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I drove it to work today (10 miles) and when I got there I checked the the nuts and I was able to snug a few of them up but I don’t remember which ones. The same story goes for when I got home. At first I thought maybe I was making headway as far as getting the lugs to seat because I only had to snug down a few. But after looking at the threads and pics of the threads from yesterday I think I’m tightening down the same three to the same depth. The kicker is the three are on the same side so I think that makes the likely hood of the rotor not being centered pretty good. Two nuts appear to have bottomed out on the lugs but the other three still have about two threads showing. I marked the ones with threads showing. The next time I drive it and if they loosen up a bit, and I bet they will, I’ll see if they tighten down further than they previously did. If they don’t I’ll either tare it down to see what I can see or maybe wait until I have the $ to take it to the rear end man. That being said I think the two lugs/nuts that are have bottomed out did always do so. So maybe there’s hope yet for the other three, but prob not at this point huh? Ten miles isn’t all that long for the nuts to be loosening up a little huh?
Mark the 3 with a sharpie to see if it's always those 3.
I did so we shall see. I bet though that they aren’t going to ever tighten down though. The not seated lug theory would sound more plausible if the ones that aren’t seated were “random.” But these are all on the same side which leads me to think that the rotor isn’t flush. I also think the vibration that I’m feeling might be the wheel being loose.
Last edited by Y2K_Frenzy; 01-24-2023 at 11:55 AM.
The not seated lug theory would sound more plausible if the ones that aren’t seated were “random.” But these are all on the same side which leads me to think that the rotor isn’t flush.
Have you measured the amount of exposed hub (meaning how much it extends beyond the rotor) at various points around its circumference? If your theory is correct (non-flush rotor) then there should also be less hub exposed along the area shared with the three lugs that appear to not be tightening down all the way.
Still curious to see how the studs and mounting surface look on the back of the flange. That might be very telling (i.e. there could be something defective with the flange holes, the flange itself, the stud heads, etc.). Also a good time to check the rotor hat for flatness (again, could be another defective part since its new along with these issues). I would do all that before taking it to a shop, just in case it's a warranty issue with the axle assembly or rotor you've already paid for.
Have you measured the amount of exposed hub (meaning how much it extends beyond the rotor) at various points around its circumference? If your theory is correct (non-flush rotor) then there should also be less hub exposed along the area shared with the three lugs that appear to not be tightening down all the way.
Still curious to see how the studs and mounting surface look on the back of the flange. That might be very telling (i.e. there could be something defective with the flange holes, the flange itself, the stud heads, etc.). Also a good time to check the rotor hat for flatness (again, could be another defective part since its new along with these issues). I would do all that before taking it to a shop, just in case it's a warranty issue with the axle assembly or rotor you've already paid for.
This is actually the second rotor that I’ve tried during this fiasco and I had to press it on with the lug nuts too. So assuming the rotor is good, what does that leave the axle flange and or studs? I was looking at axle shafts again and the only one that comes with the ABS ring is the Dorman that I have now. I was thinking about going with a Richmond axle but I’m not sure on the tone ring. I guess I could have someone press the ring off of the Dorman and on the new axle? I’m not sure if I have any recourse with the Dorman since I bought it off of Amazon and installed it myself, but if there was any I’d prob have to leave the ring on if they had me send it back. I see that Hawk’s has one for $60 prior to shipping and some place called Alloy USA has one for around $20. I’m not sure if the Alloy usa one will work or not. It says for 98-02 Camaro but in parentheses it says for USA Alloy axle part number xxxx.
If the axle flange/lugs and the rotor are the only parts that factor in whether or not the hub & wheel bolt down then I think a new shaft would be a pretty safe gamble. Even if the axle tube was bent the rotor should still slide on easy over the hub, no? What I’ve noticed and kinda forgot about is that when I go to put the wheel on it doesn’t really want to sit there on its own. I have to get a lug or two on it so it doesn’t fall off and if memory serves it was the same way with the donut. I know I’m beating a dead horse but, can one rule out the axle tube as to why the lug nuts won’t tighten down all the way? Would/could the rotor still sit flush on the hub if the tube was bent?
