Selling LS Swapped Modded Vehicle - Potential Liability ?
03-14-2020, 06:32 PM
#1
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Selling LS Swapped Modded Vehicle - Potential Liability ? This may have been discussed here before but just wondering what everyone thinks about potential liability for selling LS swapped vehicle. I am not a dealer but as an individual seller, I use the following Bill of Sale, check ID and have the buyer sign and date it. I have been told that what I have below is not worth the paper its written on and the lawyers will sue anyway god forbid is someone gets hurt in modified car. I was also told that if you are an individual (ie., not a car dealer) any car you sell is being sold as is. That is the law. Writing it out and telling them in writing that it is being sold "as is" is simply putting into writing something which is already true.
So which is it?
Thought?
-
Motor Vehicle Bill of Sale
BE IT KNOWN, that for payment in the sum of _______________ the full receipt of which is acknowledged, the undersigned ______________________________ (Seller) hereby sells and transfers to _____________________________ (Buyer), the following described motor vehicle.
Make: Model or series:
Year: Color:
VIN #: Style:
Odometer reading: Title #:
Seller acknowledges receipt of ______________ in payment for the Vehicle (car), full payment from the Buyer and title transferred to the Buyer.
Seller certifies to the best of the Seller's knowledge that the odometer reading listed in the Vehicle’s description above reflects the actual mileage of the Vehicle. The Vehicle’s odometer was not altered, set back, or disconnected while in the Seller's possession, and the Seller has no knowledge of anyone doing so.
Seller warrants to Buyer that Seller has good and marketable title to said property, full authority to sell and transfer said property, and that said property is sold free of all liens, encumbrances, liabilities, and adverse claims of every nature and description whatsoever.
Buyer acknowledges that the Vehicle is being sold "as is," without warranty, whether express or implied, about the condition of the Vehicle. The Buyer must satisfy itself as to what is offered for sale, and by purchasing will be held to have satisfied itself that the Vehicle is satisfactory in all respects. Any defects and all repairs are the sole responsibility of the Buyer. The Seller neither assumes, nor authorizes any other person or entity to assume on its behalf, any liability in connection with the sale of the Vehicle. The Seller's disclaimers of warranty do not affect the terms or applicability of any warranty from the Vehicle's manufacturer that may be applicable to the Vehicle.
Date signed:
Seller:
Buyer:
In the presence of (Witness):
Print name of witness:
So which is it?
Thought?
-
Motor Vehicle Bill of Sale
BE IT KNOWN, that for payment in the sum of _______________ the full receipt of which is acknowledged, the undersigned ______________________________ (Seller) hereby sells and transfers to _____________________________ (Buyer), the following described motor vehicle.
Make: Model or series:
Year: Color:
VIN #: Style:
Odometer reading: Title #:
Seller acknowledges receipt of ______________ in payment for the Vehicle (car), full payment from the Buyer and title transferred to the Buyer.
Seller certifies to the best of the Seller's knowledge that the odometer reading listed in the Vehicle’s description above reflects the actual mileage of the Vehicle. The Vehicle’s odometer was not altered, set back, or disconnected while in the Seller's possession, and the Seller has no knowledge of anyone doing so.
Seller warrants to Buyer that Seller has good and marketable title to said property, full authority to sell and transfer said property, and that said property is sold free of all liens, encumbrances, liabilities, and adverse claims of every nature and description whatsoever.
Buyer acknowledges that the Vehicle is being sold "as is," without warranty, whether express or implied, about the condition of the Vehicle. The Buyer must satisfy itself as to what is offered for sale, and by purchasing will be held to have satisfied itself that the Vehicle is satisfactory in all respects. Any defects and all repairs are the sole responsibility of the Buyer. The Seller neither assumes, nor authorizes any other person or entity to assume on its behalf, any liability in connection with the sale of the Vehicle. The Seller's disclaimers of warranty do not affect the terms or applicability of any warranty from the Vehicle's manufacturer that may be applicable to the Vehicle.
Date signed:
Seller:
Buyer:
In the presence of (Witness):
Print name of witness:
Last edited by waid786; 03-14-2020 at 07:22 PM.
03-14-2020, 08:54 PM
#2
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Unless you're offering a warranty or actively hide a serious safety flaw (and this can be proven), what would you be liable for? And how would this liability be any different based on the vehicle having been modified with a non-original engine?
