exodus_gs1

iTrader: (3)

I'm surprised there hasn't been any ford guys popping in with the own analogy. But coming from a guy with both mustang and Camaro, my mustang does get more attention being a 67 but isn't cost effective. I use to be a hardcore ford guy but im a sucker for a ls1 what can i say. My buddy had 5 grand in motor work and suspension and I was neck and neck is bone stock a4 Ta and smashed him in my a4 camaro

216StealthSS

I think it all starts with the internal combustion engine. chevy +100 and ford -200

even though im looking at a 03 cobra currently

exodus_gs1

iTrader: (3)

Buddy had a 03 gt

216StealthSS

Never owned a mustang yet, i want to get one so i can go back and fourth. one day ford guy one day chevy guy

SSdreamz

iTrader: (3)

i used a sbf torque plate on my ls1 when i was machining the bores. Yes cyylinder bores did line up and most of the head bolts lined up but that was it the valve train geometry wouldnt have come close to working

LS1_Sean

iTrader: (1)

my friend worked at a plant where they assembled lsx 454 and the new 5.0. he said some one bolted up a lsx head to the 5.0 on accident...lol
If it bolts up doesn't mean its going to work.

SVTconfused

302/351w used a 4.0 bore fwiw... so in theory the bore is big enuff to run a ls head... i checked this the other day by putting a junk 853 head on a 302 and the bolt holes in the head need a 1/8in taking out of them or so and they will bolt up to a 302/351

now wheter or not the coolant passages line up thats a different story... i need a head gaske to check that

shank0668

haha, this was a good laugh for the night.

Mr Incredible

Just a little fairy dust to tie up loose ends and we're good to go...

FrontDizzy

After reading through all the Ford bashing on this site, let alone this thread, I'm fairly positive the maturity level here matches the mentality. I started off as a Chevy guy, then kinda got addicted to mustangs and SBF's. So I've been around the block a time or 2 on the differences between the standard issue SBC and SBF that have been around forever.

Anyone that thinks the LS1 isn't designed around many features of a SBF hasn't been around very long or is just so fanatical about the manufacturer they like that they don't know much about the competition at all. As a drag racer, I like all fast cars. Chevy, Ford, Mopar, Honda are all exciting with the right amount of parts.

But looking at the old standard SBC that's been around forever, the basic differences that everyone, even the uneducated on cars, knew about were: Chevy had a rear oiling setup, rear distributor setup, a cooling system with a timing cover separate from the pump where as coolant flowed to the block 1st, then the cylinder heads. Chevy's had siamese intake and exhaust ports, and 17 head bolts in a hex pattern. That was and always will be a SBC to me.

While Ford had a front cooling system where the timing cover/water pump were integrated to each other and coolant flowed through the cylinder heads 1st then block. The oiling system was in the front along with the distributor. The cylinder heads take 10 head bolts in 2 rows of 5. The exhaust and intake ports are standalone and not siamese.

In the LS1 the oiling system, the cooling system, the intake and exhaust ports, even the amount of head bolts is directly from the old SBF. Heck the distributor is even now in the front if you went carb/distributor setup. And now the LS1 even uses a SBF HO firing order. I'm sorry, but anyone daft enough to think this isn't taken right out of the pages of the SBF that's been around forever is an inbecile or, like many, don't know anything about their competition's products because they've never built one. From someone that has done both, it's plain as day the LS1 is GM's version of a SBF.

I think it's a great motor. Many things I didn't like about the SBC they've gone away with which happened to be many of the same things I liked about the SBF. It's clearly a win for Chevy. But when the die hard Ford guys say the LS1 is designed around a SBF, sorry, but you'd have to be an utter retard to not think so as well.

homerz28

but, GM did it with an all aluminum engine.

TurboMark8

Incorrect. The 4.6 mod was debuted in 92' in the 93' model year lincoln mark 8's. 4 years beforw the ls1 popped up in the 96' (97 model year) vette

FrontDizzy

I know the point of what you said. It was out much earlier, etc. But the mod motor 4.6 actually came OEM in a 91 towncar. I believe that's the 1st model year.

parks400

So GM paid all those engineers to build a SBF? The pushrod v8 has been around a long time, so similarities from different years and makes of engines is going to happen, but to say the LS is designed around the SBF is quote "utterly retarded." Won't deny the similarity in the port layout and head bolt pattern, but what about the deep skirted block design with cross bolted main caps, which reminds me of the ford y-block 292? Does this mean the block was designed around an engine that started production in 1954? Hardly.

