GM will keep the Camaro affordable
#121
Kind of like the 4th gens were initially slower than the fastest third-gens?
As I recall, the Turbo Trans AM was significantly faster than the LT1 T/A. Funny isn't it, how fast we forget...
I'm telling you guys, the L76 is a very good base engine, one that would easily support any mods that are currently available, and some that aren't.
I think people are also forgetting(once again...) that the L76 is making 385lb/ft of torque....on regular 87 octane gas, if I'm not mistaken. LS1 requires premium to make it's numbers, so I think you guys should see the potential there. Seriously, if it comes with the L76, we will have almost Terminator-like ease of power production, simply because 365hp/385lb/ft of torque is VERY conservative for a 6.0L with superb heads and intake. Like the others, I have a feeling the real numbers are closer to 385-390, but don't tell the insurance companies that.
This Camaro won't be slower than the last one, no matter how deluded some of you might be by the LS3 kool-aid.
I just don't understand all the hub-bub about this engine being "weak." It's not weak at all, it just isn't a bloody Indy-car plant like some of you seem to be expecting.
And for the record, $22k Z28 Camaro's were rarely seen at the dealership, simply because they were strippers. Who wants a car that costs $22K without A/C or a CD player? blech. Also, just because the pricing on those was similar does not make it a "fair" competitor to the Mustang GT of that year, in fact, I think it rivals the '93 Cobra vs '93 Z28 comparo for mismatch of the decade. While we're at it, let's compare an '03 Cobra to an '04 GTO. Not exactly fair now is it?
As I recall, the Turbo Trans AM was significantly faster than the LT1 T/A. Funny isn't it, how fast we forget...
I'm telling you guys, the L76 is a very good base engine, one that would easily support any mods that are currently available, and some that aren't.
I think people are also forgetting(once again...) that the L76 is making 385lb/ft of torque....on regular 87 octane gas, if I'm not mistaken. LS1 requires premium to make it's numbers, so I think you guys should see the potential there. Seriously, if it comes with the L76, we will have almost Terminator-like ease of power production, simply because 365hp/385lb/ft of torque is VERY conservative for a 6.0L with superb heads and intake. Like the others, I have a feeling the real numbers are closer to 385-390, but don't tell the insurance companies that.
This Camaro won't be slower than the last one, no matter how deluded some of you might be by the LS3 kool-aid.
I just don't understand all the hub-bub about this engine being "weak." It's not weak at all, it just isn't a bloody Indy-car plant like some of you seem to be expecting.
And for the record, $22k Z28 Camaro's were rarely seen at the dealership, simply because they were strippers. Who wants a car that costs $22K without A/C or a CD player? blech. Also, just because the pricing on those was similar does not make it a "fair" competitor to the Mustang GT of that year, in fact, I think it rivals the '93 Cobra vs '93 Z28 comparo for mismatch of the decade. While we're at it, let's compare an '03 Cobra to an '04 GTO. Not exactly fair now is it?
Is this all just your opinion or did you hear from someone they may use this engine? If you wanna compare the past, compare the recent past, they've been using corvette engine's in the camaro's lately. The ls1, even the ls2 in the concept. Now the vette has the ls3...so if they follow suite...I think you're going too far back in the past, that's why people are quick to forget, because it's in the past, lol, it's different now, but then again who knows...
I thought I read somewhere though that it will be a v8 that hasn't been used before? Guess time will tell.
#122
for ***** sake, lets just say the 5th gen is marginally slower on paper than a 4th gen with a good driver - stock. but whats it gonna do thats better than the 4th gen? probably every thing else and more! and it will most probably be much higher in overall quality! not to mention an iron 6.0 has gobs of potential. im sure the car in base V8 trim will be able to pull of some low 5 sec 0-60 sprints
and if the fbod really was priced competitively in its last years, why did sales start dropping off leading to the death of the car? because it was priced much higher than the competition!
yes, hand me down vette technology and parts do trickle down to the rest of the lines, but this car needs to have its own distinct character first, and im sure it will. putting an LS3 in everything is not the way to sell vehicles to the average consumer. key word being average.
and if the fbod really was priced competitively in its last years, why did sales start dropping off leading to the death of the car? because it was priced much higher than the competition!
yes, hand me down vette technology and parts do trickle down to the rest of the lines, but this car needs to have its own distinct character first, and im sure it will. putting an LS3 in everything is not the way to sell vehicles to the average consumer. key word being average.
