What does it take to optimize your 102 FAST??
11-29-2015, 07:51 AM
#85
What type of measurable gains will a ported FAST 102 see over an unported 102? Do you have any before and after dyno graphs?
Also, what is the pricing for this work? I don't see it listed here or on the website.
My new motor has a set of AFR 225 heads. I have not yet purchased an intake.
Thanks!
Also, what is the pricing for this work? I don't see it listed here or on the website.
My new motor has a set of AFR 225 heads. I have not yet purchased an intake.
Thanks!
11-29-2015, 04:58 PM
#86
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How Big is the Engine?
How Big is the Cam, Compression, Headers,
More details and application/chassis would allow better
Estimation on increase from MAMOFICATION/Porting.
How Big is the Cam, Compression, Headers,
More details and application/chassis would allow better
Estimation on increase from MAMOFICATION/Porting.
11-29-2015, 05:12 PM
#87
My combo is in a 69 Camaro.
402 ci, mystery cam around 240/244 108 LSA (that's all I know, and it's a guess at best) Heads are the before mentioned 225 AFR that began life at 72cc, and were milled to 66cc by AFR. I was told the motor is 11.2 cr, but my math comes in at 10.75 cr.
I have not yet purchased headers, but will most likely go with the hooker LS swap long tubes that are available in 1 3/4 or 1 7/8.
Running a stage 5 RPM T56.
Thanks!
402 ci, mystery cam around 240/244 108 LSA (that's all I know, and it's a guess at best) Heads are the before mentioned 225 AFR that began life at 72cc, and were milled to 66cc by AFR. I was told the motor is 11.2 cr, but my math comes in at 10.75 cr.
I have not yet purchased headers, but will most likely go with the hooker LS swap long tubes that are available in 1 3/4 or 1 7/8.
Running a stage 5 RPM T56.
Thanks!
Last edited by Corey R.; 11-29-2015 at 05:28 PM.
11-29-2015, 08:24 PM
#88
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Definitely go with the 1 7/8" Long Tubes!
On that size engine with AFR225s and good size Cam &
Comp. Tony Mamo ported FAST102/102 TB worth at least
12 probably 15+ HP 5000-6500+ RPM and 10-12 lb ft from
3000-6000 RPM plus noticeably crisper throttle response.
Definitely worth the investment 50%+ increase in gain
for roughly~40% increase in cost.
On that size engine with AFR225s and good size Cam &
Comp. Tony Mamo ported FAST102/102 TB worth at least
12 probably 15+ HP 5000-6500+ RPM and 10-12 lb ft from
3000-6000 RPM plus noticeably crisper throttle response.
Definitely worth the investment 50%+ increase in gain
for roughly~40% increase in cost.
12-02-2015, 11:45 AM
#89
Thank you for the reply!
Are there any back to back dyno graphs available that show gains? I'm still not sure what the cost is other than around 40% of a FAST intake which is $950. A $400 port job would be an easier pill to swallow if we could see evidence of its increased output.
Are there any back to back dyno graphs available that show gains? I'm still not sure what the cost is other than around 40% of a FAST intake which is $950. A $400 port job would be an easier pill to swallow if we could see evidence of its increased output.
12-02-2015, 01:01 PM
#90
I still agree with what Brian Tooley shared with me. In order to optimally port a FAST intake, you have to have the heads so you can port match them. He basically stated that he wouldn't even want to port a FAST intake unless he had the heads.
Directly from Brian:
We charge $150-$200 depending on different factors, however without the heads I wouldn't even feel good about doing the job. Not only do we port match the intake exactly to the heads while the base is mocked up on the heads, we also put a scribe line on the intake face of the head to line the intake back up.
We could "take the bumps" out for $100, but I would not recommend taking an appreciable amount of material out of the intake without having the heads in hand. I've had some of these "port matched" intakes that people spent upwards of $500 on and I feel like they would have been better off with the intake just smoothed up since the intake ended up bigger than the heads in places.
Brian
Directly from Brian:
We charge $150-$200 depending on different factors, however without the heads I wouldn't even feel good about doing the job. Not only do we port match the intake exactly to the heads while the base is mocked up on the heads, we also put a scribe line on the intake face of the head to line the intake back up.
We could "take the bumps" out for $100, but I would not recommend taking an appreciable amount of material out of the intake without having the heads in hand. I've had some of these "port matched" intakes that people spent upwards of $500 on and I feel like they would have been better off with the intake just smoothed up since the intake ended up bigger than the heads in places.
Brian
12-03-2015, 12:38 AM
#91
If I know the heads its simply helpful but if I don't I typically ask the customer the width of the inlet opening. There isn't a huge variance out there any way to be perfectly honest.
