The truck ignition coil upgrade
04-03-2016, 05:25 AM
#161
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First, I would like to thank all for their interest.
Next I hope to illustrate theory rather than "salesmanship".
The Ignition Coil has TWO major parameters of concern, "turns ratio" and "dwell truncation" needed to answer the above request.
The Voltage Output in KV, if high enough, can "jump" the larger Plug Gap.
This is good for greater HP output when that energy release coincides with engine RPM (time vs piston position).
Thus Arc Duration enters the equation as the RPM item.
The term Joules of energy, "one AMP, one OHM, one Second" is so related.
When the fitted Ignition Coil can provide that output within the needed conditions, its job is done.
Let me know if I am on the correct path, then I will make the comparisons in the above requested items.
Lance
Next I hope to illustrate theory rather than "salesmanship".
The Ignition Coil has TWO major parameters of concern, "turns ratio" and "dwell truncation" needed to answer the above request.
The Voltage Output in KV, if high enough, can "jump" the larger Plug Gap.
This is good for greater HP output when that energy release coincides with engine RPM (time vs piston position).
Thus Arc Duration enters the equation as the RPM item.
The term Joules of energy, "one AMP, one OHM, one Second" is so related.
When the fitted Ignition Coil can provide that output within the needed conditions, its job is done.
Let me know if I am on the correct path, then I will make the comparisons in the above requested items.
Lance
Waiting to read you Lance.
Christian
04-03-2016, 01:48 PM
#162
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I'm sorry, but how does arc duration become an RPM item?
04-17-2016, 12:20 PM
#163
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Piston Position vs Arc Duration I have had the chance to visit the Tesla Museum last week while in Belgrade.
Now home, I have better luck with the internet.
My answer to the first question, "Yes"
The second question is two part, the first part relates to HP.
The best time to introduce the Spark into the cylinder relates to the position of the piston to allow the greatest Horse Power output.
As we know, to early or too late results is less power.
We also know piston position is related in degrees NOT time.
Arc Duration is related in time.
Many, including Ricardo, state that the "spark" must take place in about 30 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
The spark if too short will lower output, if too long will be of little benefit.
We know that at 3000 RPM the crankshaft will take TWICE as long to turn that at 6000 RPM.
Thus the Arc Duration is related to engine RPM.
Finally, the ability to alter Plug Gap is easy and can cause changes in Arc Duration which results in greatest engine power output when correct.
Lance
Now home, I have better luck with the internet.
My answer to the first question, "Yes"
The second question is two part, the first part relates to HP.
The best time to introduce the Spark into the cylinder relates to the position of the piston to allow the greatest Horse Power output.
As we know, to early or too late results is less power.
We also know piston position is related in degrees NOT time.
Arc Duration is related in time.
Many, including Ricardo, state that the "spark" must take place in about 30 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
The spark if too short will lower output, if too long will be of little benefit.
We know that at 3000 RPM the crankshaft will take TWICE as long to turn that at 6000 RPM.
Thus the Arc Duration is related to engine RPM.
Finally, the ability to alter Plug Gap is easy and can cause changes in Arc Duration which results in greatest engine power output when correct.
Lance
04-17-2016, 12:44 PM
#164
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Now home, I have better luck with the internet.
My answer to the first question, "Yes"
The second question is two part, the first part relates to HP.
The best time to introduce the Spark into the cylinder relates to the position of the piston to allow the greatest Horse Power output.
As we know, to early or too late results is less power.
My answer to the first question, "Yes"
The second question is two part, the first part relates to HP.
The best time to introduce the Spark into the cylinder relates to the position of the piston to allow the greatest Horse Power output.
As we know, to early or too late results is less power.
We also know piston position is related in degrees NOT time.
Arc Duration is related in time.
Many, including Ricardo, state that the "spark" must take place in about 30 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
The spark if too short will lower output, if too long will be of little benefit.