Anyway, assuming you weren't the original owner of the car you sold, how could anyone prove that YOU were the one responsible for installing whatever non-original part may have failed?
Anyway, assuming you weren't the original owner of the car you sold, how could anyone prove that YOU were the one responsible for installing whatever non-original part may have failed?
03-14-2020, 08:59 PM
#3
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Unless you're offering a warranty or actively hide a serious safety flaw (and this can be proven), what would you be liable for? And how would this liability be any different based on the vehicle having been modified with a non-original engine?
Anyway, assuming you weren't the original owner of the car you sold, how could anyone prove that YOU were the one responsible for installing whatever non-original part may have failed?
Anyway, assuming you weren't the original owner of the car you sold, how could anyone prove that YOU were the one responsible for installing whatever non-original part may have failed?
Who would be liable if anyone ?
03-14-2020, 10:13 PM
#4
ModSquad
iTrader: (6)
Let’s face it...the country is full of attorneys just itching to jump on liability cases. Just watch daytime tv, if you don’t believe me. Every commercial break includes at least one law firm interested in picking up your injury claim case, and has a billion dollars in previous court decisions to prove it. GM has been sued countless times over design elements that warranted injury according to jury trials...and lost! If GM can be sued and lose, for liability, so can you and I. Folks are sue happy these days. There’s no real way to guard yourself against it, even with the utmost detailed contracts/agreements.
My advice is IF your financially well off, protect yourself, your name, your businesses with incorporations and multi million dollar liability insurance policies. it’s really not that expensive to cover yourself with a big umbrella liability policy. I have one myself, because I own an electrical contracting business. On the other hand here, if your just an average income individual, who doesn’t really own much, or have much in the way of savings, what can the attorneys actually take from you, if you are found liable in court? As the saying goes...you can’t get blood out of a turnip.
You could always open a business, incorporate it, sell the vehicle to the business, and then sell the vehicle from the business. Business would absorb liability, and would be a bankruptcy away from the mess going away...if your really that concerned about the issue at hand here.
Personally, I don’t feel that the matter here is worth getting all worried about, as long as what your selling is well put together and solid. Sure accidents happen, and things go wrong. Parts will fail and mishaps will always be a part of anything man made. We can’t live with our heads stuck in the sand, or running through life screaming that the sky is falling. Things are what they are, and you just have to be smart enough to protect what needs protecting, insuring what needs to be insured, and just let the chips fall where they may. It’s all we can do in this world.
My advice is IF your financially well off, protect yourself, your name, your businesses with incorporations and multi million dollar liability insurance policies. it’s really not that expensive to cover yourself with a big umbrella liability policy. I have one myself, because I own an electrical contracting business. On the other hand here, if your just an average income individual, who doesn’t really own much, or have much in the way of savings, what can the attorneys actually take from you, if you are found liable in court? As the saying goes...you can’t get blood out of a turnip.
You could always open a business, incorporate it, sell the vehicle to the business, and then sell the vehicle from the business. Business would absorb liability, and would be a bankruptcy away from the mess going away...if your really that concerned about the issue at hand here.
Personally, I don’t feel that the matter here is worth getting all worried about, as long as what your selling is well put together and solid. Sure accidents happen, and things go wrong. Parts will fail and mishaps will always be a part of anything man made. We can’t live with our heads stuck in the sand, or running through life screaming that the sky is falling. Things are what they are, and you just have to be smart enough to protect what needs protecting, insuring what needs to be insured, and just let the chips fall where they may. It’s all we can do in this world.
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cookseyb (03-15-2020)
03-14-2020, 10:44 PM
#5
On The Tree
Thread Starter
I know what you mean Scott. You can get sued for anything these days.
I like working on projects have fun and move on to the next project. My last project was S10 5.3/4L60E swap and sold it. The new buyer converted it to 5-speed, and bunch of other mods and now is selling it and looks nothing like what I sold. Sometimes I worry if something goes wrong, I may held liable. New new project is Mustang LS Swap.
Waid
I like working on projects have fun and move on to the next project. My last project was S10 5.3/4L60E swap and sold it. The new buyer converted it to 5-speed, and bunch of other mods and now is selling it and looks nothing like what I sold. Sometimes I worry if something goes wrong, I may held liable. New new project is Mustang LS Swap.
