GM will keep the Camaro affordable
02-13-2008, 05:11 PM
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Do all the research into NUMMI you want. Toyota already talked about moving the Tacoma production(40% of that plants production) to Mexico and their NON-UNION Texas plant. They are NOT a union company. GM is a UAW company, the NUMMI plant was a GM plant that Toyota moved in to. Toyota IS NOT A UNION COMPANY. They just work alongside GM in THEIR UAW plant. If Toyota is UAW why arent any of their US assembled Camrys or Tundras on there? Everything that GM does in the US is union, period. Including GM's joint venture plant with Toyota. The only thing that Toyota is involved in that is union is GM's plant, which they consider to be too expensive and have already talked about getting out of.
02-13-2008, 05:14 PM
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That would be called a contract, not union busting. If GM hired new workers while the UAW was on their strike(which very well could have been planned by both sides to reduce inventory), that would be union busting.
BTW- I am a proud and active union member. I am aware of how unions operate, both positive and negative.
BTW- I am a proud and active union member. I am aware of how unions operate, both positive and negative.
02-13-2008, 05:23 PM
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02-13-2008, 06:18 PM
#64
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Think of it this way....you can get a new Camaro, armed with an L76 and run close to what the BEST of the old F-bodys could do, all the while having much improved handling and an interior that doesn't hurt you, all for $25K. That doesn't sound like a bad thing to me at all.
It's not about being better than the 10 year old LS1 4th gens, its about being better than the current competition. And by "competition" I don't mean just the Challenger and Mustang, I mean every performance car in its price range.
A car that runs borderline 13/12's for 25K that doesn't suck at everything else and can get BETTER gas mileage than the old '02's because of DOD and new tech? I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like a recipe for a KILLER deal of a car, one that would sell in the quantities that the old RS model used to, one that would beat the Mustang GT up and still be around the same price.
Also, the L76 might be heavier than the LS1, but it makes more torque to make up for it in stock form.
While I think the L76 will be offered in the 5th gen, I still rather see a lighter engine for the base V8. An AL. V8 with DOD that can run on 87 octane.
If you guys are really complaining about how it's going to handle with that extra 100lbs up front, just unbolt the rear seats, put em in the trunk with some sort of tie-down, and put a full size spare out back to even out the weight. Look at that, balance is restored.
Its not just 100lbs over the front end thats bad, but an extra 100lbs total. And LMAO... You don't just swap weight to the back and "restore balance"... It also matters how close the weight is to the center of the chassis, and how low to the ground it is.
If I'm buying a brand new performance car, I don't want to have to mod it or gut it to keep up with cars in its class, thats all I'm getting at.
"But it'll be like 30lbs heavier! WAHHH!" Go on a diet fatty...
or just buy the LS3 or a Corvette....
or just buy the LS3 or a Corvette....
Get a better job.
If GM is going to take another shot at this, they have to go all or nothing, they cannot hold back on their last try.
02-13-2008, 06:24 PM
#65
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The TOP LEVEL Camaro is supposed to be a high performance vehicle.
The car was originally designed to be sporty to drive, jam-packed with options, and to look DAMN good, all while having an easy to afford pricetag.
...But, you might notice, as I've insisted that ya'll check up on your history a little bit, so I'll give you a hint....the 327/350 version of the Original Camaro outsold all other models, including the I6 economy model.
The car was originally designed to be sporty to drive, jam-packed with options, and to look DAMN good, all while having an easy to afford pricetag.
...But, you might notice, as I've insisted that ya'll check up on your history a little bit, so I'll give you a hint....the 327/350 version of the Original Camaro outsold all other models, including the I6 economy model.
Also, I guess you forgot that almost every Corvette V8 and C-series V8 in HISTORY could swap out parts with each other.... Corvettes didn't always have aluminum blocks....I know that most of you probably knew that one, but there are still some morons on here who still try to make themselves believe the L76 isn't a direct offspring of the LS1 and is merely a truck motor. I guess that makes the V10 in the Ram SRT-10 a truck motor now right? lol.
Never mind the fact that the L76 is still a 6.0L making 364hp, just WAITING to be tuned. I bet with a good pair of LTs, intake, and a dyno tune, it could be making power levels like the LS3 for much less cash....unless you buy like $4000 dollar headers or some ****. But people around here aren't interested in modding now are they....
Again you are taking the drag racers approach to this. I love power as much as the next guy, but in todays market people want good handling, balanced cars. GM needs to appeal to more than the baby boomers...
02-13-2008, 07:49 PM
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The cost cuts GM, Ford, and Chrysler are trying to accomplish with the buyouts should have been done a long time ago. Union labor is the reason the USA is falling fast from the top of the food chain. Corporations leave, build stuff overseas, cause its cheaper. Plain and simple.