GM designed a great engine using old technology to keep down costs and keep up reliability. The greatest thing about LS engines is, like the SBC before it, most things will interchange. Not even going to start the list on what won't interchange on the mod motors. Ford has really good ideas, plenty of them work. But they can't keep from changing the design, sometimes midyear. Just makes it a pain in the *** to work on all around.

usnfenix

iTrader: (11)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoo...kruptcy-again/

just saying lol. not bashing GM too much i have owned an ss and i will own another ls1 for a project car after my next deployment, however some of the ford haters on this site need to take a step back and see that the fbody is not god of the street scene lol, and quit with the "found on road dead" talk before there own company is found in the same manner.

bww3588

iTrader: (49)

And what makes you think GM is going belly up? GM paid back all it's government loans...Ford on the other hand...not so much. At this point in time, Ford has a better chance of going under than GM.

usnfenix

iTrader: (11)

last i checked fords sales were outselling gm, specifically the mustang outselling the camaro. ford received 5.9 billion whereas GM got over 50 billion in bailout money. obama gave them a tax break eliminating the majority of the debt. ford isnt having an issue repaying its debt and doesnt need tax breaks to do so. so you are wrong about ford being more likely to go under than gm, its in fact the other way around as gm is headed for yet another bailout. again as stated above dont get me wrong i love gm, and will own another ls1 f body fairly soon, but gm has been heading downhill in the past few years and with the second bailout on the horizon its looking shakey. regardless ill post a link to the article if you care enough to read it, and if you have any further debate on it just pm me, no sense in getting the op thread locked for some stupid argument that is off topic. i will post a quick paragraph i read that points out how much the government has spent on gm and is losing its money invested in them.

The government still owns 500 million shares of GM, 26 percent of the total. It needs to sell them for $53 a share to recover its $49.5 billion bailout. But the stock price is around $20 a share, and the Treasury now estimates that the government will lose more than $25 billion if and when it sells.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ichael-barone#

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...can-taxpayers/

exodus_gs1

iTrader: (3)

I come from experience in both, I have a Camaro had a T/A, have a 67 mustang and a 83 bronco, stepdad has two 2nd Gen camaros, my buddy has had a 02 and 03 gt, now has a 2010 gt. All the cars have problems and all have perks. But besides a burnt o2 wire no problems with either f-bodies, stepdad built both of his for 7500 bucks for both and that was with the purchase of the cars, my 2 fords both are broke down, 67 is to expensive to fix and 83 has drained me dry on trying to et it going. My buddy had to replace his 02 gt motor after 100k and the 03 had over 5 grand in it and lost to my stock T/A and made look dumb against my Camaro and was always having to fix little ****. His 2010 ran good for the few weeks he had it before he wrecked it and just got it back so we shall see. As for the motors being similar... How different do you expect them to be?? They do the same thing, there are only so many ways to design the same thing, just comes down to craftsmanship.

FrontDizzy

Clearly you didn't read anything I wrote. GM's new pushrod motor shares virtually nothing with the old SBC that's been around for over 50 years. But what it does share, that it never used to, is the oiling system, cooling system, head bolt pattern, intake and exhaust runner, distributor location, even the firing order lol etc., right out of the pages of the old SBF. And considering Yates even helped with the head design, I don't think it could possibly any more obvious. And cross bolted mains have been around forever on many engines including the mod motors. So I don't really see your point. I never said that the motor was an exact replica of a SBF. But it's plain as day they took the stuff that was better about a SBF compared to a SBC (read above) and based a new engine around that - aka basing it off a SBF. I imagine if the pushrod SBFs hadn't quit being made in production vehicles almost 20 years ago, there would be some radical new designs on it as well. But I doubt ford would have ever changed their entire layout that they've always based their small blocks such as GM did, especially not to a direct competitor.

There was quite a few changes between blocks etc., of older 302's to the new roller motors etc., but none of the staples that made a SBF a SBF never changed ever. This new LS1 is just like a reincarnated SBF all over again, sharing virtually nothing with it's older gen motor. I mean, car craft, hot rod, heck, all the usual center to maybe a little Chevy bias, all say the same thing. I guess they aren't blind either.

exodus_gs1

iTrader: (3)

Just because there are similarities doesn't mean that the ls1 was built to replicate a sbf. Its far better designed. So they took some ideas from a old ford motor saying that ford was the first engine to ever do it that way and used it on there new motor design... Honestly how many ways do you think they can bolt down a damn head or do the intake and exhaust ports? Now if ford would have copied the intake and exhaust runners off a Chevy all the ford guys would be throwing a **** fit saying no there .0001 mm different so it's a different design. So who gives a **** what ideas they used? This thread was started on a simple question that had nothing to do with were the ideas came from and if 241's will bolt to a 302.