Waid
03-15-2020, 02:32 AM
#6
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IMO, you are likely overthinking this. Unless you're doing it as a business, or there is paperwork proving that you did the work as a side contract, or perhaps you are an automotive dealer, etc., there is no real way for anyone to prove that you would even be qualified to know the specific state, condition, and/or remaining service life of various parts on the car you sold. Who's to say that the buyer didn't tamper with something post-purchase which led to the failure? Who's to say YOU didn't buy it that way as well? Legal action against a private seller of an individual used car is a much less profitable undertaking than suing an OEM (e.g. GM, Ford, etc.) for a flawed design that's caused multiple documented issues, or even a shop for shoddy work that may have increased the chances of injury or death. If you are regularly turning out these swap projects as a sort of side business, then you might have some cause for concern. Otherwise, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
03-15-2020, 10:29 AM
#7
TECH Resident
In Texas it is much easier (read necessary) to re-title a vehicle if you have that Bill Of Sale like you have on the first post. I have to pay taxes on the amount shown on it.
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03-15-2020, 10:34 AM
#8
On The Tree
Thread Starter
03-17-2020, 05:24 AM
#9
The only thing that would matter would be if safety equipment in the car would have been modified incorrectly. An example would be compression fittings on the brake lines. If one blew apart and they determined that is what caused the accident. You can bet your *** your going to get sued. But still, it would be tough to prove that the owner installed it. Private investigators are some sneaky people though.
03-20-2020, 09:35 AM
#10
On The Tree
Thread Starter
While back I sold LS Swapped S10 5.3/4L60E. The new owner took it apart, repainted it, installed aftermarket step bed, converted to 5-speed, removed the airbag and installed aftermarket steering wheel, removed bench seat and put in some buckets with center console and removed the cats. At this point, it does not even look anything I sold.
Waid
Waid
Last edited by waid786; 03-21-2020 at 05:54 PM.
03-21-2020, 09:17 AM
#11
Maybe we could adopt the FAA regulations governing modified or home built airplanes. Apply a decal to the side of the car that says "experimental".
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cer...rt/experiment/
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cer...rt/experiment/
03-21-2020, 11:25 AM
#12
Staging Lane
The problem isn’t whether or not your liable. The problem is if someone’s attorney convinces them that your liable and sues you.
Even if you win your out 10s of thousands of dollars in legal fees.
Even if you win your out 10s of thousands of dollars in legal fees.
03-21-2020, 11:57 AM
#13
Well all I can add is this...
Former girlfriends ex husband had a motorcycle modified by a shop. The bike was involved in a single motorcycle accident that killed the ex husband. He was a very affluent business man. The daughter had means at hand to aggressively sue the shop. She picked a very nasty high powered lawyer who specialized in product negligence & liability. She put effort into finding a quality lawyer because she was very very angry about the death of her father.
There was evidence that a part installed by the shop failed possibly and contributed to or caused the accident according to her lawyer. After several years the shop settled in binding arbitration with her for a very significant but undisclosed sum. Her lawyer was very happy with the outcome. Insurance or not rumor was the shop was nearly bankrupt due to the legal costs involved with hiring their own lawyers. She won a very significant settlement...but the lawyer ended up taking about half of it.
My opinion:
1) uninsured regular individual would have been financially destroyed by the sort of lawsuit/ legal attack the daughter
2) the shop deserved to be hung out to dry. They had charged premium prices and used bottom barrel parts.
3) Affluent pissed off family members can be ruthless when legally going after the offending party.
4) Lawyers fees add up quick even if you win.
The advice to protect oneself by using a company is very wise plus an insurance policy.
Former girlfriends ex husband had a motorcycle modified by a shop. The bike was involved in a single motorcycle accident that killed the ex husband. He was a very affluent business man. The daughter had means at hand to aggressively sue the shop. She picked a very nasty high powered lawyer who specialized in product negligence & liability. She put effort into finding a quality lawyer because she was very very angry about the death of her father.