80% of them are 1.060 - 1.120 wide.....the typical FAST I port I open it to 1.070 - 1.080 wide as I would prefer to err on the smaller side than the larger side. Small mismatches of .030 or even .040 at the opening are of little consequence to power and airflow. Its the thickness of a medium valve spring shim (very nominal) and there is very little air moving on the walls of the port. Its the prep work and approach you take to porting the manifold further in that really unlocks it potential and a few other tricks as well.
I have personally witnessed many dyno tests where we removed manifolds that had horrible mismatches and manifolds that lined up perfectly (during my years testing product for AFR), and its almost scary how little there is to be gained in a perfect port match. While I prefer it to be close (optimal), I also know from experience it makes very little difference on the dyno.....almost disappointingly so because you can point at it and say "Look....that horrible mismatch must be worth 15+ HP".....nope....sometimes the curve is a lay over from an intake that was precisely matched to the opening.
Spending alot of time in a dyno cell is an interesting experience....you occasionally have to "unlearn" some things as you witness results which leave you scratching your head and don't make much sense. When the dyno keeps showing you that's just the way it is....you have no choice but to succumb to the reality of the situation
-Tony
PS.....Richard Holdener....if your reading this now I know you are chuckling as well! (Richard has done extensive dyno testing and seen exactly the same phenomenon)
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Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 12-03-2015 at 12:44 AM.
12-03-2015, 12:09 PM
#92
I understand where Brian Tooleys coming from in the "whole picture point of view" but tons of guys have made proven gains w/ quality Fast port jobs without going anywhere near a head, He brought the same thing up when I inquired on his 220's. Could it be a little more optimal w/ matching the heads...sure.
12-03-2015, 12:26 PM
#93
My new program on these 102's should be worth 30 plus with a really good set of heads! Those are gains more associated with head swaps than intake swaps so the guys that complain about the money invested should really think again....sure its not cheap but the gains are very significant and more than justify the cost of admission.
-Tony
Hi Tony -
Do you have any before/ after Dyno Graphs you could share that show gains? I am a potential customer as my engine has no intake, and I would like to review some test results to see if it is a purchase I would like to make.
Thanks!
Last edited by Corey R.; 12-03-2015 at 12:33 PM.
12-03-2015, 12:33 PM
#94
I understand where Brian Tooleys coming from in the "whole picture point of view" but tons of guys have made proven gains w/ quality Fast port jobs without going anywhere near a head, He brought the same thing up when I inquired on his 220's. Could it be a little more optimal w/ matching the heads...sure.
12-03-2015, 01:00 PM
#95
TECH Veteran
I just seen a 441ci LSX motor with Tooley TFS 245 heads/Fast 102mm by Tooley with a custom grind by him. Needless to say I don't know which is nastier..... the motor or a girl with aids!!
12-03-2015, 02:57 PM
#96
I have to disagree with that...I have helped hundreds of people with ported FAST intakes and most have had excellent results without requiring their heads be present.
If I know the heads its simply helpful but if I don't I typically ask the customer the width of the inlet opening. There isn't a huge variance out there any way to be perfectly honest.
If I know the heads its simply helpful but if I don't I typically ask the customer the width of the inlet opening. There isn't a huge variance out there any way to be perfectly honest.
You should mock up PRC LS6, a stock LS6, and then TFS 235 heads. All three heads have about the same intake port width, however the intake ports are in vastly different locations relative to the intake. The PRC would be to the left compared to the intake, the stock LS6 are surprisingly close, and the TFS 235 are to the right compared to the intake. So in the PRC and TFS 235 examples, there is material that has to be removed from the heads in order to get the intake to properly match. If any material is taken off one side or the other of the intake, then it's only making the intake mismatch the heads even worse.
The next variable is "shrink" of the intake manifold, meaning the intakes don't always have the same bore to bore centerline. If the plastic is injected too hot, or too cold, the shrink rate will change, just like with casting cylinder heads. So when we mock the intake up on even a set of CNC heads, the mismatch from cylinder to cylinder can vary, some dramatically.
I'll attach a 4 year old video of a Fast intake that was exactly matched to a set of CNC AFR 230 heads, in it you'll see this particular intake had too much shrink, like the plastic was too hot when injected, and therefore shrank too much when cooled. I was a blow molding/injection molding tech about a hundred years ago, so I'm familiar with this process.
12-03-2015, 03:05 PM
#97
Because of what Brian told me, I decided that when I do get a FAST 102mm intake for my car, I'm going to pull the heads and have them sent to him so he can properly port/port match the intake to my heads. If I'm going to get the FAST, I might as well do it right and have it ported so that I get the most out of the setup. Brian could have told me that he could port the intake and it would make a difference, but he didn't. He educated me on what needed to be done to optimize the setup when he could have just been a "salesman" and sold me on buying the intake from him and having him port it. For that reason, I will use Brian for all my LS related items I purchase in the future.
12-03-2015, 04:16 PM
#98
I haven't done hundreds, only dozens, and I've been shocked at how far off some of the heads out there are compared to the intake.