Japanese auto maker have a very different approach to their employees benifits, including pension plans. Google "GM Pension Plan" and read some. Here is an interesting quote from an article written in 2005
Then from another 2004 article
This has gotten worse for GM in the years since these articles, not better, and Ford and Chrysler are in the same boat.
Can you imagine if they spelled this out on the invoice for the car.
msrp $$$$$$
tax $$$$$$
pay for our retired employees $$$$$
How would people feel when they see that cost almost 10 times as much as a Japanese car??? If people saw that on the sticker, maybe things would be different. Just like when you tell a gas customer who says "why is gas so expensive" and you show the the amount of that price that is purely tax. It might give the US consumer a little different outlook on the situation. I know it makes me absolutely sick to my stomach to hear about union workers going on strike. That has destroyed the American economy, but hopefully not beyond repairable. As sad as it would be, I wont be suprised if/when GM closes its doors forever...
Japanese auto maker have a very different approach to their employees benifits, including pension plans. Google "GM Pension Plan" and read some. Here is an interesting quote from an article written in 2005
The carmaker is saddled with a $1,600-per-vehicle handicap in so-called legacy costs, mostly retiree health and pension benefits...
...Normally a company in such straits contracts until it reaches equilibrium. But for GM, shrinkage is not much of an option. Because of its union agreements, the auto maker can't close plants or lay off workers without paying a stiff penalty, no matter how far its sales or profits fall
...Normally a company in such straits contracts until it reaches equilibrium. But for GM, shrinkage is not much of an option. Because of its union agreements, the auto maker can't close plants or lay off workers without paying a stiff penalty, no matter how far its sales or profits fall
Nowhere are pension obligations a greater competitive millstone than in Detroit. The U.S. carmakers today have some of the biggest pension obligations and pool of retirees anywhere. By contrast, their Japanese competition only started U.S. manufacturing in the late 1980s, and have far lower costs. General Motors has 514,120 participants in its hourly-rate employee pension plan, all but 142,617 of whom are retired. Pension and health-care costs for those retirees added up to about $6.2 billion in 2003, or roughly $1,784 per vehicle according to Morgan Stanley (MWD ). Compare that to Toyota's U.S. (TM ) plan, which had only 9,557 participants, just two of whom were retired as of Toyota's latest Internal Revenue Service filing covering 2001. Toyota's pension cost is estimated at something less than $200 per vehicle.
The impact on profits is dramatic. Excluding gains from its finance arm, GM earned $144 per vehicle in the U.S. in 2003. GM's margins are now 0.5%, among the worst in the industry. But without the burden of pension and retiree health-care costs, the auto makers' global margins would be 5.5%, according to Morgan Stanley. That's not great, but a lot closer to Asian carmakers like Honda Motor Corp., which earns 7.5% on its global sales.
The impact on profits is dramatic. Excluding gains from its finance arm, GM earned $144 per vehicle in the U.S. in 2003. GM's margins are now 0.5%, among the worst in the industry. But without the burden of pension and retiree health-care costs, the auto makers' global margins would be 5.5%, according to Morgan Stanley. That's not great, but a lot closer to Asian carmakers like Honda Motor Corp., which earns 7.5% on its global sales.
Can you imagine if they spelled this out on the invoice for the car.
msrp $$$$$$
tax $$$$$$
pay for our retired employees $$$$$
How would people feel when they see that cost almost 10 times as much as a Japanese car??? If people saw that on the sticker, maybe things would be different. Just like when you tell a gas customer who says "why is gas so expensive" and you show the the amount of that price that is purely tax. It might give the US consumer a little different outlook on the situation. I know it makes me absolutely sick to my stomach to hear about union workers going on strike. That has destroyed the American economy, but hopefully not beyond repairable. As sad as it would be, I wont be suprised if/when GM closes its doors forever...
02-13-2008, 08:01 PM
#68
Yea Toyota is not union. The NUMMI plant was the startup plant for Toyota to get it's foot in the door so a joint venture between GM and Toyota was started. EVERY plant that is ONLY Toyota products is non-union. Coming from the TMMTX plant I know this as a fact 
William
William
02-13-2008, 08:04 PM
#69
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I dont really care what you concider UAW vs. Non UAW. Ive talked with Toyota workers in Detroit and they changed my assumption of how shitty it must be working for a Jap. company.
