Are "thick" gears noisy?
11-12-2005, 05:46 AM
#1
Are "thick" gears noisy? I want a 3.42 ratio on a series 2 carrier (stock rear end) so I called a sponsor and asked the price for a set of "thick" gears. Price is not an isue, they just have to be easy to adjust and not noisy. Just the best quality.
They answered that there are no "thick" gears available that do not whine, as they always make noise
Best solution is to buy a new carrier and install a stock 3.42 ratio.
Is it true? What is your experience with "thick" gears?
Thank you - Stefano
They answered that there are no "thick" gears available that do not whine, as they always make noise
Best solution is to buy a new carrier and install a stock 3.42 ratio.
Is it true? What is your experience with "thick" gears?
Thank you - Stefano
11-12-2005, 02:13 PM
#2
TECH Fanatic
Thick or thin gear sets make no more or less noise than the rest of them..... if set up incorrectly.
When set up correctly, any gear set, of any manufacturer will run quiet.
When set up correctly, any gear set, of any manufacturer will run quiet.
11-12-2005, 05:01 PM
#4
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chicane
Thick or thin gear sets make no more or less noise than the rest of them..... if set up incorrectly.
When set up correctly, any gear set, of any manufacturer will run quiet.
When set up correctly, any gear set, of any manufacturer will run quiet.
I can send pics of the pattern if you are an expert and can take a look at them I would very appreciative
11-12-2005, 06:20 PM
#5
TECH Fanatic
Originally Posted by TRex
........ if you are an expert and can take a look at them I would very appreciative.
What I would like to know is what gear manufacturer, ratio and type of oil you are using to start off with...... and then any pictures from there.
11-12-2005, 08:22 PM
#6
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The gears are Ford Motorsport, 4.30 ratio. I broke them in with Pennzoil 75w90, then changed to Mobil 1. I broke them in with two 20 min. sessions on the stands, then a few easy driving session. Took the cover off and re-checked the lash, still at .008.
Here are the pics
Thanks in advance for your help !
Here are the pics
Thanks in advance for your help !
11-13-2005, 04:04 AM
#7
TECH Fanatic
Well........ the gears are not crappy and the pattern is not centered.
Just from the pictures alone, I say the gear set is still set up too short (as it is shown slightly crossed up), and lash is too tight. Meaning, that it still needs about 0.002 to 0.003" more in depth (maybe even 0.004 to 0.005", but it depends on a few other things) and then I would throw 0.010" lash at it to see what it yields.
As for the carrier bearing preload, it normally takes a good 6 to 8 hard swings to seat the carrier (I use my Snappy 56oz dead blow). 0.010" is really a wag for a number..... Id think it takes somewhere in the 0.015 to 0.020" to get it close enough.
Pinion pre-load, when new should yield 35 rolling inch pounds of resistance. Used bearings, about 15.
As for lubricant (and also one reason for running 0.010" gear lash), I would use a straight 140 wt oil for any performance build. The lash needs to be open enough to let the higher viscosity oil in to provide the film thickness that is associated greater film pressure strength.
You are really looking for something like the pictures below, dont expect to. The first one would be what I consider a text book set up and the second is how I would set up a drag chassis that had some decent vehicle weight, launched hard and hook up well. Either way you look at it, the 'coast' side should be centered for both drive patterns shown.
Just from the pictures alone, I say the gear set is still set up too short (as it is shown slightly crossed up), and lash is too tight. Meaning, that it still needs about 0.002 to 0.003" more in depth (maybe even 0.004 to 0.005", but it depends on a few other things) and then I would throw 0.010" lash at it to see what it yields.
As for the carrier bearing preload, it normally takes a good 6 to 8 hard swings to seat the carrier (I use my Snappy 56oz dead blow). 0.010" is really a wag for a number..... Id think it takes somewhere in the 0.015 to 0.020" to get it close enough.
Pinion pre-load, when new should yield 35 rolling inch pounds of resistance. Used bearings, about 15.
As for lubricant (and also one reason for running 0.010" gear lash), I would use a straight 140 wt oil for any performance build. The lash needs to be open enough to let the higher viscosity oil in to provide the film thickness that is associated greater film pressure strength.
You are really looking for something like the pictures below, dont expect to. The first one would be what I consider a text book set up and the second is how I would set up a drag chassis that had some decent vehicle weight, launched hard and hook up well. Either way you look at it, the 'coast' side should be centered for both drive patterns shown.
Trending Topics
11-13-2005, 08:21 AM
#9
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chicane
Well........ the gears are not crappy and the pattern is not centered.
Just from the pictures alone, I say the gear set is still set up too short (as it is shown slightly crossed up), and lash is too tight. Meaning, that it still needs about 0.002 to 0.003" more in depth (maybe even 0.004 to 0.005", but it depends on a few other things) and then I would throw 0.010" lash at it to see what it yields.
As for the carrier bearing preload, it normally takes a good 6 to 8 hard swings to seat the carrier (I use my Snappy 56oz dead blow). 0.010" is really a wag for a number..... Id think it takes somewhere in the 0.015 to 0.020" to get it close enough.
Pinion pre-load, when new should yield 35 rolling inch pounds of resistance. Used bearings, about 15.
As for lubricant (and also one reason for running 0.010" gear lash), I would use a straight 140 wt oil for any performance build. The lash needs to be open enough to let the higher viscosity oil in to provide the film thickness that is associated greater film pressure strength.
You are really looking for something like the pictures below, dont expect to. The first one would be what I consider a text book set up and the second is how I would set up a drag chassis that had some decent vehicle weight, launched hard and hook up well. Either way you look at it, the 'coast' side should be centered for both drive patterns shown.
