5th gen vs 4th gen angst...
06-08-2009, 05:55 PM
#21
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After reading all of this I can certainly agree with history repeating itself and I feel my young self as a "4th gen guy".
However, I can remember being 12 when the '98 Camaros came out with the LS1 and I just loved those cars. I had almost every car mag on the LS1 F-bodies and would fail tests because of it. I'd always love how the writers would go off on how great the LS1 was. So fast foward 10-11 years...I'm in the military (one of John Kerry's dumbasses who can't handle school
), and while on R&R I get to drive my uncle's '99 LS1 SS in '08. Drove it and finally get that crazyness feeling those mag writers got years ago. Then I bought it in '09.
Bottom line, I like 4th gens better than the 5th gen because I grew up with 4th gens and I'm still growing.
However, I can remember being 12 when the '98 Camaros came out with the LS1 and I just loved those cars. I had almost every car mag on the LS1 F-bodies and would fail tests because of it. I'd always love how the writers would go off on how great the LS1 was. So fast foward 10-11 years...I'm in the military (one of John Kerry's dumbasses who can't handle school
), and while on R&R I get to drive my uncle's '99 LS1 SS in '08. Drove it and finally get that crazyness feeling those mag writers got years ago. Then I bought it in '09.Bottom line, I like 4th gens better than the 5th gen because I grew up with 4th gens and I'm still growing.
06-08-2009, 06:15 PM
#22
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I am 41 and have a 4th gen. I have had it for 10 years. It's a great car and I still enjoy it. And it looks as good as it did when I bought it. I also like the 5th gen other than the weight and the fact that you can't see out of it from inside. The weight is a big negative to me. I am someone who could afford one if they really wanted it. It's a nice car but performance wise I just can't see it simply because it weighs too much. This works against it big time in straight line performance as well as corner carving. More weight = more power necessary for straight line performance, there is no way around that fact. It's simple physics. And there really is no way to overcome the weight for corner carving either. No matter what you do, it would simply handle better and feel more agile if it were 5 - 700 lbs lighter. They had several years to develop it. With today's materials, design software, and building options they simply could have done a better job in this area.
The bottom line is, they designed it for the masses, most of which will never know how much the car weighs or what it will really run in the 1/4 mile. They will never take it to the drag strip or an auto X. We as enthusiasts were not the target customer base for this vehicle because we do not buy the majority of them. It is what it is, as they say. It's still a nice car with potential.
The bottom line is, they designed it for the masses, most of which will never know how much the car weighs or what it will really run in the 1/4 mile. They will never take it to the drag strip or an auto X. We as enthusiasts were not the target customer base for this vehicle because we do not buy the majority of them. It is what it is, as they say. It's still a nice car with potential.
06-08-2009, 08:51 PM
#23
Whats the average age of a 4th gen owner? From what I have seen, it's a lot younger now then it was 7-10 years ago when they were still making 4th gens, thats just natural. Point is a lot of the 4th gen guys I knew from back then have jumped ship and moved on to other cars, a lot have Vettes now. A good bit of those who still have them now and have had them since new or near it will start to move over to 5th gens/Vettes or what ever else due to what ever circumstance. So just like fox bodies what'll you have is either your die hard 4th gen guys, guys building drag cars or a bunch of kids who wanted some thing fast/cheap. Unfortuantley your fast/cheap guys now make up a good bit of the modern internet message board crowd and thats where the 5th gen hating comes from. It's new and their cars aren't so they attack it on what ever ground then can because for the price difference between the 4th and 5th gen they can make their $5K 99 Z28 a 10 second car. Kinda like the fox body mentality when the LS1 4th gen cars were new. But when ever theycan afford it they'll but a 5th gen or Vette. I have seen it time again, 3rd gen Vs Lt1, Lt1 Vs LS1, history is repeating
06-08-2009, 09:04 PM
#24
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I'm ancient and grew up owning fbodies. My first was a '68 Firebird. They all have ALWAYS been easy to work on, come with the option to install the hardest hitting engines and drivetrains GM (and the aftermarket) had to offer, and the appeal of being as American as apple pie..
