160 Tstat??? YES or NO??
#22
Something else to consider, is oil temperature. You want the oil temp to get above 210 but stay below 240-250. If it doesn't get above 210, the oil will not burn off the accumulated moisture, which is bad for the oil life and bad for the bearings etc.
Just something to think about.
Just something to think about.
#24
My argument was soley based on keeping things cool for power purposes. What alot of you fail to realize is how hot the coolant will get under WOT. I not argueing about engine life for daily driving, but if you want go there, I can say with my own experience that when I use to daily drive my car with a 160* stat, I never had an issue. I've noticed theres alot of theory in this thread and not alot of practicality.
Barney, I'm glad you havn't had any issues with your 160. I'm just providing a point of view from the design side of things. At the middle of every engine design cycle we put theory to the test with 500 hour thermal cycles, 3000 hour harmonic durability tests and then send vehicles out to Davis Dam and Death Valley to beat the hell out of the cooling system. As it turns out we had a few tstats delivered witht he wrong set points, and I can tell you operating outside our design targets caused us to fail 500 hour thermal cycle. Theory is put ot the test when you offer a warranty on the systems you design.
I'm pretty surpised that you got 50 HP from timing advancesover a 190 tstat. was that with or without your 125 shot? I'd like to compare the 50 hp with the 160 to anyone else that has a similar setup using a stock tstat. That would help a lot of people decide weather the power increase is worth the theoretical risks of going lower.
#25
If running at 160 degrees got you better power, or made the motor last better, don't you think that a group that specializes in extracting as much power out of a v-8, and needs it to last, like, I don't know, NASCAR, thought that running a motor cooler would make more power, than you would never see them boiling over?
Power is heat, and the more heat you pull out of a combustion cycle, the more power is lost through the coolant system, with the one caveat of uncontrolled combustion, ie knock and detonation.
I really don't care if people want to run 160's, hell, run a 130 or 110 degree thermostat. Fact is, if you could run the motor at 300 degrees, and have the metallurgy to handle it, and the fuel to run without pre-ignition, like e85 or diesel, you'll have a much more efficient, and powerful motor.
Again, drink the coolaid, don't drink it, take the blue or red pill, whatever.
Power is heat, and the more heat you pull out of a combustion cycle, the more power is lost through the coolant system, with the one caveat of uncontrolled combustion, ie knock and detonation.
I really don't care if people want to run 160's, hell, run a 130 or 110 degree thermostat. Fact is, if you could run the motor at 300 degrees, and have the metallurgy to handle it, and the fuel to run without pre-ignition, like e85 or diesel, you'll have a much more efficient, and powerful motor.
Again, drink the coolaid, don't drink it, take the blue or red pill, whatever.
#26
I never said my tstat made more power. I was refering to an earlier post about "tuners looking for a few more degrees of timing." And to the comment about a 125 shot , my setup made 531/487 N/A with 33* max timing. It only made 480/464 on 28* so lets do the math here..... I come up with 51 rwhp difference minus the "125 shot".....
#27
If running at 160 degrees got you better power, or made the motor last better, don't you think that a group that specializes in extracting as much power out of a v-8, and needs it to last, like, I don't know, NASCAR, thought that running a motor cooler would make more power, than you would never see them boiling over?
Power is heat, and the more heat you pull out of a combustion cycle, the more power is lost through the coolant system, with the one caveat of uncontrolled combustion, ie knock and detonation.
I really don't care if people want to run 160's, hell, run a 130 or 110 degree thermostat. Fact is, if you could run the motor at 300 degrees, and have the metallurgy to handle it, and the fuel to run without pre-ignition, like e85 or diesel, you'll have a much more efficient, and powerful motor.
Again, drink the coolaid, don't drink it, take the blue or red pill, whatever.
Power is heat, and the more heat you pull out of a combustion cycle, the more power is lost through the coolant system, with the one caveat of uncontrolled combustion, ie knock and detonation.
I really don't care if people want to run 160's, hell, run a 130 or 110 degree thermostat. Fact is, if you could run the motor at 300 degrees, and have the metallurgy to handle it, and the fuel to run without pre-ignition, like e85 or diesel, you'll have a much more efficient, and powerful motor.
