gapp94vert

iTrader: (15)

Hey everyone it’s been about 4 years since I owned an ls vehicle. I previously built a cam only 98 trans am that was a consistent mid 11sec street strip car. Anyway I recently thought I got a hell of a deal on a 1998 Camaro z28 hardtop. Unfortunately I got screwed by the seller. Everything I have read about private party sales in the state of pa are consider as is. But what if rust/rot on the frame was deliberately hidden from view? The seller covered all rust and rot with duct tape then spray multiple cans of rubberized under coating to conceal it from view I’m talking about taping the frame square with about a whole roll. The only reason I found it was because the seller happened to have missed a small corner of the duct tape. The day after I brought it home I happened to be assessing a rear diff leak that I seen when I looked under the car before I bought it and noticed it I peeled it off and all the rot came peeling off with it. It’s unbelievable I have never seen anything like it before. Is there anything that can be done about this? Some research I’ve done online tells me I can take seller to court under a fraud claim is this true? I’m really pissed off about it! Thanks for any help. I can post pictures also

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Did you buy it from the original owner? If not, then it will be hard to prove that the previous owner is the one who concealed this issue in the first place. They could simply claim they knew nothing about it, therefore had nothing to disclose nor was anything hidden by them.

It would still be tough to win even if you bought it from the original owner, but you'd have a better chance. Otherwise, they can't be held responsible for passing on an issue that they didn't know about - assuming that would be their defense.

JOHNNY59

iTrader: (398)

Like the old saying goes "Buyer beware". I have bought 15 f-bodies in the last five years and a couple of sellers tried to hid some problems with their cars. One of the first things I check for is under body rust. By the way I still have five 90-02 F-bodies including a 11.0 second 98 SS. Also if you need anything I live in Slatington, Pa.

Firebrian

I've been in the same situation a couple of times. It wasn't worth the effort to go after anyone. In one case it was a dealer/resto shop that hid rusted frame damage on a 1968 GTX. It was freshly covered up. Something I didn't find out until 2-3 yrs later when I went to sell it...and a buyer asked me straight up, "is there any rot?" I couldn't unequivocably say yes because I never took a hammer or screwdriver to tap on every bit of the frame. I proceeded to do that, and found a few "hollow" sounding spots that were bondoed/undercoated over. I bought a 2nd car from that dealer before I found that stuff out. When I tracked the history of that 2nd car through state DMV's in the 1990's, I found out that a supposed very low mileage/original paint car had been rolled back from 85K miles to 16K miles. That was proven by DMV documents and the original owner who I had tracked down. Even though a major restoration/salvage yard had done the dirty deed (and signed/notarized phony documents), I couldn't get to first base going after them through state consumer protection, AG's, police, BBB, etc. They didn't really car or they had bigger things to worry about. It really comes down to the fact that watchdog agencies aren't very interested in white collar ">10 yr old" car crimes unless it's a major syndicate involving large sums of money and a large number of consumers. 1 on 1 white collar "collectibles" crimes are handled in civil/small claims courts where you and/or your lawyers and the judge hash it out.

You'll need to get independent appraisers/body shops to testify to your position. They may not be able to easily verify that the last owner knew, had to know, or did the dirty deed themselves. There are a lot of "ifs" here. It wouldn't be easy and it could cost more than what the repairs might cost. Even if you get a judgement can you collect on it? If you're not sure, can a lien be placed on property they own? The seller has a "sold as is" signed document which means you inspected the car to your/outside experts satisfaction before you bought it. Considering you owned an LS car before, you are fairly experienced. The frames on these cars are not all that rugged. Extra material and non-factory applied coatings "should" be fairly easily to determine. I've done classic cars for 20 years and I can tell you horror stories of cars I've seen for sale from lying private parties and dealers....stuff you wouldn't even believe. Stuff that I still can't believe occurred. What a jungle out there. I'm surprised more of these horror stories don't pop up on this website/WIW. Maybe we have a pretty honest bunch here?

Odds are stacked against you even if you're right. The burden of proof is high and is on your shoulders. If all your body shops say the repairs are very fresh (0-1 yrs) and had to occur with the current owner (they've owned the car several years) then you at least have a starting point. They will also have to testify as to the difference in value you paid vs. the cost to fix the frame. Any judge following the letter of the law will wonder why you signed an "as-is" contract without thoroughly inspecting the car....and that's not a defense. That may be all the evidence they need to rule for the seller. And the fact that you stated you got a "great deal" suggests you should have been very curious as to why. Will the body men testify that the great deal you get is probably the cost to weld in repairs on the frame? When I found the body rot from that dealer who sold me my first '68 GTX, I forked over $800 to another shop to repair their shoddy "restification." At least my conscience was clear when I went to sell that car...and hid nothing from the next owner.

Nowhere did the seller sign anything stating there was no rust in the frame...and none was repaired with bondo/duct tape/chicken wire. Don't laugh. I saw a rusty, basket case 1969 Plymouth GTX convertible in upstate NY (described to me as fully restored only 3-4 yrs earlier). I could have put my head through the holes in the trunk and wheel wells....lol. I drove 4 hours to see that "restored" car. Every part on that car was rusted or moldy....asking price around $8K-$10K as I recall. A year later I saw it for sale on the Chryslers at Carlisle show field (1997-1999?) with a big talking dealer asking $14,500. In my opinion they had used chicken wire and bondo to "fix" the big holes. Then painted over it. A brand new top, fresh B5 blue paint, some nice chrome and fresh door skins/seat covers....and voila....a fully restored show queen....lol. No doubt they did poor repairs all over that car. Someone ended up with it. And the circle of car life goes on.

After getting burned twice I became pretty proficient at spotting bondo/rust/shoddy repaints/repairs on old classic cars. Unless you're looking at very low mileage, 1 owner, garage kept cream puffs for sale, the first things we always do is check for body damage, repaints, wrong or missing tags, and rust in the frames/steel panels. You almost have to expect it as the miles get high. The first Camaro SS I considered buying from a dealer in Nov 2011 (74K miles and 2 owners) had a repainted quarter panel that I immediately picked up on and they didn't or weren't passing it along. I didn't look any further (or on the undercarriage) once the test drive didn't go so well either.

RockinWs6

I live nearby and have a decent 98 v6 Camaro for sale. You could swap the engine etc.

Dragonmedic67

This is why I tell guys it's well worth the road trip to buy from southern states. Originialy from Buffalo its has a been a dream to work on 50 year old vehicles with rust free bodies and frames. No more rotted out lines or spending hours extracting and retapping broken fasteners.