We know that at 3000 RPM the crankshaft will take TWICE as long to turn that at 6000 RPM.
Arc Duration is related in time.
Many, including Ricardo, state that the "spark" must take place in about 30 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
The spark if too short will lower output, if too long will be of little benefit.
We know that at 3000 RPM the crankshaft will take TWICE as long to turn that at 6000 RPM.
06-16-2016, 11:23 PM
#165
Yes, but that's the power of placebo. People change their oil, spark plugs or wash their car and it feels better. This is a speculative "upgrade" at best at least with the GM coils, and the small gains/ losses seem more like rounding errors than actual results. 2 mpg? Not a chance. If throwing these on a motor got you 2mpg then you can bet GM would have them on every motor going out the door. If you have to regap your plugs to get the gains then how can you attribute it to the coils? 9 hp on a 500hp motor? That's less than 2%. If you can do 30 pulls and they all show a gain it might be plausible, but one or two here or there plus some anecdotes hardly passes for science.
06-17-2016, 12:08 AM
#166
Yes, but that's the power of placebo. People change their oil, spark plugs or wash their car and it feels better. This is a speculative "upgrade" at best at least with the GM coils, and the small gains/ losses seem more like rounding errors than actual results. 2 mpg? Not a chance. If throwing these on a motor got you 2mpg then you can bet GM would have them on every motor going out the door. If you have to regap your plugs to get the gains then how can you attribute it to the coils? 9 hp on a 500hp motor? That's less than 2%. If you can do 30 pulls and they all show a gain it might be plausible, but one or two here or there plus some anecdotes hardly passes for science.
06-17-2016, 12:17 PM
#167
Staging Lane
I think the biggest thing I've seen mentioned is that people say it improves throttle response, which I could see. A slightly hotter coil would do just that. Especially with the cooling fins which would allow them to run hotter more consistently with less performance drop off when they start getting hot and underhood temps climb, etc. This also explains some saying to get the full benefit you need to increase plug gap. This is not uncommon when running a hotter coil. But yeah, actual hp increases? Probably worth under 2% if that. But improved throttle response and power consistency, I could see it.
06-17-2016, 12:29 PM
#168
I think the biggest thing I've seen mentioned is that people say it improves throttle response, which I could see. A slightly hotter coil would do just that. Especially with the cooling fins which would allow them to run hotter more consistently with less performance drop off when they start getting hot and underhood temps climb, etc. This also explains some saying to get the full benefit you need to increase plug gap. This is not uncommon when running a hotter coil. But yeah, actual hp increases? Probably worth under 2% if that. But improved throttle response and power consistency, I could see it.
06-22-2016, 01:42 PM
#169
Me too!
But, even if they didn't provide a performance upgrade, they are definitely an esthetic enhancement (IMO). I like the fact that the outer housing can be pulled off and powder-coated.
It allowed me to do this:
Which in turn, allowed me to tie it into the rest of the engine that I'm building.
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AnnivSS (02-15-2023)
06-23-2016, 05:11 AM
#170
Me too!
But, even if they didn't provide a performance upgrade, they are definitely an esthetic enhancement (IMO). I like the fact that the outer housing can be pulled off and powder-coated.
It allowed me to do this:
Which in turn, allowed me to tie it into the rest of the engine that I'm building.
But, even if they didn't provide a performance upgrade, they are definitely an esthetic enhancement (IMO). I like the fact that the outer housing can be pulled off and powder-coated.
It allowed me to do this:
Which in turn, allowed me to tie it into the rest of the engine that I'm building.
07-04-2016, 10:38 AM
#172
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Ignition System Design FIRST Chuck71, my orginal work with DIS, Degree Based, was done before you were born, my guess.
The requirement of "30 pulls" to be scientific is understood with my witness of 30 YEARS of "pulls" could add some credibility for my reports.
Most here state "the better engine response" of a coil upgrade is noted by ALL.