02-13-2008, 08:12 PM
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Yeah, people are proud Americans too but they can also have no problem telling other Americans to screw off. Someone that can so easily take the side of companies that layoff and find cheaper labor here or elsewhere while paying the ceo's absurd amouts of money while the company is tanking isnt thinking fairly. If youre such a proud union member surely you would understand why the cost are so high.
02-13-2008, 08:14 PM
#71
I think the 05-06 GTO with 400hp are looking better & better every day
..I can say one thing..Either GM is laughing their *** off by how far off everyone is on the powerplant(s) or they have their tail between their legs..I say it's the latter..Like I said all along, the only Camaro that is going to be affordable in 2010 is the 6 cyl..The dealer markup is going to be insane on the V-8's..I hope you all have your pennies saved.
..I can say one thing..Either GM is laughing their *** off by how far off everyone is on the powerplant(s) or they have their tail between their legs..I say it's the latter..Like I said all along, the only Camaro that is going to be affordable in 2010 is the 6 cyl..The dealer markup is going to be insane on the V-8's..I hope you all have your pennies saved.
02-13-2008, 08:22 PM
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The cost cuts GM, Ford, and Chrysler are trying to accomplish with the buyouts should have been done a long time ago. Union labor is the reason the USA is falling fast from the top of the food chain. Corporations leave, build stuff overseas, cause its cheaper. Plain and simple.
Japanese auto maker have a very different approach to their employees benifits, including pension plans. Google "GM Pension Plan" and read some. Here is an interesting quote from an article written in 2005
This has gotten worse for GM in the years since these articles, not better, and Ford and Chrysler are in the same boat.
Can you imagine if they spelled this out on the invoice for the car.
msrp $$$$$$
tax $$$$$$
pay for our retired employees $$$$$
How would people feel when they see that cost almost 10 times as much as a Japanese car??? If people saw that on the sticker, maybe things would be different. Just like when you tell a gas customer who says "why is gas so expensive" and you show the the amount of that price that is purely tax. It might give the US consumer a little different outlook on the situation. I know it makes me absolutely sick to my stomach to hear about union workers going on strike. That has destroyed the American economy, but hopefully not beyond repairable. As sad as it would be, I wont be suprised if/when GM closes its doors forever...
Japanese auto maker have a very different approach to their employees benifits, including pension plans. Google "GM Pension Plan" and read some. Here is an interesting quote from an article written in 2005
This has gotten worse for GM in the years since these articles, not better, and Ford and Chrysler are in the same boat.
Can you imagine if they spelled this out on the invoice for the car.
msrp $$$$$$
tax $$$$$$
pay for our retired employees $$$$$
How would people feel when they see that cost almost 10 times as much as a Japanese car??? If people saw that on the sticker, maybe things would be different. Just like when you tell a gas customer who says "why is gas so expensive" and you show the the amount of that price that is purely tax. It might give the US consumer a little different outlook on the situation. I know it makes me absolutely sick to my stomach to hear about union workers going on strike. That has destroyed the American economy, but hopefully not beyond repairable. As sad as it would be, I wont be suprised if/when GM closes its doors forever...
What is your problem?? Oh yes the audasity of these union workers demanding fair pay, Health insurance for there families,retirment plans for their 30 years of service, Oh yes Damn those unions they are destoying thos country. Not **** poor management on GMs behalf, Not the fact that Health Care and drug companies up there pricies to show profit on wall street.
Blame Unions all you want the fact is youre letting corperate America off the hook and they are whats destroying this industry with their greed and utter contempt for the people of this country union or non union, high school educated or college educated.
02-13-2008, 08:39 PM
#73
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lol yea pay guys $30 an hour so they can go live in their $750k+ homes that a bunch of mexicans built and mow the lawns on for $2 or $3 an hour. Thank god for union workers ...
Now thats not to say that paying the CEOs in 7 figure plus salaries is right either, but thats just another problem.
I can't see how ANYONE can say that $28 an hour PLUS full benifits is fair pay for semi-skilled labor. Thats like saying Tom Brady's 6 year $60MILLION contract is "fair pay" for a guy to go out and PLAY A GAME!!!
...Now thats not to say that paying the CEOs in 7 figure plus salaries is right either, but thats just another problem.
I can't see how ANYONE can say that $28 an hour PLUS full benifits is fair pay for semi-skilled labor. Thats like saying Tom Brady's 6 year $60MILLION contract is "fair pay" for a guy to go out and PLAY A GAME!!!
02-13-2008, 09:11 PM
#74
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lol yea pay guys $30 an hour so they can go live in their $750k+ homes
02-13-2008, 09:14 PM
#75
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As far as the execs making all the money, they have the most weight on their shoulders. Even with the buyouts and such GM is still treating their employees waayy better than Toyota and giving them better benefits. That is the reason that Toyota wants out of the GM joint venture plant- it costs too much. And still even with the cuts GM is going to be spending way more on their employees than Toyota.
