2002_TAWS6

Dont know if this should go on this board or not but I figured it had to do with the engine.

I dynoed the car and found out I had knock/ping but I made great power 329RWHP/344RWTQ not bad at all for having just a catback and an air lid right? (it performed like the car had headers almost ).. well anyway the bad part was my air/fuel ratio : 14.1 at WOT so it was pinging A LOT... Thats when Mike Murrillo looked at me and said "sounds like you have gerbils in there buddy". It wasnt funny at the time

Now if I were to buy a set of NGK TR6 plugs would I be able to run leaner (thus make more power) yet still be safe for having colder plugs?

What are the pros and cons of using the NGK TR6 plugs? Do they last just as long as the stock plugs? Whats the bad side to them?

Also how high can I tune my air/fuel ratio to be to make more power yet be safe to run on those cooler plugs?

Will this be a good thing or a bad thing to do?

NGK TR6 would be what I need right?

help I suck at this.
Any recommendations or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Jabroni

My first question is, "Do you have ported MAF ends on the car?" If so, consider taking them off. They are at times notorious for causing high RPM pinging. Do you have a fuel pressure reading at WOT? Putting a colder plug in the car is not going to remedy this issue. The last thing you want right now is lean anything. You may need to get at least a MAF translator to dial the car in. Tuning may be your only other alternative. Good numbers, though!

jrp

iTrader: (16)

have it tuned right man, dont look for a quick fix.

samz28

lean = melted pistons/valves. Stretch a motor out that runs lean, do a nice 20 miles top-speed run and see what the plugs look like (if they exist) afterwards

you know these cars run richer on the dyno than on the street. If you hook up a portable wideband you can see and log the air fuel when you are going fast, not on rollers..

Colonel

I follow the cooler plug/higher timing advance theory for my 11.1:1 engine. (Not that you can get away with much more timing by doing this.)

However, you should get your mixture down to about 13-13.3:1 and check again. That's where your best power is likely going to be made. Going leaner than that will cause you to lose power regardless of if you get ping or not.

2002_TAWS6

Sorry guys. Big mistake. I forgot to mention another thing that mislead my post a little.

I took my car to the dealership (as soon as I noticed the ping problem) and they replaced the the MAF so I have no knock/ping now. I dynoed the car right after that (didnt know I wasnt supposed to at the time - because new MAF must relearn my driving) and the dyno pulled 314rwhp and 334rwtq ! Thats a loss of 15rwhp and 10rwtq!! and my air/fuel ratio on that pull was 12.3 on WOT (very rich now) . This happened back in september so I dont really know if the MAF relearned my driving now because I didnt dyno it since.

Now that I have seen that the leaner condition made much more power and I know I might be doing a dyno tune soon (to correct the rich airfuel problem also getting headers soon) I thought I could tune it with the colder plugs and make more power without detonating?

In other words can I tune the car to 14.1 again but this time use the colder plugs to make more power yet be safe? I know 14.1 is lean on the stock plugs because they got hot and resulted in premature burning so shouldnt colder NGK TR6 ones solve the problem and make power at the same time?

Or here is an even better question, whats the perfect air/fuel number rate to tune the car for the most power? When does the car make its most power, is it at lean conditions or just right between rich and lean? Also is there a colder plug 'trick' I could do to make more power? Colonel, I noticed you mentioned 13-13.1:1 is that the best rate to make power, but would I be able to make more power with a colder plug and go a little leaner?

Funniest thing was I had "nothing" on my car that would cause me to run lean here are ALL the mods: Corsa exhaust, slp y-pipe, direct flow air lid w/k&n, 160 stat, hypertech fan setting tune set on Power Stat ONLY. Oh yeah dont forget the TB bypass lol.

Hope this post makes a little sense. Im very lost here...

2002_TAWS6

Ok I re-read the Colonels post.

Im guessing there is no such thing as a colder plug trick that would make more power and 13.1 should be the best air/fuel rate regardless of the plugs that Ill be using.

I was told I should run rich after the headers install so maybe I should just do the tuning after the install and have it tuned at 13.1? or umm the number changes if I were to use headers? Also, when you say 13.1 do you mean 13.1 at wideband tuning or should it be 13.1 on the street (since car runs leaner on the street)?

Only thing i can do is tune on dyno.

2002_TAWS6

Jabroni, I dont have a reading on the fuel pressure at WOT. Sorry.

samz28

throw an egt gauge on there if you think 14.1 is cool. The plugs don't lie. Clean one up and put it back, go for a hard run, and pull over immediately (not like 5 minutes later). You'll get an idea of whats going on in the motor. your exhaust valves should be the same color as your plugs if they are ashy/gray that would be a bad thing.

I agree with more fuel more timing on just about any car. You can make more power safely and monitor your detonation, rather than leaning out which i dont think the ecu can detect accurately. Narrowbands are just too slow and too EGT sensitive to measure.