Then there are STATEMENTS about rods, pistons, cams as more pertinent power adders, sure but OFF TRACK.
What I STATE is that THE MOST IMPORTANT item for good engine operation AND life is a strong accurate ignition.
In ALL cases this is beneficial in engine life, power, and operating costs.
I do remember this thread is about the GM "truck" coil upgrade.
My purpose here is to add that there are better coils available than GM "truck" coils with greater results seen.
Lance
The requirement of "30 pulls" to be scientific is understood with my witness of 30 YEARS of "pulls" could add some credibility for my reports.
Most here state "the better engine response" of a coil upgrade is noted by ALL.
Then there are STATEMENTS about rods, pistons, cams as more pertinent power adders, sure but OFF TRACK.
What I STATE is that THE MOST IMPORTANT item for good engine operation AND life is a strong accurate ignition.
In ALL cases this is beneficial in engine life, power, and operating costs.
I do remember this thread is about the GM "truck" coil upgrade.
My purpose here is to add that there are better coils available than GM "truck" coils with greater results seen.
Lance
07-05-2016, 09:47 AM
#173
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99891.565 Pantera Hi "SJ" our IGN-1A coil brackets place the IGN-1A coil in the stock location though the Plug Wires, in the kit, have different coil ends as that coil has a HT post not the original A-Bit post.
The Wiring "sub-harnesss" is also included to interface to the stock GM Loom.
We make our version of the GM coils, (585, .etc.) for FireCore with 10% greater output though those coils are a ten AMP coil.
The kit includes FireCore wires and I use the 250 OHM wire as it allows the spark to last longer.
The plug "gap" should be .065" as this coil, IGN-1A, has a much high voltage output.
Hi Paul, Jala,(Jari Lane) has also tested the coils you ask about.
His results, an independent tester, state most GM ten AMP LS coils are 80-105 mj@40KV
His same testing of the IGN-1A coil states 280 mj@ 8.5 m-seconds dwell with 80+Kv and a 25 AMP charge current capacity based on dwell truncation.
Spark Duration is LONG with IGN-1A coils AND this allows for a lower Spark Advance setting.
Lance
The Wiring "sub-harnesss" is also included to interface to the stock GM Loom.
We make our version of the GM coils, (585, .etc.) for FireCore with 10% greater output though those coils are a ten AMP coil.
The kit includes FireCore wires and I use the 250 OHM wire as it allows the spark to last longer.
The plug "gap" should be .065" as this coil, IGN-1A, has a much high voltage output.
Hi Paul, Jala,(Jari Lane) has also tested the coils you ask about.
His results, an independent tester, state most GM ten AMP LS coils are 80-105 mj@40KV
His same testing of the IGN-1A coil states 280 mj@ 8.5 m-seconds dwell with 80+Kv and a 25 AMP charge current capacity based on dwell truncation.
Spark Duration is LONG with IGN-1A coils AND this allows for a lower Spark Advance setting.
Lance
Hi Lance,
Is it the 99891.565 Pantera kit including mounting brackets and harness plug-in to LS1/LS6 you are naming here?
Do you have this kit or similar or better using the OEM 2002 LS6 ECU I can buy?
Christian
07-07-2016, 11:31 PM
#175
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Dont forget about the Wire Hi All
The coil is only as good as the wire that allows it to ARC.
Putting a larger Gap in a spark plug creates Stress on the wire which can some times cause the spark to do what ever it wants which may not be where you want it to go.
Heat also plays another factor in how the current flows threw the wire.
As the heat goes up the resistance goes up.
If you have a weak coil with weak worn sub standard wire, by simply replacing the coil with a higher out put coil you are just giving the current a better reason to do what you want it to do.
By Using a good wire that is well insulated externally from the heat and a good boot that covers the ceramic on the plug, and using dielectric grease, keeping the wires as short as possible. You can make that weak coil perform better. And you can make and IGN1-A into lighting bolt which will give a more complete combustion, or more power, better fuel economy, cleaner emissions, quicker feel. Kind of a poor mans Turbulent Jet Ignition.