I also love how you are still talking layoffs when it was never even mentioned. The chicken little attitude wont work your whole life.
GM is in business to make money. If you do not want corporations to make money and be more profitable maybe you should look into a communist country or possibly just go off the grid and live in a cave. GM making money and being profitable provides jobs for its employees and helps the US economy as well as providing a source of income for their shareholders.
02-13-2008, 09:59 PM
#76
Back to the car ... this is a great post:
4th gen FB's and T/A's still garner compliments all the time. Don't expect the standard V8 to get better mileage or better performance. Why? Weight. I bet the new car is going to weigh 3700-3800 lbs.
Sticker on fully optioned WS6's was pushing 35k by 2002. You will not see a V8 5th gen for under 30k, period.
1) 4th gens "sucking at everything else" isn't entirely true. Maybe to you they were good for nothing more than 1/4 mile runs, but not all of us need to have an autoX ready suspension and brakes to find a car fun to drive. They were decent all-around performers for their day, and for those not content with their stock performance, they were easily modded to whatever your desire. And beleive it or not, some of us actually liked the styling of the 4th gens. WOW. The SHOCK! Yes, I actually said it, I think the 4th gen cars were and still are cool; to look at and to drive. Quick, somebody stone me.
2) I don't know how you guys think that any V8 Camaro is going to be $25k. You want a car with a GTO-like or better interior, suspension & brakes that keep up with the Vette (you know, a car that "doesn't suck at everything else" 
), and a V8. But you want it all at the same price as a fully optioned Z28 was in 1998? GM is still a busniess that needs to make a profit.
), and a V8. But you want it all at the same price as a fully optioned Z28 was in 1998? GM is still a busniess that needs to make a profit.
02-13-2008, 10:12 PM
#77
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...blah blah, just stop your thread hijacking and lets get back on topic
02-13-2008, 10:24 PM
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Back to the car ... this is a great post:
4th gen FB's and T/A's still garner compliments all the time. Don't expect the standard V8 to get better mileage or better performance. Why? Weight. I bet the new car is going to weigh 3700-3800 lbs.
Sticker on fully optioned WS6's was pushing 35k by 2002. You will not see a V8 5th gen for under 30k, period.
4th gen FB's and T/A's still garner compliments all the time. Don't expect the standard V8 to get better mileage or better performance. Why? Weight. I bet the new car is going to weigh 3700-3800 lbs.
Sticker on fully optioned WS6's was pushing 35k by 2002. You will not see a V8 5th gen for under 30k, period.
Also, the weight isnt that much different really. My race weight is almost 3800 lbs, so the car is about 3600(t-tops, power, no leather). I have added some weight(frame ties, LCA's, STB), but not a ton. A couple of hundred lbs isnt chump change, but I dont consider it huge.
I hope the V6 is a nice car and sells well, and I hope they keep the style fresh. Not like the 4th gen which only had 1 restyle in 10 model years.
02-13-2008, 10:35 PM
#79
10.4 million for a CEO of a major world wide corporation is a bargain! go look up what CEO salaries are these days.
sure, its a lot more than average employees but all the employee has to do is show up to work and do what theyre told. its up to the CEO to DIRECT AND ENTIRE WORLD WIDE COMPANY! are you trying to say that that kind of responsibility for someone who is fully educated and is putting their entire career on the line is worth only a little more than an average employee?
imo unions had their place when they were created. to improve working conditions so people didnt die on the job because it was dangerous when the industrial revolution happened. now what do they do? they discourage people from working their hardest and try to get unskilled employees the same pay as skilled employees. and pretty much the unions only bargaining chip is to tell the employees to go on strike to hurt the company into giving into their demands. what, cant bargain with anything else other than by disrupting the regular salary of your union supporters?
if anyone thinks unions arent a big business, just like real corporations, you are mistaken. unions have their greedy agendas too for their leaders
sure, its a lot more than average employees but all the employee has to do is show up to work and do what theyre told. its up to the CEO to DIRECT AND ENTIRE WORLD WIDE COMPANY! are you trying to say that that kind of responsibility for someone who is fully educated and is putting their entire career on the line is worth only a little more than an average employee?
imo unions had their place when they were created. to improve working conditions so people didnt die on the job because it was dangerous when the industrial revolution happened. now what do they do? they discourage people from working their hardest and try to get unskilled employees the same pay as skilled employees. and pretty much the unions only bargaining chip is to tell the employees to go on strike to hurt the company into giving into their demands. what, cant bargain with anything else other than by disrupting the regular salary of your union supporters?
if anyone thinks unions arent a big business, just like real corporations, you are mistaken. unions have their greedy agendas too for their leaders
02-13-2008, 10:35 PM
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uh huh...
