcohol would have to cost less than 1/3 the price of gasoline. Also, it would suck to fill up constantly because of only getting maybe 5 miles per gallon. Did I forget to mention flushing the fuel system after every drive to keep water that would dissolve in the alcohol from corroding everything?
Also, 1/3 the price would be sweet, but it's hardly a requirement. Like I said, injectors, all metal fuel lines - I'm not sure about the tank, pump, or filter, or the need for an inlet air heater, or of the PCM modding requirements. I have read that E85 uses a different fuel map. (oh, there are also factory E95 vehicles too)
The mods are minimal when you get right down to it, and will grant ROI eventually (and not as long as it might seem at first).
I just need to know more specific details than what I have.
Anybody?
I may have exagerated a bit, but the fact is ethanol or methanol both carry a lot of oxygen and will dissolve water. Carrying oxygen in a liquid fuel is good for making power, but terrible for fuel economy. The alcohol would have to be much cheaper than gas to be cost effective. Dissolving water from condensation or tank leakage is an entirely different issue, but would still have to be overcome to make the package work. Also, the fuel injectors would have to be so large that you may require low impedance injectors for the necessary flow rate. This would necessitate an aftermarket fuel management computer. To make the motor as efficient as possible, you would also want to increase the compression ratio to take advantage of the cooler burn characteristics and higher octane rating of the alcohol. There are numerous other issues that would need to be addressed as well.
Thread Starter
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Again, that does not jive with the existence of factory E85 vehicles.
I'm not here to argue with people who are against the idea. I just want the specific information from people who have actually done such a conversion. (and not necessarily just to an LS1) Nothing else.
I'm not here to argue with people who are against the idea. I just want the specific information from people who have actually done such a conversion. (and not necessarily just to an LS1) Nothing else.
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Basically you would need stainless steel lines, rail, bigger injectors, reworked PCM modifications, stainless steel fuel tank (needed since ethanol or methanol will eat your current plastic one), and possible a bigger fuel pump. Im all for alternative fuels, for environmental purposes, but my suggestion is to go with Ethanol since its easier to get a hold of and actually easier to make. Need websites, let me know.
Erik
Erik
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 689
Likes: 0
E85 requires about 32% more fuel mass than gasoline, so figure on your mileage dropping around 30%. Ethanol is fine for your gas tank and lines. METHANOL is the obscenely corrosive one that will take more than double the fuel volume as gasoline, and that you need to flush your fuel system every time you run it.
I have a Cousin who lives in Brazil right now, and for them it's way cheaper to run pure ethanol from the pumps than their pump gas, which is actually only around 85 octane. He has a 95 Integra with new rods/pistons and a T3/TO4E 60-trim, running pure ethanol in the stock gas tank, dual walbro's, not sure on the lines, 900CC alcohol injectors, he runs 25 pounds of boost on that stuff all day every day with cool as hell EGT's and 10.5:1 compression. If you can get E85 at a few local stations, go for it, you'll be able to run more boost on it than pump gas!
I have a Cousin who lives in Brazil right now, and for them it's way cheaper to run pure ethanol from the pumps than their pump gas, which is actually only around 85 octane. He has a 95 Integra with new rods/pistons and a T3/TO4E 60-trim, running pure ethanol in the stock gas tank, dual walbro's, not sure on the lines, 900CC alcohol injectors, he runs 25 pounds of boost on that stuff all day every day with cool as hell EGT's and 10.5:1 compression. If you can get E85 at a few local stations, go for it, you'll be able to run more boost on it than pump gas!
Trending Topics
To be cost effective, the alcohol would have to cost less than 1/3 the price of gasoline. Also, it would suck to fill up constantly because of only getting maybe 5 miles per gallon. Did I forget to mention flushing the fuel system after every drive to keep water that would dissolve in the alcohol from corroding everything?
Holy **** you're retarded. E85 IS NOT METHANOL.
None of this is true. Quit spewing incorrect, 10th hand info. Leave the advice giving to people who have EXPERIENCE with the topic at hand, not regurgitated internet bull ****.
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo
Awesome K5 Blazer Restomod Comes With C7 Corvette Power
Verdad Gallardo
10 Camaros You Should Never Buy
10 LS Engine Myths That Refuse to Die
Verdad Gallardo
To clarify a few things...
You said want something cheaper than gas... probably not going to happen, unless you mean cheaper than race fuel. Then E85 gets the win.
E85 is not cheaper to use than gasoline unless you are located in the midwest US. For the rest of us, it ends up costing more because of the added volume required. Here is it 10% cheaper than regular gas. As stated above, you need 1/3 more volume, so look at price accordingly.
As for methanol, forget it unless you are running a race only setup. Most places sell it for over $3 per gallon & you need 2x as much as gasoline.
Preferrably, you should not have any metal fuel lines in the system.
You did not state your power level.... you may need a larger pump & injectors depending on your power level.
An intake or fuel heater is not required.
You said want something cheaper than gas... probably not going to happen, unless you mean cheaper than race fuel. Then E85 gets the win.
E85 is not cheaper to use than gasoline unless you are located in the midwest US. For the rest of us, it ends up costing more because of the added volume required. Here is it 10% cheaper than regular gas. As stated above, you need 1/3 more volume, so look at price accordingly.
As for methanol, forget it unless you are running a race only setup. Most places sell it for over $3 per gallon & you need 2x as much as gasoline.
Preferrably, you should not have any metal fuel lines in the system.
You did not state your power level.... you may need a larger pump & injectors depending on your power level.
An intake or fuel heater is not required.
Why would they run an intake heater? OP please tell us more about it.
That is simply untrue, the brake specific fuel consumption of an e85 motor is not that high and is comparable to that of a turbocharged motor.
There have been many members on this website who have performed very successful e85 conversions with none of the problems you listed.
Off topic, as a Brazilian I'll tell you the reason our ethanol is so cheap is not because of its purity but because it is derived from sugarcane rather than that failure of subsidized corn ethanol. I hope my comment doesn't mushroom this thread into a political discussion.
There have been many members on this website who have performed very successful e85 conversions with none of the problems you listed.
Intake heaters were used on carburted engines in cold climates.
The vaporization that takes place when fuel is atomized in a carb, makes the air get very cold to the point that ice can form in the carb throat & eventually choke off the engine or cause a piece of ice to dislodge & block the throttle open. Neither are good situations. These are not typically problems in efi engines.
The vaporization that takes place when fuel is atomized in a carb, makes the air get very cold to the point that ice can form in the carb throat & eventually choke off the engine or cause a piece of ice to dislodge & block the throttle open. Neither are good situations. These are not typically problems in efi engines.