*Edit* It appears that that Alloy USA Axle is listed to fit 4 Chan 98-02’s so I guess their rings will probably work.
Last edited by Y2K_Frenzy; 01-24-2023 at 10:01 PM.
Even if the axle tube was bent the rotor should still slide on easy over the hub, no?...I know I’m beating a dead horse but, can one rule out the axle tube as to why the lug nuts won’t tighten down all the way? Would/could the rotor still sit flush on the hub if the tube was bent?
I have never personally bent an axle tube so I can't speak from direct experience, but I don't really see how doing so could cause non-flush rotor fitment on the axle flange or hub specifically, nor cause irregular fitment across the various studs. If the tube was bent I would expect any issues to be related to fitment of the axle shaft, rather than how the rotor fits against the flange or hub.
I have never personally bent an axle tube so I can't speak from direct experience, but I don't really see how doing so could cause non-flush rotor fitment on the axle flange or hub specifically, nor cause irregular fitment across the various studs. If the tube was bent I would expect any issues to be related to fitment of the axle shaft, rather than how the rotor fits against the flange or hub.
I think I’m fixing to drive it and see if the nuts tighten down any further. If they don’t then I think l’ll take it apart to have a look at the lugs from the rear. If they’ll look like they’re seated I think I might pull the trigger on a new shaft.
I think I’m fixing to drive it and see if the nuts tighten down any further. If they don’t then I think l’ll take it apart to have a look at the lugs from the rear. If they’ll look like they’re seated I think I might pull the trigger on a new shaft.
It’s pretty much the same. I had to snug down the same three when I got to work and they and they tightened down same depth as before. They all have two threads showing in the nut and that’s as far as they’ll go. Whereas the two that not come loose the stud is flush with the end of the nut. They were still tight with the same two threads showing when I got home but I took surface streets and I bet I only averaged 30 mph. Man I don’t really want to take that thing apart again but I guess I will. I just thought of this, I don’t have the box that the Dorman axle came in anymore so even if they would take it back I bet not without the box..
I took the rotors off and I looked at the back of the studs. It was kind of hard to tell but from what I could see that looked pretty much all the same. For good measure though I put some washers on the stud and used the impact and a spare lug nut to try and pull them in some. I actually think it did some because the rotor is easy to get on now but it still doesn’t line up quite center with the holes, and the rotor won’t sit on the hub on its own. It falls off like the shaft is sitting at a slant. I even lifted it with the floor jack under the rear control arm to try and lift housing to make it parallel (and even “up hill”) with the ground but the rotor kept falling forward like it was going “down hill.” The wheel won’t sit on the hub without being bolted down either. Shouldn’t the rotor just sit there on the hub with the lugs going through but not touching the holes? I put everything back together and the lug nuts all tighten down the same as they did before. I have two nuts that are “bottomed out” and the others all have two or so threads showing if you’re looking in the center of the nut. The head of the stud is flush with the end of the nut on the other two.
If the rotor is supposed to sit on the hub without falling of and it didn’t even with the end of the axle housing lifted past parallel, Can I assume it’s a bad axle flange/hub and or rotor? Here’s some pics and videos. The videos might take another post.
Thats 100% normal. Partially due to the offset of the wheels.
You might want to just order all new parts. I have customers who get things in their heads that theres a problem when theres not and I can swap good parts out for good parts and it solves it.
For good measure though I put some washers on the stud and used the impact and a spare lug nut to try and pull them in some. I actually think it did some because the rotor is easy to get on now but it still doesn’t line up quite center with the holes...