#123
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 32,395
Likes: 1,816
From: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
yes, hand me down vette technology and parts do trickle down to the rest of the lines, but this car needs to have its own distinct character first, and im sure it will. putting an LS3 in everything is not the way to sell vehicles to the average consumer. key word being average.
Again, I could really care less if the Camaro comes with a hotter L76 that's making 400hp, or a detuned LS3 that makes 400hp. But I, for one, hope to see a near-400hp base V8 Camaro one way or another. In 2002, the base V6 car was rated at 200hp, with the base V8 at 310 (350 actual). That's a 110hp spread in ratings from V6 to base V8 (and a bigger spread in actual numbers). So there is no reason why GM can't justify a 110hp spread from V6 to base V8 for the 5th gen.
#124
Actually the 22k 2002 Z/28 included AC...
The more I think about this the worse the L76 sounds...the LS3 should be the base V8 engine, period.
That engine is not that expensive to make and the C6 has and is using. The G8 is going to be using it and other cars will be using it.
W
The more I think about this the worse the L76 sounds...the LS3 should be the base V8 engine, period.
That engine is not that expensive to make and the C6 has and is using. The G8 is going to be using it and other cars will be using it.
W
#125
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 32,395
Likes: 1,816
From: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
As much as I might disagree with you on pricing, I agree 100% with your post above.
#128
#129
It's a better guestimate than the LS3 showing up! How many Zeta platform cars currently use the LS3?
I rest my case.
You guys know the L76 will inevitably be in the Camaro, but you just choose not to accept it, in the vain hopes that the LS3 is gonna be a base-model engine.
If you want 400hp from the L76, all you need to do is get a tune, intake, and exhaust and *poof* there is your extra 50hp. It's already been proven to be capable of making that kind of power gain with minor stuff like that only. What's the problem here?
That pretty much hands you your 415hp on a silver platter, guys! That's less than a car payment for some of ya'll! Did I mention the L76 is a responsive-*** engine to mods? The L76 is like a secret weapon ninja engine just waiting for the time to strike!
I guess I just don't understand the need to "clobber" the Mustang.
I rest my case.
You guys know the L76 will inevitably be in the Camaro, but you just choose not to accept it, in the vain hopes that the LS3 is gonna be a base-model engine.
If you want 400hp from the L76, all you need to do is get a tune, intake, and exhaust and *poof* there is your extra 50hp. It's already been proven to be capable of making that kind of power gain with minor stuff like that only. What's the problem here?
That pretty much hands you your 415hp on a silver platter, guys! That's less than a car payment for some of ya'll! Did I mention the L76 is a responsive-*** engine to mods? The L76 is like a secret weapon ninja engine just waiting for the time to strike!
I guess I just don't understand the need to "clobber" the Mustang.
#130
imo i do not care, if it comes witha 4.8 with iron heads
if i can get one for less than 25k$ with just m6, power windows, and locks and cloth seats i will take it. in black, hell with steel wheels if available, i wouldnt even need a radio, just the a/c.
ive never ever kept a a stock radio on any vehicle ive ever owned, not for less than a month at least.
as LSx engine enthusiasts and racers, we have finally reached the point where the aftermarket is huge and growing every day it seems, most all aftermarket engine parts will carryover from the ones designed for ls1,ls2 engines.
im not really concerned with the power ratings of the car, im more concerned with the base v8 m6 pricing and rear end strength. i have accrued a garage full of ls engine parts, (not really a garage)from truck and camaro parts and
and internet parts that i have bought just because the price was to good to pass up and i could use somewhere down the road.
i currently have 370ci forged shortblock with 58x crank, ready to be called into duty.
if i can get one for less than 25k$ with just m6, power windows, and locks and cloth seats i will take it. in black, hell with steel wheels if available, i wouldnt even need a radio, just the a/c.
ive never ever kept a a stock radio on any vehicle ive ever owned, not for less than a month at least.
as LSx engine enthusiasts and racers, we have finally reached the point where the aftermarket is huge and growing every day it seems, most all aftermarket engine parts will carryover from the ones designed for ls1,ls2 engines.
im not really concerned with the power ratings of the car, im more concerned with the base v8 m6 pricing and rear end strength. i have accrued a garage full of ls engine parts, (not really a garage)from truck and camaro parts and
and internet parts that i have bought just because the price was to good to pass up and i could use somewhere down the road.
i currently have 370ci forged shortblock with 58x crank, ready to be called into duty.