Just from the pictures alone, I say the gear set is still set up too short (as it is shown slightly crossed up), and lash is too tight. Meaning, that it still needs about 0.002 to 0.003" more in depth (maybe even 0.004 to 0.005", but it depends on a few other things) and then I would throw 0.010" lash at it to see what it yields.
As for the carrier bearing preload, it normally takes a good 6 to 8 hard swings to seat the carrier (I use my Snappy 56oz dead blow). 0.010" is really a wag for a number..... Id think it takes somewhere in the 0.015 to 0.020" to get it close enough.
Pinion pre-load, when new should yield 35 rolling inch pounds of resistance. Used bearings, about 15.
As for lubricant (and also one reason for running 0.010" gear lash), I would use a straight 140 wt oil for any performance build. The lash needs to be open enough to let the higher viscosity oil in to provide the film thickness that is associated greater film pressure strength.
You are really looking for something like the pictures below, dont expect to. The first one would be what I consider a text book set up and the second is how I would set up a drag chassis that had some decent vehicle weight, launched hard and hook up well. Either way you look at it, the 'coast' side should be centered for both drive patterns shown.
Also, by more in depth, do you mean add pinion shim ? Just want to clarify the direction to move it.
Thanks
11-13-2005, 03:39 PM
#10
TECH Fanatic
Originally Posted by tici
Is adjusting a Strange 3.42 ratio also so difficult?
This would be in a stock LS1 rear end.
Would you use a solid spacer for the pinion bearing preload or stick with the crush sleeve?
This would be in a stock LS1 rear end.
Would you use a solid spacer for the pinion bearing preload or stick with the crush sleeve?
Any rear loaded gear set will be pretty much the same, with the exception of the GM Corp 10.5", as it has a removeable pinion support and is adjusted there.
....and I would opt for the solid spacer, if I had the differential apart far enough for its assembly.
11-13-2005, 03:47 PM
#11
TECH Fanatic
Originally Posted by TRex
Thanks for the reply, I will try that !
Also, by more in depth, do you mean add pinion shim ? Just want to clarify the direction to move it.
Also, by more in depth, do you mean add pinion shim ? Just want to clarify the direction to move it.
Also, if and when you make adjustments with pinion shims, try and use only one shim..... if you can not, install the thinnest shim toward the pinion head first and the thicker one towards the bearing. Sometimes the thinner ones (dependant on actual thickness) can come apart when loaded in contact with the inner pinion race...... which if this were to happen, it would drastically change your pin depth and cause you all kinds of headaches if and when it acme apart.
11-13-2005, 06:32 PM
#12
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, thanks. I really appreciate your thoughts. No one else seemed to have any ideas, seemed like they thought the pattern was about as good as it could get, and I admit I was concerned about going deeper and getting too close to the root of the tooth.
At this point the car may be going into storage next weekend, so I might not get to fix it this season, may have to wait until spring. Would you mind if I contacted you back at that time if I have any questions, or just to say thanks, that did it !
At this point the car may be going into storage next weekend, so I might not get to fix it this season, may have to wait until spring. Would you mind if I contacted you back at that time if I have any questions, or just to say thanks, that did it !
11-14-2005, 12:37 AM
#14
I have a GM manual for setting up differential cases. It was given to me from a GM garage and it's what they use to teach their mechanics. So I guess it's correct.
They don't make any difference between the 5 or 2 cut gears, they just show different patterns and how make the corrections.
On another place I saw that the old 5 cut design needs a different contact pattern than the 2 cut.
So now... what is what? I think the late (LT1 - LS1) gear design is a 2 cut. Does it make a difference?
I think the 5 cut needs a straight centered line from heel to toe. The 2 cut design needs a diagonal line from bottom toe to top land.
(I know... it sounds complicated...)
They don't make any difference between the 5 or 2 cut gears, they just show different patterns and how make the corrections.
On another place I saw that the old 5 cut design needs a different contact pattern than the 2 cut.
So now... what is what? I think the late (LT1 - LS1) gear design is a 2 cut. Does it make a difference?
I think the 5 cut needs a straight centered line from heel to toe. The 2 cut design needs a diagonal line from bottom toe to top land.
(I know... it sounds complicated...)
11-18-2005, 07:17 PM
#15
11 Second Club
iTrader: (27)
Join Date: May 2002
Location: East Palestine, OH - USA
Posts: 2,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chicane
Thick or thin gear sets make no more or less noise than the rest of them..... if set up incorrectly.
When set up correctly, any gear set, of any manufacturer will run quiet.
When set up correctly, any gear set, of any manufacturer will run quiet.
For gear setup help check these:
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/fscu/axletech/
http://www.keliente.com/gears.htm
If you are unsure about doing it yourself, go to a reputable 4x4 shop. They do gears more than any other performance shop, from what I've seen anyway.
11-19-2005, 12:14 PM
#16
The actual problem is to find a seller.
It's cheaper if I organize the shipping from here. I can send DHL to pick up the parts, I only need weight and dimansion of the box to have a shipping quote.
I already asked a couple of vendors and nobody is able to give me those informations.
At the same time they can figure out a price if they ship it themselves...
$85 USPS and $200 for UPS. THis for ring + pinion + install kit (!)
It costed me $800 for a 370 lbs crate from South Carolina to Zurich. This was with DHL. So I guess someone is trying to make some additional cash...!
It's cheaper if I organize the shipping from here. I can send DHL to pick up the parts, I only need weight and dimansion of the box to have a shipping quote.
I already asked a couple of vendors and nobody is able to give me those informations.
At the same time they can figure out a price if they ship it themselves...
$85 USPS and $200 for UPS. THis for ring + pinion + install kit (!)
It costed me $800 for a 370 lbs crate from South Carolina to Zurich. This was with DHL. So I guess someone is trying to make some additional cash...!