The coil is only as good as the wire that allows it to ARC.
Putting a larger Gap in a spark plug creates Stress on the wire which can some times cause the spark to do what ever it wants which may not be where you want it to go.
Heat also plays another factor in how the current flows threw the wire.
As the heat goes up the resistance goes up.
If you have a weak coil with weak worn sub standard wire, by simply replacing the coil with a higher out put coil you are just giving the current a better reason to do what you want it to do.
By Using a good wire that is well insulated externally from the heat and a good boot that covers the ceramic on the plug, and using dielectric grease, keeping the wires as short as possible. You can make that weak coil perform better. And you can make and IGN1-A into lighting bolt which will give a more complete combustion, or more power, better fuel economy, cleaner emissions, quicker feel. Kind of a poor mans Turbulent Jet Ignition.
07-07-2016, 11:42 PM
#176
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after thought If you can get 2% or 10% better fuel economy with a coil but it costs GM more money to do it and the epa does not require it, you can bet they will not put it in production but they will sit on it until they have too
They also have a fleet horse power rating that no one ever touches on. A car manufacture can only produce a certain HP per fleet by the EPA.
So they spread it out another reason not to put a more expensive coil on a smaller car that does not need more power. Don't forget the trucks are the profit of the company.
They also have a fleet horse power rating that no one ever touches on. A car manufacture can only produce a certain HP per fleet by the EPA.
So they spread it out another reason not to put a more expensive coil on a smaller car that does not need more power. Don't forget the trucks are the profit of the company.
07-08-2016, 12:13 AM
#177
Totally Wired, welcome to LS1tech!
This is a thread about ignition coils, mainly the higher output GM round coils with exposed heat sinks. There's a lot of good info throughout the thus far 177 posts.
It is assumed whoever is fooling around with coils has proper ignition wires in good condition.
This is a thread about ignition coils, mainly the higher output GM round coils with exposed heat sinks. There's a lot of good info throughout the thus far 177 posts.
It is assumed whoever is fooling around with coils has proper ignition wires in good condition.
07-08-2016, 03:00 AM
#178
9 Second Club
Wires are a whole other topic/debate.
IMO as long as the wires cannot leak I really dont believe they make a huge difference.
I've seen some 4cyl Toyotas make huge power and they use the skinniest crappy looking wires you've ever seen...but they work.
IMO as long as the wires cannot leak I really dont believe they make a huge difference.
I've seen some 4cyl Toyotas make huge power and they use the skinniest crappy looking wires you've ever seen...but they work.
07-08-2016, 04:49 PM
#179
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I have read all 9 pages of the post. Based on the lack of discussion about it and the pics I have seen I felt it is totally relevant to this topic.
I have spent days in the lab testing coils, spark plugs, wire, ignition systems, at all different boost pressures and temps.
Another thing that has not been discussed is that different stock gm cal files are dwell mapped differently based on the coil that is used for production.
This is a huge gray area for back to back testing and number comparison.
I have spent days in the lab testing coils, spark plugs, wire, ignition systems, at all different boost pressures and temps.
Another thing that has not been discussed is that different stock gm cal files are dwell mapped differently based on the coil that is used for production.
This is a huge gray area for back to back testing and number comparison.
07-08-2016, 05:08 PM
#180
9 Second Club
Any results to share ?
ie same engine, various plugs ?
same engine various wires ?
And fairly sure, to a point anyway more dwell = bigger spark with only caveat being the 585 and/or burning any coil out via too much dwell ?
So a back to back test with same dwell is still a valid test, but not a totally conclusive test.
ie same engine, various plugs ?
same engine various wires ?
And fairly sure, to a point anyway more dwell = bigger spark with only caveat being the 585 and/or burning any coil out via too much dwell ?
So a back to back test with same dwell is still a valid test, but not a totally conclusive test.