critique my ls1 to ls6 conversion and upgrades
05-27-2015, 08:59 AM
#21
i ran a 230/232 in my ls6 on a 114 lsa and besides the lobe at idle the thing drove 95% like stock. Keeping overlap down is key to how its going to drive anything under 4 will driive like the car came that way with a good tune of course. Overlap is (intake+exhaust)/2-(2*lsa)
I would look into eps cams, Geoff is awesome to talk to if you give him a call as well as Martin @ tick or Kip@cam motion. I think a 222/226 on a 113 giving -2 overlap or a 226/230 on a 113 for a little bit bigger with 2 degrees overlap would be a great addition. Both will be beehive friendly but you will not be able to use gm springs. Something like a pac 1218/1518 or psi1511 would be a fine choice
I would look into eps cams, Geoff is awesome to talk to if you give him a call as well as Martin @ tick or Kip@cam motion. I think a 222/226 on a 113 giving -2 overlap or a 226/230 on a 113 for a little bit bigger with 2 degrees overlap would be a great addition. Both will be beehive friendly but you will not be able to use gm springs. Something like a pac 1218/1518 or psi1511 would be a fine choice
05-27-2015, 10:21 AM
#22
i ran a 230/232 in my ls6 on a 114 lsa and besides the lobe at idle the thing drove 95% like stock. Keeping overlap down is key to how its going to drive anything under 4 will driive like the car came that way with a good tune of course. Overlap is (intake+exhaust)/2-(2*lsa)
I would look into eps cams, Geoff is awesome to talk to if you give him a call as well as Martin @ tick or Kip@cam motion. I think a 222/226 on a 113 giving -2 overlap or a 226/230 on a 113 for a little bit bigger with 2 degrees overlap would be a great addition. Both will be beehive friendly but you will not be able to use gm springs. Something like a pac 1218/1518 or psi1511 would be a fine choice
I would look into eps cams, Geoff is awesome to talk to if you give him a call as well as Martin @ tick or Kip@cam motion. I think a 222/226 on a 113 giving -2 overlap or a 226/230 on a 113 for a little bit bigger with 2 degrees overlap would be a great addition. Both will be beehive friendly but you will not be able to use gm springs. Something like a pac 1218/1518 or psi1511 would be a fine choice
05-27-2015, 12:08 PM
#23
Overlap is what largely determines how it will drive. Overlap is the amount of time the intake and exhaust valves are open together. The longer that occurs the more low end suffers because your pushing out un burnt fuel. That causes low cylinder pressure, poor fuel economy and lazy throttle response. Ya know all the things associated with big cams? But up top evacuating the cylinder like that makes screaming power.
Keeping overlap down does the opposite. In an ls1 0-4 degrees, mine had 3, will drive like stock with a good tune. If it doesn't find a better tuner plain and simple. 4-8 will drive close to stock but as you get closer to 8 it gets worse. Anything over 8 and no matter what tune you have you'll feel it.
So in essence before you go making claims like that which you know little about do some reading, and drive some cars. Duration Isnt the whole picture when it comes to drive ability.
But being that you know so much tell me how many cams you've driven like that an what specs they were?
05-27-2015, 02:55 PM
#24
Oh it ran hard as hell. But it did drive like stock. Just because you see duration doesn't mean it's going to drive terrible.
Overlap is what largely determines how it will drive. Overlap is the amount of time the intake and exhaust valves are open together. The longer that occurs the more low end suffers because your pushing out un burnt fuel. That causes low cylinder pressure, poor fuel economy and lazy throttle response. Ya know all the things associated with big cams? But up top evacuating the cylinder like that makes screaming power.
Keeping overlap down does the opposite. In an ls1 0-4 degrees, mine had 3, will drive like stock with a good tune. If it doesn't find a better tuner plain and simple. 4-8 will drive close to stock but as you get closer to 8 it gets worse. Anything over 8 and no matter what tune you have you'll feel it.
So in essence before you go making claims like that which you know little about do some reading, and drive some cars. Duration Isnt the whole picture when it comes to drive ability.
But being that you know so much tell me how many cams you've driven like that an what specs they were?
Overlap is what largely determines how it will drive. Overlap is the amount of time the intake and exhaust valves are open together. The longer that occurs the more low end suffers because your pushing out un burnt fuel. That causes low cylinder pressure, poor fuel economy and lazy throttle response. Ya know all the things associated with big cams? But up top evacuating the cylinder like that makes screaming power.
Keeping overlap down does the opposite. In an ls1 0-4 degrees, mine had 3, will drive like stock with a good tune. If it doesn't find a better tuner plain and simple. 4-8 will drive close to stock but as you get closer to 8 it gets worse. Anything over 8 and no matter what tune you have you'll feel it.
So in essence before you go making claims like that which you know little about do some reading, and drive some cars. Duration Isnt the whole picture when it comes to drive ability.
But being that you know so much tell me how many cams you've driven like that an what specs they were?
OP is looking for stock like performance, that means a stock like cam and a stock like converter, not the exact opposite. Pretty sure everyone on this forum can agree that once you get above 220 in duration on both sides of the cam that your overlap is enough to make it quite noticeable that there is a cam present. Not to mention that's basically the limit you can go before you have to run a stall converter. GT2-3 is the closest thing hes going to get to a stock like cam (similar to the LS6 stock cam) that is going to give him a decent 30hp bump improvement over running the stocker, and give him all the qualities he has requested in his posts. A 232/234 or even a 222/226 cam isnt going to give him that, that's all im saying. Up to the OP to decide which direction he wants to go, just had to call out that flat out lie about that cam. Car might be fast as **** I am willing to bet, but no one is going "hey this car drives like its stock".