That said, I think that comparing our 4th Gens to the 5th Gens is only natural. Yes they are "apples and oranges".. but they are both "fbodies". I didn't really like the interior design, all the "creature comfort" crap, all the electronic gadgets and gizmos that always seem to take a **** on you when you need them to work the most, and -least of all- the hype surrounding the new Camaros. But then, I can remember the same thing happening when the LT1 and LS1 Camaros came out too. And we all managed to bypass the skip shift and torque control crap on our 4th Gens.
I get a chance to play with the new Camaros every time I go to the dealership to pick up cars for repair. Every time I see these things, they kinda grow on me more. I'm really sad that GM is on the rocks and that we as Americans haven't done more to support a company that has supported our love of the automotive sports the way GM has.
The final straw was today when I was in the shop working on a tank and fender paint set for a chopper when guess what pulled up? A brand new 2SS!! Guess what I get to work on this weekend? YES! There IS a God! My wife's gonna be pissed at me, but I'm probably going to sell the house and buy a Hennessy Camaro..well ...maybe not.
BTW..thats my poor Z28 with the STILL shelled out rear end sitting behind the Jeep. Building a new one for her though.
That said, I think that comparing our 4th Gens to the 5th Gens is only natural. Yes they are "apples and oranges".. but they are both "fbodies". I didn't really like the interior design, all the "creature comfort" crap, all the electronic gadgets and gizmos that always seem to take a **** on you when you need them to work the most, and -least of all- the hype surrounding the new Camaros. But then, I can remember the same thing happening when the LT1 and LS1 Camaros came out too. And we all managed to bypass the skip shift and torque control crap on our 4th Gens.
I get a chance to play with the new Camaros every time I go to the dealership to pick up cars for repair. Every time I see these things, they kinda grow on me more. I'm really sad that GM is on the rocks and that we as Americans haven't done more to support a company that has supported our love of the automotive sports the way GM has.
The final straw was today when I was in the shop working on a tank and fender paint set for a chopper when guess what pulled up? A brand new 2SS!! Guess what I get to work on this weekend? YES! There IS a God! My wife's gonna be pissed at me, but I'm probably going to sell the house and buy a Hennessy Camaro..well ...maybe not.
BTW..thats my poor Z28 with the STILL shelled out rear end sitting behind the Jeep. Building a new one for her though.
06-08-2009, 10:08 PM
#25
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You guys will have a hard time dealing with a camaro that won't give the vette a run for it's money. I had a new 02' SS and didn't fear a vette unless it was 02' z06.... the new camaro is hella heavy, but really safe. And probably very difficult to work on. That's why I own... well...you know.
06-08-2009, 10:12 PM
#26
I supposed I'm kind of a hard core 4th gen guy. I will be on the hunt for my third after I buy a house in the next few months. I was also one of those kids who picked up a "half decent IROC" for 5 grand a decade ago. Odd how times change.
I also like the 5th gen a lot. I like it for what it is, though. The reason I am getting a 4th gen before a 5th gen is I simply want that raw car. People complain that they rattle and are cheap inside. I love it! It's a killer drivetrain wrapped in a budget shell. Plus, you just can't beat t-tops.
I will buy a 5th gen, but it won't be torn apart. It will be a nice cruiser with some minor mods. They are too heavy and "safety'd" up to invest my money into to go real fast, especially when I can do it, IMO, better with a 4th gen. This is why I sold my GTO. It was great for what it was, a touring car, but they are too heavy, under-suspended and you can't get decent tires on the rear.
All in all, they are all Camaros, and they're all sweet!
I also like the 5th gen a lot. I like it for what it is, though. The reason I am getting a 4th gen before a 5th gen is I simply want that raw car. People complain that they rattle and are cheap inside. I love it! It's a killer drivetrain wrapped in a budget shell. Plus, you just can't beat t-tops.