Go get an innovative wideband and do some runs, you'll see whats really going on, on the street. $350, well worth it. I got a lamdaboy a year ago for other (vw) needs and its paid for itself 10x over. If you ever doubt a dyno, plug it in and capture a run, and you'll know the real deal.

Anyone that tunes with the o2 sensors is well playing with fire. Log a o2 sensor run next to the wideband you'll see what i'm talking bout. I used to think that air fuel gauges were worth a crap, they really aren't except to tell you your o2 sensor (or wiring) is mucked up.

2002_TAWS6

I appreciate the long response samz28. I wouldnt be able to monitor my air/fuel delivery on the street. Wish I could but my only choice will have to be the dyno wideband tuning. It would of helped if I had a lap top or at least knew anything about tuning.

The only thing I can do is take it to a tuner and have them do it for me. So I take it the best choice for me is to stay at 13-13.3:1 on the dyno right?

or was it 13-13.3:1 on the street?

please help! You can tell I really suck at this.
I barely understood what samz28 meant.

I dont even know what EGT is

Jabroni

Exhaust Gas Temperature. It's a good way to see how the engine is running internally with regard to the temperature of the exhaust gasses. No big deal about the fuel pressure. I was just throwing some ideas around that may have been causing the leaning out.

Mean Machine

EGT= exhaust gas temperature

2002_TAWS6

1) What can I do to get the air/fuel problem fixed?

2) Do I have to pay $500-600 to get someone to tune it for me on the dyno?

3) Would a MAFT or LS1 Timing Tuner/Nitrous controller work? Is it a plug and play thing or do I have to tune it too?

I dont have a laptop (no ls1edit no autotap nothing).

Car is wasting a lot of gas and not making the power I need.

tell me what can I do to correct this and whats the right air/fuel ratio to expect on a wideband dyno graph at WOT. I want to know what to do and how can I 'check' to see if I got it solved or not.

Now that I know 14.1 is lean either way please help me out by telling me how to solve this.

samz28

1. Laptops cost like $100 sufficient to handle ls1edit
2. Ls1edit is kinda pointless without a wideband
3. tuning without a wideband is pointless .

So if you can't afford the $$ have someone else do it for you

MAFT's and tricking the ecu is an extremely poor way of tuning your car. Guessing will just lead to early engine wear.

Best money spent imo, is having someone who knows how to tune the cars, do it. Unless you like replacing your lump on a regular basis.

We don't drive $2000 cars, shouldn't tune them like we do.

of course feel free to argue, but i think alot of those parts that trick the ecu, are garbage. The Mass air flow plays a major role in MANY tasks, not just air fuel. Timing, emissions, mpg, etc.

More advanced ecu's like the cadillac new ones, and all bosch motronic, use a wideband for the front o2 sensor ($17 retail ,lol) and the tables in the ecu read the wideband for a pretty accurate (to 12:1) air fuel ratio and egt temp. The ecu's can be programmed to self-tune themselves with very high accuracy.

I don't believe the ls1 current ecu's have this feature.. An example is the 1.8T DBW motors from audi/vw. You can spray a 50 shot AFTER the MAF, and the ecu will instantly detect (front wideband) the leanout and begin dumping massive amounts of fuel. Most german cars and many american cars use this now. Honda was one of the first on their lean burn motors back in the day.

The honda lean burn wideband (AKA NTK) was the basis of many early wideband units. Good reading? go to www.techedge.com.au , and look at how a normal o2 sensor compares to a wideband (or semi-wideband). Nernst cell units will be in every car soon. They just allow the ecu to target and ACCURATELY maintain the desired air fuel ratio.

You can say at XX LOAD * XX RPM = 12.2 and it will always meet that goal unless it cannot (fuel limitation).

GM Ecu's are pretty advanced, but the ls1 ecu isn't quite there yet. I'd guess the next gen motors will have this feature since many high end cadillacs already run front widebands integrated into their ecu's.

I don't know alot about the ls1 ecu, but i've done extensive tuning on bosch motronic, and in the end of the day, alot of the ecu's are very much alike.

Do it right, or have someone do it for you. A few hundred now, will save you thousands later on..

Colonel

"3. tuning without a wideband is pointless ."

I disagree. For years I've been tuning without a wideband. I use trap speeds as my guide. Works for me.

samz28

I won't argue. It's a cheap tool ($325 GB), and lets you know where you stand while you're moving. Seems like a given that one that can afford one should get one, though.

you can always go to a dyno, but i've logged several hundreds of hours on my portable wideband, so its paid for itself over and over. Specially nice to have while running the juice. I found i had a bad fuel noid with one. Would randomly lean out, bad solenoid. trap speeds in that case would have probably shown a dead motor had i not caught it.

to each his own.