There was evidence that a part installed by the shop failed possibly and contributed to or caused the accident according to her lawyer. After several years the shop settled in binding arbitration with her for a very significant but undisclosed sum. Her lawyer was very happy with the outcome. Insurance or not rumor was the shop was nearly bankrupt due to the legal costs involved with hiring their own lawyers. She won a very significant settlement...but the lawyer ended up taking about half of it.
My opinion:
1) uninsured regular individual would have been financially destroyed by the sort of lawsuit/ legal attack the daughter
2) the shop deserved to be hung out to dry. They had charged premium prices and used bottom barrel parts.
3) Affluent pissed off family members can be ruthless when legally going after the offending party.
4) Lawyers fees add up quick even if you win.
The advice to protect oneself by using a company is very wise plus an insurance policy.
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 03-21-2020 at 12:02 PM.
03-21-2020, 01:55 PM
#14
Good illustration^^^^^
I would imagine most shops will only perform factory/OEM/CARB and EPA approved work in the future.
If you want a LS swap, you will have to DIY.
My assets are not worth suing for.
I would imagine most shops will only perform factory/OEM/CARB and EPA approved work in the future.
If you want a LS swap, you will have to DIY.
My assets are not worth suing for.
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99 Black Bird T/A (03-22-2020)
03-21-2020, 02:37 PM
#15
Sell the vehicle as off-road use only and let them be the ones who decide to put the off-road vehicle on the road. That way the liability is on them for using the vehicle for unintended purposes.
A shop getting sued is one thing, they can get sued because they are professionals who advertised themselves as such and thus imply that they perform satisfactorily safe work and only install safe parts. This is the reason why tire shops get picky about sticking used **** on cars or performing half *** maybe-it-will-work patch jobs for people too broke to buy a new tire. They feel your pain but also fear the lawyers. The possession of the business license is the key here for also being held liable.
When you sell something like an LS swap used as an individual that isn't the case. They are buying a used thing. Its out of warranty and the maintenance is unknown. If you could get sued for the swap causing an issue then anyone who sold a poorly maintained car with squeaky brakes and worn out ball joints would get sued when the new owners crashed it. It would be the first thing people would go after honestly.
Caveat Emptor is an actual legal defense for this. "let the buyer beware" It's on them to do their homework before handing you money. The courts don't have time for it unless there is actual fraud involved and misrepresentation like faking serial numbers or odometer readings to increase the value.
A shop getting sued is one thing, they can get sued because they are professionals who advertised themselves as such and thus imply that they perform satisfactorily safe work and only install safe parts. This is the reason why tire shops get picky about sticking used **** on cars or performing half *** maybe-it-will-work patch jobs for people too broke to buy a new tire. They feel your pain but also fear the lawyers. The possession of the business license is the key here for also being held liable.
When you sell something like an LS swap used as an individual that isn't the case. They are buying a used thing. Its out of warranty and the maintenance is unknown. If you could get sued for the swap causing an issue then anyone who sold a poorly maintained car with squeaky brakes and worn out ball joints would get sued when the new owners crashed it. It would be the first thing people would go after honestly.
Caveat Emptor is an actual legal defense for this. "let the buyer beware" It's on them to do their homework before handing you money. The courts don't have time for it unless there is actual fraud involved and misrepresentation like faking serial numbers or odometer readings to increase the value.
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99 Black Bird T/A (03-22-2020)
03-21-2020, 02:52 PM
#16
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Yeah, when you're a shop, or it can be proved you're doing this as a side business, then you need to protect yourself from just such a situation. But that's quite different than the private sale of a used car which may or may not have been modified at several points in its history by one or more different owners - among other considerations. LetsTurboSomething made a great post above which really covers the entire scope of this IMO.
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99 Black Bird T/A (03-22-2020)
03-21-2020, 06:00 PM
#18
On The Tree
Thread Starter
.
Buyer acknowledges that the Vehicle is being sold "as is," without warranty, whether express or implied, about the condition of the Vehicle. The Buyer must satisfy itself as to what is offered for sale, and by purchasing will be held to have satisfied itself that the Vehicle is satisfactory in all respects. Any defects and all repairs are the sole responsibility of the Buyer. The Seller neither assumes, nor authorizes any other person or entity to assume on its behalf, any liability in connection with the sale of the Vehicle. The Seller's disclaimers of warranty do not affect the terms or applicability of any warranty from the Vehicle's manufacturer that may be applicable to the Vehicle.