#131
GM should offer an LS3 in a stripped down interior for 25k...
cloth seats
air and heat
radio
manual windows and locks (if they even have the ability to put this on there)
Make it look plain jane with no badging...can look like a V6
GM would not lose money on this car. And .9 of us on this site would buy it.
Normal ppl would not want that car at all...but it would provide us with a Cheap screamer.
W
cloth seats
air and heat
radio
manual windows and locks (if they even have the ability to put this on there)
Make it look plain jane with no badging...can look like a V6
GM would not lose money on this car. And .9 of us on this site would buy it.
Normal ppl would not want that car at all...but it would provide us with a Cheap screamer.
W
#132
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 32,395
Likes: 1,816
From: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
Either way, it's not about accepting it. I/we don't have to accept anything, if I don't like it, I just won't buy it. Simple as that. Now, that's not to say that I'd pass it up *just* because it's got an L76. But I will likely take a pass if the best V8 I can get for under $35k is the L76 making less than 400hp.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I really don't care if they *offer* a 365hp engine, but they had better make a 400hp engine available for a reasonable price (less than $35k) in this car as well. I'd just feel pretty bad bringing home my brand new Camaro in 2010 or whenever and parking it next to my 12 year old '98 Z and 8 year old '02 Z, that both make only 15-20hp less (stock), and that weight significantly less making them likely faster. Just doesn't seem like progress to me, if that makes sense. I understand that the L76 is very responsive to mods, but I don't want to have to start off with a car that's slower or the same as the last generation of the same model that I bought a decade back. That's all.
And I don't understand what's wrong with clobbering the Mustang. GM made a habit of doing that all through the '90s, with only the Cobras coming close to base V8 Camaros of the same year, power wise. Why not keep it that way? It can only help sales.
#133
In any case this can go on forever, it's all opinion, I'm just going by recent trend, but only time will tell and hopefully they'll give the details of the v8 sooner than later.
#134
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 32,395
Likes: 1,816
From: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
But again, the ls1 was in the vette and camaro (was the lt1 in the vette also before the ls1?), and when the concept came out, they put the ls2 in there without question, and from what I hear, the only reason the ls2 won't be used is because it will run it's course by the time the camaro come's out. With the vette having the ls3, why wouldn't the camaro, if it had the same engine the base vette's had in recent years now?
Which is the reason why it's very likey to see an LS3 in at least *one* trim level of the new Camaro. Whether the L76 is involved or not I could care less, JUST so long as I can get an LS3 Camaro for around $32k or so.
#135
Regardless of it all, GM has shot themself in the foot for not having it done 2 years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKXSg...eature=related
I think these are going to do really well. But then again, maybe the release of the Challenger will just spark more "pony car" enthusiasim in the public, giving the Camaro a more open market to come into.
Im sure they will have a model to compete with every model Ford and Chrysler have. Low (v6 models), medium (gt, 5.7 hemi challenger), and then high (gt500, srt8). I could see the v6, the 5.3, and then the ls3. Who knows what the badging will be, but the Camaro with an ls3 would be in the high $30k range to compete with the srt8. Then, maybe we will see a ls9 powered car to compete with the GT500.
All i know is that i just hope it makes it to production. I wont be buying one (unless something changes quickly), im hoping it drives the prices of the existing ls powered cars (particularly the GTO )!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKXSg...eature=related
I think these are going to do really well. But then again, maybe the release of the Challenger will just spark more "pony car" enthusiasim in the public, giving the Camaro a more open market to come into.
Im sure they will have a model to compete with every model Ford and Chrysler have. Low (v6 models), medium (gt, 5.7 hemi challenger), and then high (gt500, srt8). I could see the v6, the 5.3, and then the ls3. Who knows what the badging will be, but the Camaro with an ls3 would be in the high $30k range to compete with the srt8. Then, maybe we will see a ls9 powered car to compete with the GT500.