I will buy a 5th gen, but it won't be torn apart. It will be a nice cruiser with some minor mods. They are too heavy and "safety'd" up to invest my money into to go real fast, especially when I can do it, IMO, better with a 4th gen. This is why I sold my GTO. It was great for what it was, a touring car, but they are too heavy, under-suspended and you can't get decent tires on the rear.
All in all, they are all Camaros, and they're all sweet!
06-08-2009, 10:18 PM
#27
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I agree and while I dont much care for the new Camaro I dont hate it. However Im not jealous and can buy a new one if truly interested but the design will never grow on me enough to want one. I would pay a bit more for the GT500 and its engine and while never a Dodge fan I think the Challenger design blows away the new Camaro in looks. For the price of the new camaro I would buy a used C6 or GT500, again Im not a jealous 4TH gen Owner just someone who was hoping to like the new car more and dont.
06-08-2009, 10:37 PM
#28
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The 5.4L in the GT500 is as heavy as the new camaro. Do yourself a favor, purchase a base GT, port the heads, manley rods, CP pistons, kellogg/cobra crank and turbo or centri-sc. Near 50/50 weight distribution and 700whp capable on pump gas. The GT500 is a pig.
06-08-2009, 11:09 PM
#29
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As I remember, the 4th Gens where underpowered pigs when they were introduced as well. Next year's 5th Gen should have a lot of improvements on this year's. With any luck, they'll delete all the anchor weight bull$hit that we don't need. If GM can hold it's own, I understand we might get a Z28 and a 'vert. Maybe we'll even see an LS7 option since the Vettes went to an LS9.
Soon enough we're going to see someone with enough money and ***** to buy a 2SS, gut it, and rebuild it the way it shoulda come off the assembly line to begin with. Now THAT will be a Camaro! And it WILL hang with an LS9 Vette or any Stang. If some of our 4th Gens can do it, a 5th Gen can definately be made to do it.
BTW Rubrignitz, things are only hard to work on only when we don't understand how they work to begin with.
And I really agree with Demonspeed too. I also dig my 4th Gen and my old Harleys because when put the **** to them, I'm not feeling bad because I'm tearing up a $50k 2SS. Parts are still plentiful, and the aftermarket is the wind in our sails.
Jealous of the 5th Gen owners? No. Envious? Hell YEAH! lol
Soon enough we're going to see someone with enough money and ***** to buy a 2SS, gut it, and rebuild it the way it shoulda come off the assembly line to begin with. Now THAT will be a Camaro! And it WILL hang with an LS9 Vette or any Stang. If some of our 4th Gens can do it, a 5th Gen can definately be made to do it.
BTW Rubrignitz, things are only hard to work on only when we don't understand how they work to begin with.
And I really agree with Demonspeed too. I also dig my 4th Gen and my old Harleys because when put the **** to them, I'm not feeling bad because I'm tearing up a $50k 2SS. Parts are still plentiful, and the aftermarket is the wind in our sails.
Jealous of the 5th Gen owners? No. Envious? Hell YEAH! lol
06-09-2009, 12:56 AM
#31
As I remember, the 4th Gens where underpowered pigs when they were introduced as well. Next year's 5th Gen should have a lot of improvements on this year's. With any luck, they'll delete all the anchor weight bull$hit that we don't need. If GM can hold it's own, I understand we might get a Z28 and a 'vert. Maybe we'll even see an LS7 option since the Vettes went to an LS9.
Soon enough we're going to see someone with enough money and ***** to buy a 2SS, gut it, and rebuild it the way it shoulda come off the assembly line to begin with. Now THAT will be a Camaro! And it WILL hang with an LS9 Vette or any Stang. If some of our 4th Gens can do it, a 5th Gen can definately be made to do it.
BTW Rubrignitz, things are only hard to work on only when we don't understand how they work to begin with.
And I really agree with Demonspeed too. I also dig my 4th Gen and my old Harleys because when put the **** to them, I'm not feeling bad because I'm tearing up a $50k 2SS. Parts are still plentiful, and the aftermarket is the wind in our sails.
