102/102 stock motor automatic + more inside results inside !!!!
07-28-2011, 08:13 AM
#21
I write checks with my mouth that my ass can't cash
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and by the way who are you 01z28camaro ? where have you seen my car
07-28-2011, 02:39 PM
#22
ohh im not bashing or really complaining dyno numbers mean nothing to me...i mean it went 11.7 with 316 haha...and it gained 7 peak, but with stock cam it kinda falls/flatlines after like 5300ish but it gained decently all the way to 6200 ill try to get a graph posted today,
and by the way who are you 01z28camaro ? where have you seen my car
and by the way who are you 01z28camaro ? where have you seen my car
07-28-2011, 02:57 PM
#23
OP....
Sorry you didn't see the gains we both hoped for but the art of building power is never an exact science and alot of other things can effect the outcome of any particular test. If it were easy everyone would be making big power and working with the handicap if a stock internals car makes it all the more challenging.
Also, I am curious to see the overall power curve because I suspect you might have some decent gains under the curve.
I don't quote numbers from air.....the results in the dyno curve below is from one of my ported 92 mm intakes over an LS1 baseline on a stock LS1 longblock (basically a SI application). No other changes except the intake and TB.....speaking of TB I would be curious what you ran with the new intake. Note how much fatter the entire curve is....even the bottom is much stronger. This was obviously a great move and the customer was thrilled with how the car felt and drove after the swap.
Now keeping in mind that the newer designed ported 102's I do are superior to the ported 90/92 manifolds and I would have hoped you saw at least similar or greater results from the swap. The thing to always keep in mind however is a larger performance advantage is always seen when swapping a higher flowing manifold in front of a deep breathing set of heads. The greater the restriction the baseline manifold represents, the greater the gains from the swap but alot of this is determined by how hard the cylinder heads are pulling on the intake manifold. The better the heads the the larger the restriction the manifold becomes.....its just that simple. A stock internals car takes the least advantage of a high flowing intake just for this reason, however, I have still experienced notably positive results with customers that have stock heads in spite of this fact (most of these customers know they are doing a heads cam combo soon and want a little extra power in the meantime knowing they will be buying a ported FAST to compliment the future heads/cam upgrade).
This comment you made tells us we accomplished something ("lean as hell" means the motor was processing significantly more air!) but for some reason your engine combination (potentially) didn't convert as much of that extra air into additional HP.
I'm curious as to the condition of your valve springs.....if they have some time on them you might have lost any upper RPM gains due to a slight loss of spring pressure and obviously valve control. How smooth was the shape of the power curve past 5500 RPM's?
Did you try leaner and fatter A/F ratios in addition to some timing loops to see if the new combination might have like a different mix of both?
Bottom line....there are no guarantees in this game....some mods work better than they should have on paper and others disappoint. Having spent quite a bit of time on the dyno I cant stress how true that statement is, but sometimes you just have to dig a little deeper to uncover additional power you may not have realized the first time around because other issues masked some of the potential....it's more common than you think I assure you. Like I said....if it were easy
Good luck....lets see what that dyno curve looks like....that will give me a good idea of whether you may be experiencing any valve control related issues and I would like to see the type of gains you saw in the lower/middle part of the curve.
-Tony
Sorry you didn't see the gains we both hoped for but the art of building power is never an exact science and alot of other things can effect the outcome of any particular test. If it were easy everyone would be making big power and working with the handicap if a stock internals car makes it all the more challenging.
Also, I am curious to see the overall power curve because I suspect you might have some decent gains under the curve.
I don't quote numbers from air.....the results in the dyno curve below is from one of my ported 92 mm intakes over an LS1 baseline on a stock LS1 longblock (basically a SI application). No other changes except the intake and TB.....speaking of TB I would be curious what you ran with the new intake. Note how much fatter the entire curve is....even the bottom is much stronger. This was obviously a great move and the customer was thrilled with how the car felt and drove after the swap.
Now keeping in mind that the newer designed ported 102's I do are superior to the ported 90/92 manifolds and I would have hoped you saw at least similar or greater results from the swap. The thing to always keep in mind however is a larger performance advantage is always seen when swapping a higher flowing manifold in front of a deep breathing set of heads. The greater the restriction the baseline manifold represents, the greater the gains from the swap but alot of this is determined by how hard the cylinder heads are pulling on the intake manifold. The better the heads the the larger the restriction the manifold becomes.....its just that simple. A stock internals car takes the least advantage of a high flowing intake just for this reason, however, I have still experienced notably positive results with customers that have stock heads in spite of this fact (most of these customers know they are doing a heads cam combo soon and want a little extra power in the meantime knowing they will be buying a ported FAST to compliment the future heads/cam upgrade).
I'm curious as to the condition of your valve springs.....if they have some time on them you might have lost any upper RPM gains due to a slight loss of spring pressure and obviously valve control. How smooth was the shape of the power curve past 5500 RPM's?
Did you try leaner and fatter A/F ratios in addition to some timing loops to see if the new combination might have like a different mix of both?
Bottom line....there are no guarantees in this game....some mods work better than they should have on paper and others disappoint. Having spent quite a bit of time on the dyno I cant stress how true that statement is, but sometimes you just have to dig a little deeper to uncover additional power you may not have realized the first time around because other issues masked some of the potential....it's more common than you think I assure you. Like I said....if it were easy
Good luck....lets see what that dyno curve looks like....that will give me a good idea of whether you may be experiencing any valve control related issues and I would like to see the type of gains you saw in the lower/middle part of the curve.