All i know is that i just hope it makes it to production. I wont be buying one (unless something changes quickly), im hoping it drives the prices of the existing ls powered cars (particularly the GTO )!
#138
Just a guess:
V6(265hp)- G8 Sedan.....Camaro coupe
L76(362hp)- G8 GT.........Camaro SS
LS3(435hp)- G8 GXP........Camaro Z28
As for my guess on pricing in tune with competition trends:
Charger($25,685)...................G8($27,595) < I do think the G8 base cost more more due to more standard options over the Charger and unavoidable cost to bring it from the Aussies
Charger R/T($30,755).............G8 GT($29,995)
Charger SRT-8($36,355)..........G8 GXP($35,750)
Challenger($24,250)................Camaro($22,500) ..............Mustang($19,490)
Challenger R/T($29,500)..........Camaro SS($28,250)..........Mustang GT($26,080)
Chall. SRT8 6.1L($35,995).....Camaro Z28($34,500)...........Mustang BOSS($33,995)
Chall. ACR 6.4 ($45,095).....Camaro ZL1-LSA($43,250).....Mustang GT500 ($42,170)
Numbers in Bold are solid MSRPs
While its just a guess, I think its a realistic one in my opinion. Im sure many will argue about it. An arguement about something that no-one knows for sure about is pointless because once the final numbers are out we all could be wrong on all sides. So I think its in all good fun to guess or hope. Opinions are good discussion, but not enough for someone to claim to hold the crystalball. So with that said I present my opinion as I see the car lineup with the big three.
Factors in my guess:
-The G8 GXP......I think it will be basically a Holden Commodore HSV. Ive heard Holden is swapping over from the LS2 in it to a LS3. So basically I think it will translate roughly into a GXP. With that in mind, I think a Camaro with a LS3 would follow.
-The G8 GT has a L76, why would a model engineered by the same people who made the G8/VE, with the Zeta chassis, and cost less than a G8 GT have a LS3. I could happen, I dunno. It just doesnt make sense to me from a marketing/direct competition stand point to do it. I think it will be L76 as a base V8.
-I still have the MSRP of $31,290 of a 2006 GTO dancing in my head. Its had a LS2 400hp engine. I have a hard time believing that a Camaro with LS3 435hp will cost less than that of a 2006 GTO. It not a strong factor in my opinion, but it still has the taste of reason.
-Im also leaning away from the Corvette engine hand-me-down theory for this translation of the Camaro. I think this car is going to have I a lot of firsts. For one, its the first Camaro to be developed equally between GM's Holden and Chevy divisions. Its the first IRS Camaro. Its the first one to use a global chassis. Its prolly has a lot of first we cant see yet. Point being....Why wouldn the Camaro have the same rationale on engine/trim choices like before?
-You may have noticed that the Camaro cost more than the Mustang, but less than the Challenger. The reason I believe that is due to my belief that the Camaro standard options, quality, and etc will exceed the Mustang and the Challenger will prolly follow the trend of Dodges pricing of the Charger.
-Second you prolly noticed the reduced cost of the Challenger. Well I think to from a price stand point, I think it would be hard to demand the current price when it gets a V6 and 350hp 5.7L. By MY2009 I think the Challenger body will be cheaper due to the mass production of lesser model in the lineup. I think how a SRT-8 Charger cost $36,355 and a Challenger cost $40,095 is horrible. But Im sure that will change when the Chally gets low end models like it big brother, the charger.
-Also my addition of a 6.4L to the Chally lineup. If the rumored 6.4 makes it into limited number into the Challenger it will prolly will be in the 500hp neighborhood with the GT500. With that said, I think of the LSA in the CTS-V. Now, I dont expect it a ZL-1 to be in the regular lineup, I do think it will be offered as a limited production model. Reason: Why the hell would GM not attack a GT500 and 6.4L Chally?
-The Mustang BOSS, now this is just an idea. The rumored Hurricane program redubbed the BOSS program is the basis. I think a N/A 5.0L (rumored) with 400hp is realistic. Even the rumored Ecoboost twin-turbo V6 with 400hp could be a factor.