That's OK (that the center of the holes don't line up *perfectly*), the bigger issue was the fact that the rotor needed to be "forced" on. If getting the studs fully seated has solved that problem, then it also might correct any inconsistency with the bolt circle and/or torque retention thus correcting your problem with the self-loosening lug nuts.
Originally Posted by Y2K_Frenzy
...and the rotor won’t sit on the hub on its own. It falls off like the shaft is sitting at a slant. I even lifted it with the floor jack under the rear control arm to try and lift housing to make it parallel (and even “up hill”) with the ground but the rotor kept falling forward like it was going “down hill.” The wheel won’t sit on the hub without being bolted down either. Shouldn’t the rotor just sit there on the hub with the lugs going through but not touching the holes?
What I saw in your video of this looks pretty normal to me. In fact, when the factory installed the original rotors on these cars on the assembly line, they used a press-fit locking type washer on one stud to hold the rotor in place (to prevent it from falling off) before the remainder of the brakes were installed. All of my LS1 F-bodies came with these washers, from the factory, with their original brakes (this washer is something that actually needs to be removed if you install aftermarket wheels that don't have a relief area to accommodate, otherwise the wheel won't torque down evenly). So I wouldn't expect an interference fit.
It might not seem so loose once the brakes have been operated and the caliper pistons settle back into their usual neutral spot (I assume the piston was manipulated for brake assembly).
I also don't necessarily see any issue with how the wheel sits on the hub either. To the best of my memory, most or all of mine flop around roughly the same amount prior to any lug nuts being installed.
Originally Posted by Y2K_Frenzy
I put everything back together and the lug nuts all tighten down the same as they did before. I have two nuts that are “bottomed out” and the others all have two or so threads showing if you’re looking in the center of the nut. The head of the stud is flush with the end of the nut on the other two.
This, in itself, is not necessarily a problem. As long as they hold proper torque (which they very well might, now that the studs are fully seated and the rotor installs easily), it doesn't really matter and could be the result of inconsistent stud length from the aftermarket manufacturer.
At this point, I'd make sure the wheels are properly torqued down again and then do another test drive (long enough that it would have previously caused some loosening). You may have already fixed the only real problem that existed in the first place (meaning studs that just weren't fully seated).
That's OK (that the center of the holes don't line up *perfectly*), the bigger issue was the fact that the rotor needed to be "forced" on. If getting the studs fully seated has solved that problem, then it also might correct any inconsistency with the bolt circle and/or torque retention thus correcting your problem with the self-loosening lug nuts.
What I saw in your video of this looks pretty normal to me. In fact, when the factory installed the original rotors on these cars on the assembly line, they used a press-fit locking type washer on one stud to hold the rotor in place (to prevent it from falling off) before the remainder of the brakes were installed. All of my LS1 F-bodies came with these washers, from the factory, with their original brakes (this washer is something that actually needs to be removed if you install aftermarket wheels that don't have a relief area to accommodate, otherwise the wheel won't torque down evenly). So I wouldn't expect an interference fit.
It might not seem so loose once the brakes have been operated and the caliper pistons settle back into their usual neutral spot (I assume the piston was manipulated for brake assembly).
I also don't necessarily see any issue with how the wheel sits on the hub either. To the best of my memory, most or all of mine flop around roughly the same amount prior to any lug nuts being installed.
This, in itself, is not necessarily a problem. As long as they hold proper torque (which they very well might, now that the studs are fully seated and the rotor installs easily), it doesn't really matter and could be the result of inconsistent stud length from the aftermarket manufacturer.
At this point, I'd make sure the wheels are properly torqued down again and then do another test drive (long enough that it would have previously caused some loosening). You may have already fixed the only real problem that existed in the first place (meaning studs that just weren't fully seated).