You should mock up PRC LS6, a stock LS6, and then TFS 235 heads. All three heads have about the same intake port width, however the intake ports are in vastly different locations relative to the intake. The PRC would be to the left compared to the intake, the stock LS6 are surprisingly close, and the TFS 235 are to the right compared to the intake. So in the PRC and TFS 235 examples, there is material that has to be removed from the heads in order to get the intake to properly match. If any material is taken off one side or the other of the intake, then it's only making the intake mismatch the heads even worse.
The next variable is "shrink" of the intake manifold, meaning the intakes don't always have the same bore to bore centerline. If the plastic is injected too hot, or too cold, the shrink rate will change, just like with casting cylinder heads. So when we mock the intake up on even a set of CNC heads, the mismatch from cylinder to cylinder can vary, some dramatically.
I'll attach a 4 year old video of a Fast intake that was exactly matched to a set of CNC AFR 230 heads, in it you'll see this particular intake had too much shrink, like the plastic was too hot when injected, and therefore shrank too much when cooled. I was a blow molding/injection molding tech about a hundred years ago, so I'm familiar with this process.
Fast 102 port match - YouTube
You should mock up PRC LS6, a stock LS6, and then TFS 235 heads. All three heads have about the same intake port width, however the intake ports are in vastly different locations relative to the intake. The PRC would be to the left compared to the intake, the stock LS6 are surprisingly close, and the TFS 235 are to the right compared to the intake. So in the PRC and TFS 235 examples, there is material that has to be removed from the heads in order to get the intake to properly match. If any material is taken off one side or the other of the intake, then it's only making the intake mismatch the heads even worse.
The next variable is "shrink" of the intake manifold, meaning the intakes don't always have the same bore to bore centerline. If the plastic is injected too hot, or too cold, the shrink rate will change, just like with casting cylinder heads. So when we mock the intake up on even a set of CNC heads, the mismatch from cylinder to cylinder can vary, some dramatically.
I'll attach a 4 year old video of a Fast intake that was exactly matched to a set of CNC AFR 230 heads, in it you'll see this particular intake had too much shrink, like the plastic was too hot when injected, and therefore shrank too much when cooled. I was a blow molding/injection molding tech about a hundred years ago, so I'm familiar with this process.
Fast 102 port match - YouTube
12-04-2015, 06:26 PM
#99
Brian
Checked out that video and while Im sure some heads and some intakes will vary slightly (just because a head is CNC ported doesn't guarantee its right either as you know), even the differences in your particular video were not significant enough to alter the dyno results if we are just focusing on that one side of the intake where it was a little thinner on some of the ports than others.
The real meat and potatoes of the gains lie further into the runner and how that part of the runner transitions into the outlet. What I'm saying is assuming that was all the same, you could compare the "ideal" port match compared to one where the intake was slightly smaller on some of those runners (with the lip going the right way.....intake smaller than port) and I'm confident it wouldn't show squat on the dyno.
Ask Richard Holdener his opinion....I know you guys are also in contact with one another and have worked together on various projects.....his first reaction would be to laugh if he knew I sent you!
I've also tested this on my own projects and was disappointed (but not surprised), that the extra time making it perfect (in some cases opening up the head to meet the manifold), netted me virtually nothing
but it felt better knowing they matched.....LOL
Hope your doing well
-Tony
Checked out that video and while Im sure some heads and some intakes will vary slightly (just because a head is CNC ported doesn't guarantee its right either as you know), even the differences in your particular video were not significant enough to alter the dyno results if we are just focusing on that one side of the intake where it was a little thinner on some of the ports than others.
The real meat and potatoes of the gains lie further into the runner and how that part of the runner transitions into the outlet. What I'm saying is assuming that was all the same, you could compare the "ideal" port match compared to one where the intake was slightly smaller on some of those runners (with the lip going the right way.....intake smaller than port) and I'm confident it wouldn't show squat on the dyno.
Ask Richard Holdener his opinion....I know you guys are also in contact with one another and have worked together on various projects.....his first reaction would be to laugh if he knew I sent you!
I've also tested this on my own projects and was disappointed (but not surprised), that the extra time making it perfect (in some cases opening up the head to meet the manifold), netted me virtually nothing
but it felt better knowing they matched.....LOLHope your doing well
-Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 12-05-2015 at 03:52 AM.
12-04-2015, 07:25 PM
#100
TECH Fanatic
Because of what Brian told me, I decided that when I do get a FAST 102mm intake for my car, I'm going to pull the heads and have them sent to him so he can properly port/port match the intake to my heads. If I'm going to get the FAST, I might as well do it right and have it ported so that I get the most out of the setup. Brian could have told me that he could port the intake and it would make a difference, but he didn't. He educated me on what needed to be done to optimize the setup when he could have just been a "salesman" and sold me on buying the intake from him and having him port it. For that reason, I will use Brian for all my LS related items I purchase in the future.