You just contradicted yourself! How many L76's are made compared to LS3's?
Besides, what is so special about the LS3 besides it being middlingly more powerful?
Oooo, it's all-aluminum.
I'll take Iron for durability and a LOWER COST, thank you. How many all-aluminum engines do you see running around with hundreds of thousands of miles these days? You usually don't....
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the L76 being a base model motor that is supposed to be IN-LINE with the Mustang's soon-to-be uprated 4.6L and the soon-to-be stroked 5.7L Hemi that'll come in the base V-8's of those cars. Trust me, those special edition eights will be the one you need to buy anyway, because they aren't coming out until the second year anyway, the year most of the guys on here will actually buy one. Just stick it out and get a nice, LSA/ LS9-powered Z/28 or SS.
You can have your monster, just don't act like the monster should be the next step after the base model. Honestly, it doesn't look logical to go from a V6 making like 280hp to an all-aluminum, Corvette-sourced V8 making 150 more horsepower than the next-lowest option. It doesn't look good on the sticker either when the price jumps from $21000 to $34000. That's a good way to kill the V8 options. Now, before you say, "*bitch, complainWAHHH, but that's how the 4th gens did it!*bitch, complain*" , I suggest you take a look at how some of the MORE SUCCESSFUL Camaro models did their model lineup. The 2nd and 3rd gens are an EXCELLENT example of how to market a coupe like this. The thirds, for example, ended up having a 3.1L V6, rated at like 150-160hp as the base model, a 305ci V8 making like ~200hp, and the 350TPI making like 250hp. Notice how well the 305 model sold, being a true intermediate option. Today's Camaro 305 RS would be the L76 priced at a stunningly Mustang-esque cost of ~$25-26K, and it would sell well to those who want the car but can't find a reason drop $12K over the base model price just to get some SEMBLANCE of high-performance.
The difference here is that the 305ci sucked and the L76 is better than the LS1, an engine still heralded as being of heavenly origin....
So, what's the problem here? GM isn't going to sell LS3 Camaros for $25K, so it would seem to me that you are suggesting that GM follow a very poor business plan that would alienate customers and lose sales. I gotcha.
You just contradicted yourself! How many L76's are made compared to LS3's?
Besides, what is so special about the LS3 besides it being middlingly more powerful?
Oooo, it's all-aluminum.
I'll take Iron for durability and a LOWER COST, thank you. How many all-aluminum engines do you see running around with hundreds of thousands of miles these days? You usually don't....There is absolutely nothing wrong with the L76 being a base model motor that is supposed to be IN-LINE with the Mustang's soon-to-be uprated 4.6L and the soon-to-be stroked 5.7L Hemi that'll come in the base V-8's of those cars. Trust me, those special edition eights will be the one you need to buy anyway, because they aren't coming out until the second year anyway, the year most of the guys on here will actually buy one. Just stick it out and get a nice, LSA/ LS9-powered Z/28 or SS.
You can have your monster, just don't act like the monster should be the next step after the base model. Honestly, it doesn't look logical to go from a V6 making like 280hp to an all-aluminum, Corvette-sourced V8 making 150 more horsepower than the next-lowest option. It doesn't look good on the sticker either when the price jumps from $21000 to $34000. That's a good way to kill the V8 options. Now, before you say, "*bitch, complainWAHHH, but that's how the 4th gens did it!*bitch, complain*" , I suggest you take a look at how some of the MORE SUCCESSFUL Camaro models did their model lineup. The 2nd and 3rd gens are an EXCELLENT example of how to market a coupe like this. The thirds, for example, ended up having a 3.1L V6, rated at like 150-160hp as the base model, a 305ci V8 making like ~200hp, and the 350TPI making like 250hp. Notice how well the 305 model sold, being a true intermediate option. Today's Camaro 305 RS would be the L76 priced at a stunningly Mustang-esque cost of ~$25-26K, and it would sell well to those who want the car but can't find a reason drop $12K over the base model price just to get some SEMBLANCE of high-performance.
The difference here is that the 305ci sucked and the L76 is better than the LS1, an engine still heralded as being of heavenly origin....
So, what's the problem here? GM isn't going to sell LS3 Camaros for $25K, so it would seem to me that you are suggesting that GM follow a very poor business plan that would alienate customers and lose sales. I gotcha.
I would have to agree with this man he makes sense. I'm going to have to wait til 3rd year anyways.