If my guess is somewhat near the end results, I will be happy.
V6(265hp)- G8 Sedan.....Camaro coupe
L76(362hp)- G8 GT.........Camaro SS
LS3(435hp)- G8 GXP........Camaro Z28
As for my guess on pricing in tune with competition trends:
Charger($25,685)...................G8($27,595) < I do think the G8 base cost more more due to more standard options over the Charger and unavoidable cost to bring it from the Aussies
Charger R/T($30,755).............G8 GT($29,995)
Charger SRT-8($36,355)..........G8 GXP($35,750)
Challenger($24,250)................Camaro($22,500) ..............Mustang($19,490)
Challenger R/T($29,500)..........Camaro SS($28,250)..........Mustang GT($26,080)
Chall. SRT8 6.1L($35,995).....Camaro Z28($34,500)...........Mustang BOSS($33,995)
Chall. ACR 6.4 ($45,095).....Camaro ZL1-LSA($43,250).....Mustang GT500 ($42,170)
Numbers in Bold are solid MSRPs
While its just a guess, I think its a realistic one in my opinion. Im sure many will argue about it. An arguement about something that no-one knows for sure about is pointless because once the final numbers are out we all could be wrong on all sides. So I think its in all good fun to guess or hope. Opinions are good discussion, but not enough for someone to claim to hold the crystalball. So with that said I present my opinion as I see the car lineup with the big three.
Factors in my guess:
-The G8 GXP......I think it will be basically a Holden Commodore HSV. Ive heard Holden is swapping over from the LS2 in it to a LS3. So basically I think it will translate roughly into a GXP. With that in mind, I think a Camaro with a LS3 would follow.
-The G8 GT has a L76, why would a model engineered by the same people who made the G8/VE, with the Zeta chassis, and cost less than a G8 GT have a LS3. I could happen, I dunno. It just doesnt make sense to me from a marketing/direct competition stand point to do it. I think it will be L76 as a base V8.
-I still have the MSRP of $31,290 of a 2006 GTO dancing in my head. Its had a LS2 400hp engine. I have a hard time believing that a Camaro with LS3 435hp will cost less than that of a 2006 GTO. It not a strong factor in my opinion, but it still has the taste of reason.
-Im also leaning away from the Corvette engine hand-me-down theory for this translation of the Camaro. I think this car is going to have I a lot of firsts. For one, its the first Camaro to be developed equally between GM's Holden and Chevy divisions. Its the first IRS Camaro. Its the first one to use a global chassis. Its prolly has a lot of first we cant see yet. Point being....Why wouldn the Camaro have the same rationale on engine/trim choices like before?
-You may have noticed that the Camaro cost more than the Mustang, but less than the Challenger. The reason I believe that is due to my belief that the Camaro standard options, quality, and etc will exceed the Mustang and the Challenger will prolly follow the trend of Dodges pricing of the Charger.
-Second you prolly noticed the reduced cost of the Challenger. Well I think to from a price stand point, I think it would be hard to demand the current price when it gets a V6 and 350hp 5.7L. By MY2009 I think the Challenger body will be cheaper due to the mass production of lesser model in the lineup. I think how a SRT-8 Charger cost $36,355 and a Challenger cost $40,095 is horrible. But Im sure that will change when the Chally gets low end models like it big brother, the charger.
-Also my addition of a 6.4L to the Chally lineup. If the rumored 6.4 makes it into limited number into the Challenger it will prolly will be in the 500hp neighborhood with the GT500. With that said, I think of the LSA in the CTS-V. Now, I dont expect it a ZL-1 to be in the regular lineup, I do think it will be offered as a limited production model. Reason: Why the hell would GM not attack a GT500 and 6.4L Chally?
-The Mustang BOSS, now this is just an idea. The rumored Hurricane program redubbed the BOSS program is the basis. I think a N/A 5.0L (rumored) with 400hp is realistic. Even the rumored Ecoboost twin-turbo V6 with 400hp could be a factor.
If my guess is somewhat near the end results, I will be happy.
Last edited by LSjinx; 02-17-2008 at 02:53 AM.
#139
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 32,395
Likes: 1,816
From: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
#140