Jealous of the 5th Gen owners? No. Envious? Hell YEAH! lol
Soon enough we're going to see someone with enough money and ***** to buy a 2SS, gut it, and rebuild it the way it shoulda come off the assembly line to begin with. Now THAT will be a Camaro! And it WILL hang with an LS9 Vette or any Stang. If some of our 4th Gens can do it, a 5th Gen can definately be made to do it.
BTW Rubrignitz, things are only hard to work on only when we don't understand how they work to begin with.
And I really agree with Demonspeed too. I also dig my 4th Gen and my old Harleys because when put the **** to them, I'm not feeling bad because I'm tearing up a $50k 2SS. Parts are still plentiful, and the aftermarket is the wind in our sails.
Jealous of the 5th Gen owners? No. Envious? Hell YEAH! lol
i have said that over and over.. everyone merely pushes it to the side like it doesnt matter..
06-09-2009, 06:53 AM
#32
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Because most of them either were not around for it or just didn't hear much about it. The LT1 vs LS1 is a much more recent debate that did have the internet to help spread the fireworks. Just imagine how the LT1 guys are feeling with a LS3 Camaro on the streets
06-09-2009, 03:43 PM
#33
A lot of people here are too young to have been car enthusiasts back in 1992. There was also no internet and hence no internet car forums back then. So it actually makes sense that a lot of people act as if it doesn't matter.
Because most of them either were not around for it or just didn't hear much about it. The LT1 vs LS1 is a much more recent debate that did have the internet to help spread the fireworks. Just imagine how the LT1 guys are feeling with a LS3 Camaro on the streets
Because most of them either were not around for it or just didn't hear much about it. The LT1 vs LS1 is a much more recent debate that did have the internet to help spread the fireworks. Just imagine how the LT1 guys are feeling with a LS3 Camaro on the streets
i never thought about the poor lt1 guys.. although, they arent getting compared as much either...
06-09-2009, 09:57 PM
#34
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So I'm wet sanding a... shhh, don't tell anyone... Toyota for some paint and this same dude shows up with ANOTHER 5th Gen. This time it's a 6 cylinder RS that is packing almost as much HP as my 2000 Z28 came with new. DOAH! I guess I don't get to work on this one. Although I haven't gotten to put the **** to any of these 5th Gens yet, everyone I know that has purchased one is thrilled to death with them. I'm not really sure if that is only because the cars are new to thier owners or maybe they just don't know any better. Well, that 2SS only has me by 20 or so HP without my blower. He says he put some poor ricer with a turbo and nitrous in a hurt locker. We'll see what a new 2SS can do against my 4th Gen when I get the rear end issue handled with my Z. I am, however, impressed with the 5th Gen independent rear suspension.
06-09-2009, 10:08 PM
#35
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3rd gen's rule but thats just my opinion and as far as the bash on the 2010 camaro the only thing about it i dont like is would have like to see the taillights three wide instead of just two but i love it no matter what
06-10-2009, 02:06 PM
#37
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The new Camaro is being ragged on so hard for exactly the opposite reasons. This car has been in development for half a decade, and look at it. It can't produce numbers better than 11 year old 4th gens. It's a big, fat, heavy pig. It has 100 horsepower more than LS1 cars, yet it runs door to door with them. That's really sad IMO, and it does it at a significantly higher cost with less fuel efficiency. Yes, it's a more comfortable car and probably handles a little better, but most users of this site care about quarter mile numbers, and this car fails miserably at that. With all that extra power and all the time spent in development - every drivetrain part of this car has a huge advantage over the parts in the 4th gen - it can't outperform it! The chassis on this car is just not good for going fast, and we have to accept it.
The LT1 vs. LS1 was a totally different situation. LT1 people were originally hating on LS1 people but the numbers proved them wrong. Any bickering after that was LT1 guys being butthurt. This situation was the exact opposite. Everyone was excited for the 5th gens, but once the numbers started coming out, people were getting disappointed. Now we have a website full of people shocked that a car making 100 horsepower more using technology over a decade newer can't beat an old 4th gen down the 1/4 mile strip. I came in really optimistic with this car. Now I feel you're better off spending the extra $5,000 and buying a damn Corvette. The Corvette will kick the crap out of a 5th gen in every way possible.
Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 06-10-2009 at 02:15 PM.
06-10-2009, 02:58 PM
#38
I feel very different. People were skeptical of the LS1 at first, but look at the facts. The LS1 is lighter, makes a lot more power, is more fuel efficient, easier to work on and more reliable (no opti-spark). The LS1 outperforms the LT1 in every way.
The new Camaro is being ragged on so hard for exactly the opposite reasons. This car has been in development for half a decade, and look at it. It can't produce numbers better than 11 year old 4th gens. It's a big, fat, heavy pig. It has 100 horsepower more than LS1 cars, yet it runs door to door with them. That's really sad IMO, and it does it at a significantly higher cost with less fuel efficiency. Yes, it's a more comfortable car and probably handles a little better, but most users of this site care about quarter mile numbers, and this car fails miserably at that. With all that extra power and all the time spent in development - every drivetrain part of this car has a huge advantage over the parts in the 4th gen - it can't outperform it! The chassis on this car is just not good for going fast, and we have to accept it.
The LT1 vs. LS1 was a totally different situation. LT1 people were originally hating on LS1 people but the numbers proved them wrong. Any bickering after that was LT1 guys being butthurt. This situation was the exact opposite. Everyone was excited for the 5th gens, but once the numbers started coming out, people were getting disappointed. Now we have a website full of people shocked that a car making 100 horsepower more using technology over a decade newer can't beat an old 4th gen down the 1/4 mile strip. I came in really optimistic with this car. Now I feel you're better off spending the extra $5,000 and buying a damn Corvette. The Corvette will kick the crap out of a 5th gen in every way possible.
The new Camaro is being ragged on so hard for exactly the opposite reasons. This car has been in development for half a decade, and look at it. It can't produce numbers better than 11 year old 4th gens. It's a big, fat, heavy pig. It has 100 horsepower more than LS1 cars, yet it runs door to door with them. That's really sad IMO, and it does it at a significantly higher cost with less fuel efficiency. Yes, it's a more comfortable car and probably handles a little better, but most users of this site care about quarter mile numbers, and this car fails miserably at that. With all that extra power and all the time spent in development - every drivetrain part of this car has a huge advantage over the parts in the 4th gen - it can't outperform it! The chassis on this car is just not good for going fast, and we have to accept it.
The LT1 vs. LS1 was a totally different situation. LT1 people were originally hating on LS1 people but the numbers proved them wrong. Any bickering after that was LT1 guys being butthurt. This situation was the exact opposite. Everyone was excited for the 5th gens, but once the numbers started coming out, people were getting disappointed. Now we have a website full of people shocked that a car making 100 horsepower more using technology over a decade newer can't beat an old 4th gen down the 1/4 mile strip. I came in really optimistic with this car. Now I feel you're better off spending the extra $5,000 and buying a damn Corvette. The Corvette will kick the crap out of a 5th gen in every way possible.
significantly higher cost? its around 2k more than a new fbody was, but look at the extra features you get..
this surprises you??? my god, think a little.. the corvette is SUPPOSED to kick the crap out of it... and many other cars for that matter... why in gods name would you build a car to compete with your top dog? that would be dumb... they arent trying to compete with ANYTHING other than the mustang gt challenger charger etc etc etc... they did that, and did it well..
06-10-2009, 03:19 PM
#39
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I dont like the 5th gen because I hate the styling and I hate how heavy it is. I am not a big fan of its "refinement".
It has absolutely nothing to do with being broke, being young, or secretly harboring some jealous desire to own one.
I like how it just cant be that someone doesnt care for something... there always has to be some sort of psychological problem/issue. Or they are just played off as being "young" or "broke".
Nick
It has absolutely nothing to do with being broke, being young, or secretly harboring some jealous desire to own one.
I like how it just cant be that someone doesnt care for something... there always has to be some sort of psychological problem/issue. Or they are just played off as being "young" or "broke".
Nick