-Tony
07-28-2011, 03:03 PM
#24
I write checks with my mouth that my ass can't cash
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tony, i wasent bitching about the intake i was just saying what it did....no my valvesprings are in awesome condition i bought the car from the origional owner with origional tires at 28,000 miles...and now have the car at 32,000 miles....we tried lean/richer we went leaner and the car didnt make any more power its at about 13.0 now...ill work on getting that graph i have to find my paper
07-28-2011, 03:16 PM
#25
TECH Senior Member
Those intake/headers would have made it lean, but not "lean as hell" (which would indicate a LARGE increase would be gained from tuning), something else is wrong...
What AFR and timing did you end up running to see the 7hp/3ftlb increase...?
What AFR and timing did you end up running to see the 7hp/3ftlb increase...?
07-28-2011, 06:47 PM
#29
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its got a ported fast 102mm intake and throttle body. i see a set of 1 7/8 american racing headers and an electric water pump with belt deletes...................................not a bad way to spend $10,000
07-28-2011, 07:28 PM
#32
tony, i wasent bitching about the intake i was just saying what it did....no my valvesprings are in awesome condition i bought the car from the origional owner with origional tires at 28,000 miles...and now have the car at 32,000 miles....we tried lean/richer we went leaner and the car didnt make any more power its at about 13.0 now...ill work on getting that graph i have to find my paper
Look, while a couple of your comments kind of bugged me ("salesman" and others), I understand you were frustrated with the results which is more than understandable with the money you recently invested (btw, welcome to real R&D where when your close to the end of the line you experience more failure than success in search of more power or improving a certain combination).
And speaking of money, with as much as you have invested in this car in an attempt to wring the most out of it, leaving OEM springs in the mix because you bought a clean low mileage vehicle is crazy IMO. How many years old are they?? I would install a set of beehive Comp 918's which I believe will accept all your factory hardware and drop right in.
Even a little more valve control might be worth 5-10 more HP....what if you have a few springs that are weaker than others (lets say hypothetically the car wasn't started for six months and the open springs got weaker). What if they are all weak because the original owner overheated the engine once. There are a ton of unknown variables at play here.
Valve control is everything when it comes to making power....even if you swapped the springs and saw nothing it would be a good move for a guy like yourself looking to optimize every last detail. And guess what....it may turn out to be one of those moves that surprise you on the upside.....you never know but IMO its an overlooked important detail in the equation that can be eliminated for modest dollars and time invested.
Bottom line, the results are what they are and I know I sent you a high quality ported piece with alot of attention to detail. In the future, assuming you move past the stock heads, I have complete confidence this manifold will benefit you a great deal and I do suspect there is a little more power still hiding in this combination.
JMHO....
-Tony
PS....The large tube header may have actually hurt some of your performance by over-scavenging the intake (sucking some of your unburnt air and fuel right out the pipe). It's just another variable that might be worth pursuing....I'm not a big advocate of that sized primary pipe on a heads/cam 346 unless its very aggressive (big cam, solid compression, 7000 plus RPM) making 125+ more HP than what your currently producing.
07-28-2011, 11:03 PM
#33
Tony, his entire goal was to do this with a stock internal car. Swapping springs would mean its not internally stock anymore. And if it was allowed to have springs, then why not a LS6 cam, afterall a LS6 cam is a OEM part? Then if you were going to spend the time to do a cam swap, why do a LS6?? Its endless. I say do a real cam and complete cam swap kit to see 400rwhp and run sloid 10's!!!
07-29-2011, 12:17 AM
#35
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Obviously needs cams/valvetrain to take advantage of this extra air flow. I say keep pushing it with the stock heads to see how far you can go before you have to swap heads.
A cammed untouched long block will make for a good comparison to aftermarket head cars with similiar breather mods.
A cammed untouched long block will make for a good comparison to aftermarket head cars with similiar breather mods.
07-29-2011, 12:40 AM
#36
Without seeing the curve its hard to really hang my hat on valve springs anyways, but knowing how important they are to maintaining precise valve control (and the subsequent improvement that can have on power output), I would have looked into them and cheated a new set of stock springs tighter (for more seat and open pressure) and/or swapped them for 918's rules permitting.
Personally, I dont get all wrapped up in the SI thing.....seems you spend a ton of money if your trying to be competitive for the performance a mild cam only car could easily achieve, but I do appreciate getting the most from the least and pushing things to see how far you can go so at the same time I have to relate to and respect the SI effort as well (and I also subscribe to the "anything worth doing is worth doing right" rule in my life!)
Once the "SI" novelty wore off look out though.....LOL (and for me it wouldn't take long)
Take the same approach to a stealthy hotrod you can modify to your hearts content and try to make BIG power in an understated stealthy package that drives perfectly and gets reasonable fuel economy to boot....that's just as exciting with alot more upside in power output (three digits worth done properly). I love a street sweeper like that and that's also difficult to achieve (and also takes alot of time, money, and well laid plans to pull off).
Cool stuff....
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 07-29-2011 at 12:54 AM.
07-29-2011, 11:35 AM
#38
My ls1 had under 50k miles on it when I bought it. I pulled the cam to find a dead lobe. Over half the the stock valvesprings were abnormally weak and 2 were basically useless according to my head guy.
Might not be it, but as cheap as stock springs are they might be worth replacing for a max effort SI engine IMO.
Might not be it, but as cheap as stock springs are they might be worth replacing for a max effort SI engine IMO.