I wanted to at least add something on a positive note.
I can say that I feel the LS1 engine due to decent compression and great ignition system would fare much better with an ethanol test than most other engines out there.

I'd even be willing to help someone complete the test, especially if they were local around STL.
I do have a lot of test equipment and practice setting up controls to reduce variables for tests.
I find testing fuels and additives quite interesting in the way they affect performance and the tuning requirements.
I recently saw a car go for sale on here that I'd worked with.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/vehicles-sale-lsx-powered-only/498465-98-c5-corvette.html

It was interesting in that it runs best with 87 octane, and actually runs quite well breaking into the 11's with highway gears in good air. It has the LPE GT2-3 cam and acts very stock actually. I think it surprises a lot of people with the 87 deal.

I have done some limited testing of the acetone mix with gasoline. I got measurable differences in two out of three engines I tested, but have yet to get any improvement in fuel mileage, though the indications are that the acetone seems to mimick running a lower octane which normally improves mileage. The differences I did measure were in cold-starting and engine warm-up cycle. Acetone significantly improved both.

Like I said I sure don't mind getting real test results, but from what I've experienced my money says that ethanol would bomb the tests.
It would also be "messy" and slow getting through the warm-up cycle that the EPA is so concerned with.

 

I'm confused here, some have said the Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio for E85 is 9:1, then if i keep my car at the normal AFR (14.7:1) i'm running too lean correct? Obviously at WOT my car is not 14.7:1, it's more like 13:1 but if E85's Stoich.AFR is richer, then aren't i running lean?

 

Stoich is stoich. When changing fuels it's to your advantage to start using lamda instead of AFR to reduce confusion.
An EFI system using O2's for closed loop will still work towards keeping you stoich, but I can tell you from experience that NB O2's aren't going to function right with a large % of ethanol present. The temperature of the exhaust gas will change dramatically.

Tuning for ethanol E85 or 100% I highly suggest running open loop and setting your wideband to read lamda instead of AFR.

 

I just looked at the E85 price yesterday and it was $2.50 compared with $2.80 per gallon with regular 87.
At prices like that the ethanol is a terribly BAD deal to run in your car.
As was said earlier, pricing would have to change significantly to even come close to be worth the hassle.

 

Here is a real world example of someone running E85 here for approximately 2 years along with some good info on answers to many of the questions and comments which seem to keep popping up.

http://etanol.nu/forum/viewtopic.php...e9093a0c82ad45

 

I've also seen a few examples of people posting online boasting of either how easy the conversion was, or how well their vehicle runs on E85, pure ethanol, or a blend of gasoline and E85.
Most of these reports make me think B.S.
Maybe it's just me or my problem with ethanol,
but the situation seems very unlikely considering the well known characteristics of the fuel, and commonly seen results from those testing it, including my own test results.

Problems I'd expect to see/hear these people report would be
#1 how the closed loop routine and NBO2's were not (happy) responding in a normal, predictable, or consistant manner. Results should end up being fuel trims that are okay in one (low) load range of driving, but far off in high-load ranges that are used less frequently. Frequent O2 errors should also be occuring setting the CEL and probably affecting drivability to a very noticable extent.
#2 Should be reports of hesitations/stumbles with throttle transitions. Even taking the NBO2's out of the equation won't solve this problem without spending some serious time on a OL tune.
#3 Even with a great OL tune there would be issues with starting and especially starting and drivability with both cold engine & air temperatures. The cold would also aggrevate throttle transistions as well.
Alcohol simply does not like the cold. Misfires are increased greatly and even when not seriously misfiring, efficiency goes way down. Warming the engine up in reasonable time, and getting into a workable closed-loop is simply not in the cards for alcohol.

Now I can see stretching the % ethanol way past the normal 10% by mixing gasoline with E85 and for the most part getting away with it. Someone reported the limit to be somewhere around the 40% maybe, which may be true. I'm just saying that stronger concentrations of ethanol should not be so easily run as people are being led to believe.
Just because someone who is boosted seems to get positive results at WOT with alcohol doesn't mean that everything is fine for 99% of normal street driving.
Compare this to trying to run C16 in your tank for everyday driving just because your boosted engine can make more power at WOT.
You will run into serious issues running C16 for daily driving.

Finally, no one has to believe me or give my opinions any credit at all.
Feel free to try the tests yourself. It's easy enough to fill your tank with either E85, pure ethanol, pure methanol, or C16 if you'd like to experience first-hand the problems I'm talking about here with daily driving.

Denatured alcohol can be found at many common hardware stores, and most cities have chemical supply warehouses with some kind of outlet.

J-rod, you said you have many years of running alcohol fuels in race cars. You should be very familiar with these problems, so I question why you seem to be denying them for the most part.
Try to think about all the alcohol fueled engines you've been around, and the number of them that had no cold-start/warm-up issues, would hold a good AFR while driving in normal traffic on the street, or wouldn't knock you out from exhaust fumes due to all the low-load misfires at idle and low-throttle conditions.
Without having to use gasoline to get around these problems, how many would that be?