Thanks. I didn’t get a chance to drive it today because it was raining and it’s supposed to be cold and wet all week I think but hopefully it’ll let up at some point. I hope all is well, we’ll see I guess. I’d feel more confident that they were going to stay tight if the difference in thread depths showing on the ones that came loose vs the ones that stayed tight wasn’t so vast. It seems too coincidental that the three nuts that aren’t flush with the tip of the stud are the ones that keeping coming loose. I was hoping that those three would be flush like the two that stay tight after attempting to seat the studs better. The rotor does go on easy now though. The back of it has gotten beaten up a bit though.
Here's an OEM pic of mine from way back. Showing those retaining washers (like an internal lockwasher) and hole space(s) between the lugs and rotor holes.
Retainer push on bolt are GM 11502737
Last edited by FirstYrLS1Z; 01-29-2023 at 10:45 PM.
Here's an OEM pic of mine from way back. Showing those retaining washers (like an internal lockwasher) and hole space(s) between the lugs and rotor holes.
Retainer push on bolt are GM 11502737
I hope my 3 loose ones aren’t rubbing the rotor anymore. I can see where they were on the back of the rotor and I think the bolts rubbing the rotor is what wasn’t, maybe still isn’t, letting it tighten down all the way.
Last edited by Y2K_Frenzy; 01-30-2023 at 07:09 AM.
Back in your other thread 'chirp with tire rotation after hitting curb', you got a new wheel, is the wheel that you've been dealing with in this thread the new one or one of the other originals ?
Have you examined the back side of the center section area for cracks, casting cracks are almost not visible but when lug nut torque is applied the cracks will open but you can't see that occurring because it's on the backside. Once crack(s) start, they get worse and worse. If cracked and getting worse would explain loss of lug nut torque. Just looking for reasons !
Back in your other thread 'chirp with tire rotation after hitting curb', you got a new wheel, is the wheel that you've been dealing with in this thread the new one or one of the other originals ?
Have you examined the back side of the center section area for cracks, casting cracks are almost not visible but when lug nut torque is applied the cracks will open but you can't see that occurring because it's on the backside. Once crack(s) start, they get worse and worse. If cracked and getting worse would explain loss of lug nut torque. Just looking for reasons !
Interesting thought. I wonder what the source was for the replacement wheel? Maybe just a refinished/repaired original? Or is someone reproducing that 16x8" wheel? If the former, then it would especially stand to reason that the wheel might have issues from poor repair or just age related flaws that were not addressed during the refinish.
Trying one of the other wheels in that location would quickly rule this out, wouldn't cause any harm, and be a good idea before spending any more money (but hopefully the issue is resolved now that the studs are seated).
Interesting thought. I wonder what the source was for the replacement wheel? Maybe just a refinished/repaired original? Or is someone reproducing that 16x8" wheel? If the former, then it would especially stand to reason that the wheel might have issues from poor repair or just age related flaws that were not addressed during the refinish.
Trying one of the other wheels in that location would quickly rule this out, wouldn't cause any harm, and be a good idea before spending any more money (but hopefully the issue is resolved now that the studs are seated).
Originally Posted by FirstYrLS1Z
Back in your other thread 'chirp with tire rotation after hitting curb', you got a new wheel, is the wheel that you've been dealing with in this thread the new one or one of the other originals ?
Have you examined the back side of the center section area for cracks, casting cracks are almost not visible but when lug nut torque is applied the cracks will open but you can't see that occurring because it's on the backside. Once crack(s) start, they get worse and worse. If cracked and getting worse would explain loss of lug nut torque. Just looking for reasons !
Yeah same wheel. It’s a refinished oem wheel. I thought about switching wheels and I need to I guess just to see. But at one point in time the rotor wouldn’t slide on over studs all that well because some of the studs were rubbing the sides of the bolt holes. So the issues started before the wheel was even in the mix. The weather isn’t cooperating now though. It’s 33* and raining and I think it’s supposed to be like this most of the week. Hopefully Friday I’ll get to take it for a spin to see what it does.
Is it cold in y’all’s neck of the woods?
01-23-2023, 07:34 PM