Again, drink the coolaid, don't drink it, take the blue or red pill, whatever.
#28
my setup made 531/487 N/A with 33* max timing. It only made 480/464 on 28* so lets do the math here..... I come up with 51 rwhp difference minus the "
It doesn't matter if you have a 160* or 186* thermostat in there, at long periods of WOT the temps will go as high as the cooling system's capacity to cool. Yes the first thermostat will keep the coolant cooler while cruising, thus providing an initial benefit of having a cooler engine. But once the engine temperature catches up and goes past that then it doesn't make a difference what thermostat.
For example, say at WOT your cooling system can keep the engine temperature at a constant 200*.
Car A has a 160* thermostat and car B has the stock 186*.
Initially car A is running 170* coolant temps while car B is running 192*. They both go WOT and within seconds both of those coolant temps will start to creep up and get to the 200* level that the cooling system is capable of delivering. At the end of the run, both of those are running 200* coolant temps regardless of what thermostat they are running, thus both should be able to run the same * of timing. The only benefit of car A is that at the beginning of the run it has cooler temps and can run slightly more timing. But by the end, they are both on an even field.
#29
I never said my tstat made more power. I was refering to an earlier post about "tuners looking for a few more degrees of timing." And to the comment about a 125 shot , my setup made 531/487 N/A with 33* max timing. It only made 480/464 on 28* so lets do the math here..... I come up with 51 rwhp difference minus the "125 shot".....
Here's my guess at the situation:
I assume that you can get 33 degrees of advance as long as the coolant temps stay below some target(lets say 200). If your running 10-11's at the strip , then there isn't enough time for the coolant to get this high, so you can reap the full benifit of advanced timing from the lower starting temp. If however, your using this motor at the track where you are on/off the throttle for 10-15 minutes at a time, temps would probly equalize at 210-220 and knock retard would kick in.
If someone wants to run a 160, lets help them minimize the potential durabuility issues and ensure they keep knock retard from kicking in. The Tstat opens at 160, and is full open generally 20 degrees later(180). To allow your radiator have a crack at controling temps first(and prevent the Tstats from cycling), the first stage fans should come on 10 degrees later(190F) and the 2nd stage at 200. IF your cooling fans and radiator are capable of maintaining roughly 200 degrees, then you could minimize thermal cycling AND prevent knock retard. There would still be the issue of operating outside the designed temp range, but at least people have the information to choose what they want to do. Anyone else have ideas, or experience running these lower stats?
#30
I never said my tstat made more power. I was refering to an earlier post about "tuners looking for a few more degrees of timing." And to the comment about a 125 shot , my setup made 531/487 N/A with 33* max timing. It only made 480/464 on 28* so lets do the math here..... I come up with 51 rwhp difference minus the "125 shot".....
I just don't want people skimming random posts and thinking that simply swapping to a 160 stat will allow them to add a ton of timing on an otherwise stock car.
#31
Here's my guess at the situation:
I assume that you can get 33 degrees of advance as long as the coolant temps stay below some target(lets say 200). If your running 10-11's at the strip , then there isn't enough time for the coolant to get this high, so you can reap the full benifit of advanced timing from the lower starting temp. If however, your using this motor at the track where you are on/off the throttle for 10-15 minutes at a time, temps would probly equalize at 210-220 and knock retard would kick in.
I assume that you can get 33 degrees of advance as long as the coolant temps stay below some target(lets say 200). If your running 10-11's at the strip , then there isn't enough time for the coolant to get this high, so you can reap the full benifit of advanced timing from the lower starting temp. If however, your using this motor at the track where you are on/off the throttle for 10-15 minutes at a time, temps would probly equalize at 210-220 and knock retard would kick in.
Maybe that is great for a single 10-12 second blast down the strip, or a single dyno pull to get a peak reading for bragging rights.
BUT, in the real world (daily street use, open tracking/road course use) I'd rather NOT have that peak just to be able to claim power superiority, and have more longevity/reliability for the LONG RUN.
(But I guess I'm the exception on here, as I got rid of my UD crank pulley/damper as I thought it was just NOT worth the very few rwhp it was supposedly good for. This car currently has 160K miles on it and I'm going for 500K+! )