 

See, what I find interesting is how you post. You come in demanding scientific proof, other wise everyone else is wrong. Then you post up your Op-ed comments about

"Well I read this, and I think its B.S.".
"here are the problems I expect to see"

You have no report of trouble, so you choose to make up issues that you might see to validate your argument. You've done so in this thread, and you did so in the thread on piston coatings.

When someone makes a report which doesn't agree with your predetermined notions, you immediate call it into question, call it B.S. and demand proof. Problem is when you are provided proof you deem it "not scientifically credible" or "not up to your standards of proof".

You make a big deal about 02 sensors narrow band 02's not working with e85. I still don't understand why, or why you seem to think there is an incompatibility with your stock narrow band sensors. It points to the fact that you have a basic lack of understanding on how an o2 sensor works...

They aren't swapped out in flex fuel vehicles why should they be in a normal fuel vehicle which is converted. The 02 in a flexfuel vehicle is the same as a stock gas only vehicle. If you look at the flexfuel .bin files you can see the stoich AFR changes, but for instance the VE tables remain the same.

If you want to be scientific, compare what Gm has done... Here is a .bin file to look at. Check HERE for binaries: Grab an `04 Tahoe L59 Motor Stock file to look over.

You must have the alcohol sensor on your vehicle to utilize the dual OLAFR tables & ethanol in general. If you don't have the sensor, your Stoch value and OLAFR table must change with the known concentration of ethanol in the tank. The VE Table is the same for all fuel concentrations.

Lambda 1 is Lambda 1 PERIOD I posted a chart for you which shows the Lambda values of e85. Change that table in your AFR table in your tune, and you'll be good to go. There are folks here from places like Sweden who have converted to e85 with simple changes to the PCM. In fact the changes for flexfuel vehicles is a sensor, and bigger injectors. If you can add a fuel sensor, then you can switch back and forth at will.

As for your point about denatured alcohol, in most cases that I'm aware of, that Methanol which is a totally differnet animal from ethanol. That has a totally different stoich value from ethanol.



I'm familiar with them enough to know you are making a mountain out of a molehill. You are also using issues you see in say methanol vs say ethanol.

Also you seem to mis-understand my point. You can use this fuel to your advantage. many folks in Cali are stuck using 91 octane. That precludes a lot of performance mods. Go over on CF, and see how many folks are using Torco additives to get up the octane levels in their cars. A swap to E85 and a quick re-tune, and their problems go away, especially the blower cars.

Also, I'm not only for E85. I'd really prefer to go the route of Butanol, as it is a direct replacement for gasoline with no PCM changes. Also the byproduct of Butanol fermentation is hydrogen, so you can make two alternative fuels at one time.

http://www.butanol.com/

Butanol has many superior properties as an alternative fuel when compared to ethanol. These include:

Higher energy content (110,000 Btu’s per gallon for butanol vs. 84,000 Btu per gallon for ethanol). Gasoline contains about 115,000 Btu’s per gallon.
Butanol is six times less “evaporative” than ethanol and 13.5 times less evaporative than gasoline, making it safer to use as an oxygenate in Arizona, California and other states, thereby eliminating the need for very special blends during the summer and winter months.
Butanol can be shipped through existing fuel pipelines where ethanol must be transported via rail, barge or truck
Butanol can be used as a replacement for gasoline gallon for gallon e.g. 100%, or any other percentage. Ethanol can only be used as an additive to gasoline up to about 85% and then only after significant modifications to the engine. Worldwide 10% ethanol blends predominate.

 

So after reading through all this, I find it interesting and troubling that we are all right and wrong at the same time. IMHO, this has to do with the assumptions we are basing our opinions and decisions on.

Ethanol is poop as applied. We make it the least efficient way, which is with corn. Were we to change that, and use more efficient feedstocks, the fundamentals of ethanol would change. The economics would make sense. We could actually consider replacing a large percentage of gasoline with ethanol without paying inordinate amounts of money for it or sacrificing our long term ability to produce it. We would be paying for something beyond just not using oil from people who do not like us and our policies. That goes right down to what you pay at the pump. And no, what you pay in the Northeast will not be what you pay here in the south for some time, and it will not always track the price of gasoline or crude if we decide in earnest to really use it.

The politics of ethanol vs hydrocarbon. No one will say "I want the US to swing on the nuts of producing countries," even if its Canada and Australia. But my belief is that economics will drive the decisions about who we deal with. When it becomes cheaper to grow x crop and make it into fuel than to drill a well in the GOM, deal with the Saudis, or refine Canadian heavy crude, we will do that. There will be those who would claim the price we pay above hydrocarbon is worth it for "security" purposes, and thats why NYMEX makes money trading crude futures, and also not really relevant to whether or not ethanol is a good fuel, or the way we should go, as other alternatives both exist and are practical.

Ethanol isn't a good fuel. This is a technical debate, but also is not really the cornerstone problem we have with it. As it applies to us right now, I think that we can tune out the problems it might cause in a 10% or less blend. You can get a car to run on it well. You cannot get around the milage problem, but if we could produce more for less resource, that might not matter. Obviously there will be some growing pains if we truly decide to use ethanol to make up a large part of our fuel needs. But the technical aspects can and will be solved if those decisions are made.

I think the more important thing is that those decisions get made at all - who is making them and when? I see a lack of leadership from either the government or the auto industry, and personally think that the leaders of the ethanol charge so far are the ethanol producers (or one in particular that makes 25% of all ethanol produced in the country), and the niche marketed, tax incentivised manufacturing we have so far seen. If anyone buys a flex fuel car in Houston, they will probably never run E85 in it (there is one station in Texas, I do believe), but they can get a tax break. What we see in the market is only as much as the fringe will support economically to the companies involved. I am not saying this isnt a reasonable step, but it remains to be seen if we get much farther than this. As was mentioned, Brazil runs nearly exlusively on sugar derived ethanol they make themselves. We are nowhere near that. We are supposed to use 7.5billion gallons by 2012, says the "Energy Bill." Our gasoline use in 2004 was 134Billion gallons. Adjusted for btu content, that 7.5B is only 4% of our gasoline demand at best, and that demand has been rising historically by as much as a percentage or two a year. So if we are indeed serious about using ethanol to replace gas and not just MTBE, we need to get serious about how we make it, how we sell it and how we use it.

So the upshot is this: We have to use ethanol now, barring energy bill amendments, so are we going to do it up big and put the time, effort and money into it so we can truly avail ourselves of the advantages that got it introduced in the first place, or just talk about it and have it for tax purposes but not get the benifits of its full potential, no matter how much more we decide to use. Even if it means pissing of the corn lobby and current ethanol producers. No one is really leading the charge except people that stand to make money off it, so right about now we should figure it out for ourselves.

I am interested in learning more about butinol.

 

You are misunderstanding me as well.
I have done my own tests and have my own data on both counts.
With the coating thread, I showed my data, and indeed asked to see the data that proved the effectiveness of TB coating of practical thickness. I got nothing so far.

In this thread I am NOT sharing my own data, but am inviting others to do testing and get their own data in this matter.
You think it's wrong to invite others to gather their own data?
I have made my predictions based on my own observations & data. I'm entitled to that at least.

 

Ethanol Is The ****!!! It Has Made Me Mad Money, Look Up Adm (as Stated Earlier By Another Poster) & Peix In The Stocks Section Of Any Search Engine Like Yahoo. Look At The Last Year Graph. **** Peix Has Doubled In The Last 3 Months...if You Are Worried About Gas Prices Just Put Some Of Your Money In Either Oil Or Ethanol...

 

Peix stock is up another 7 percent today has anyone taken my advice yet....if you didn't

 

hmm higher boost sounds nice... if only the price of ethanol was alot lower... and there was a way to keep it away from water... i had a weird experience with water in my corn gas, i went to my local texaco for what reason who knows but i got 5 gallons mixed it with oil like i normally do with my local exxon gas. poured it into my dirtbikes gas tank. kicked it nothing ... kicked it again and again.. nothing hmm yz not start on the first kick ? something seriously wrong.. went got exxon gas mixed it , started first ******* kick.. dunno what it was with the gas but it was crap and i heard the were using corn based fuel at that station..

 

How's that PEIX stock doing now?

 

yeah i know good thing i sold but i bought it when it was around 15 dollars and now sold it at 40ish almost tripled, you have to look at the whole market too, everything is down and down big the market took a huge hit, the dow was around 11700 and now it is barely over 11000, that is a massive hit, when the market goes back up everything will recover...look at google too it hit upper 470's then dropped to 350 ish that is a huge drop too...i didn't say it was going to keep going up forever, but you can laugh at all you want i almost tripled my money....

 

check out peix today with the market back on the up and up, it is up around 12-14 percent

 

up now near 20 percent

 

Favorite quote from another forum (paraphrased): "You can't run alcohol in your car. Ever stand near a midget/sprint car running alcohol? The fumes are terrible. Imagine that in rush hour traffic."


Imagine everyone commuting to work in sprint cars. That would be hilarious.


On another note: I believe cellulosic ethanol has some real potential not only as a fuel but as an booming economic factor as well.

 

I wonder if those people can tell the difference betwen meth and eth....I guess not

 

What all of this boils down too is this arabic nations has the world by its nuts, All major oil companies are crooks, They claim demand out reaches supply, Bullshit. Oh Iran is going to do somthing crazy bullshit. The gas you pump in your 8 sec f-body came from Iran or saudie or kwait. The main reason why gas is high now becuse its possible the arabic nations will cut off the oil supply soon. The reason is Iraq and the us meddling in affairs that dont concern us. We need a president who says hey we will step in only if you ask us, And for the love of god build an oil rig and dig somewhere there are 30 places where they see oil in the ground but wont dig Im done