05-27-2015, 06:06 PM
#25
Last car I drove was a 01 camaro with a 234/238 cam with a fast102 setup and 4000 stall, and it drove like ***. And by *** I mean the around town driving was terrible. The idle on a cam like that is very choppy, you suffer from much lower engine vacuum, even though its probably not low enough to actually cause major idle issues, but there will be a noticeable difference in braking power, and a significant drop in mpg especially after you match it up to an appropriate stall. Your cam im assuming its a cam motion 232/234, has at least 60 degrees over overlap, can't change the facts of that, and it certain has no where near the qualities it had when it had a stock cam in it, that's for sure.
OP is looking for stock like performance, that means a stock like cam and a stock like converter, not the exact opposite. Pretty sure everyone on this forum can agree that once you get above 220 in duration on both sides of the cam that your overlap is enough to make it quite noticeable that there is a cam present. Not to mention that's basically the limit you can go before you have to run a stall converter. GT2-3 is the closest thing hes going to get to a stock like cam (similar to the LS6 stock cam) that is going to give him a decent 30hp bump improvement over running the stocker, and give him all the qualities he has requested in his posts. A 232/234 or even a 222/226 cam isnt going to give him that, that's all im saying. Up to the OP to decide which direction he wants to go, just had to call out that flat out lie about that cam. Car might be fast as **** I am willing to bet, but no one is going "hey this car drives like its stock".
OP is looking for stock like performance, that means a stock like cam and a stock like converter, not the exact opposite. Pretty sure everyone on this forum can agree that once you get above 220 in duration on both sides of the cam that your overlap is enough to make it quite noticeable that there is a cam present. Not to mention that's basically the limit you can go before you have to run a stall converter. GT2-3 is the closest thing hes going to get to a stock like cam (similar to the LS6 stock cam) that is going to give him a decent 30hp bump improvement over running the stocker, and give him all the qualities he has requested in his posts. A 232/234 or even a 222/226 cam isnt going to give him that, that's all im saying. Up to the OP to decide which direction he wants to go, just had to call out that flat out lie about that cam. Car might be fast as **** I am willing to bet, but no one is going "hey this car drives like its stock".
I'm not going to clog up the op's thread with banter like this. OP just dont listen to this guy who obviously has very little experience. Call up some sponsors like I said and ask around. I'm almost positive geoff will recommend something in the 222/226 range, same with the others. I'm waiting for all your "others" to chime in about that 220 thing.
Last edited by redbird555; 05-27-2015 at 06:13 PM. Reason: spelling
05-27-2015, 06:56 PM
#26
So you had a cam likely with close to 12 degrees overlap and are comparing to how that drove with a car that has 3 degrees? LMAO anyone who knows about cams would stop right there. You most likely didnt have a great tune either if it was that awful. And since you got my cam wrong even when I listed it in my post as a 230/232 I'll take it you didnt understand much of anything else in there.
I'm not going to clog up the op's thread with banter like this. OP just dont listen to this guy who obviously has very little experience. Call up some sponsors like I said and ask around. I'm almost positive geoff will recommend something in the 222/226 range, same with the others. I'm waiting for all your "others" to chime in about that 220 thing.
I'm not going to clog up the op's thread with banter like this. OP just dont listen to this guy who obviously has very little experience. Call up some sponsors like I said and ask around. I'm almost positive geoff will recommend something in the 222/226 range, same with the others. I'm waiting for all your "others" to chime in about that 220 thing.
05-27-2015, 09:48 PM
#27
Come on guys! I don't want this to be a cam fight. I don't want a big cam, big power numbers is not what I'm looking for, If I want high power I will go FI. My bigger concern is getting a more efficient valve train with the right parts so that I won't have to go and tear down the heads later on down the road. I'm pretty set on the ls6 cam but the GT2-3 does look nice as it really is just a bumped up ls6 but I don't want to go anymore than that.
Any opinions on the trunion upgrade? roller rockers?
I think I might just spend an extra $100 over the LS2 chain and get a single roller timing chain from Cloyes, I like the efficiency gain and better gears, I know its probably overkill but this won't effect drivability.
Any opinions on the trunion upgrade? roller rockers?
I think I might just spend an extra $100 over the LS2 chain and get a single roller timing chain from Cloyes, I like the efficiency gain and better gears, I know its probably overkill but this won't effect drivability.
05-27-2015, 10:55 PM
#28
Come on guys! I don't want this to be a cam fight. I don't want a big cam, big power numbers is not what I'm looking for, If I want high power I will go FI. My bigger concern is getting a more efficient valve train with the right parts so that I won't have to go and tear down the heads later on down the road. I'm pretty set on the ls6 cam but the GT2-3 does look nice as it really is just a bumped up ls6 but I don't want to go anymore than that.
Any opinions on the trunion upgrade? roller rockers?
I think I might just spend an extra $100 over the LS2 chain and get a single roller timing chain from Cloyes, I like the efficiency gain and better gears, I know its probably overkill but this won't effect drivability.
Any opinions on the trunion upgrade? roller rockers?
I think I might just spend an extra $100 over the LS2 chain and get a single roller timing chain from Cloyes, I like the efficiency gain and better gears, I know its probably overkill but this won't effect drivability.
05-28-2015, 12:05 AM
#29
I know exactly what your trying to do, personally I think you'd be very happy with the GT2-3, just do some googling and have a look at the results and read some threads, plenty of information out there on it. The cloye's LS2 single chain set C3220 is the one they consider the upgrade over the LS1, they do make double roller sets but they are much more expensive. Like i said, your cam position sensor setup is going to dictate which gears you can use. Single chain by itself is CLOYES Part # 94205 (Center; Links: 60; Pitch: 3/8 In.; Rollers: Single; Timing Marks: 0). I used a GMPP chain my build, PN 12646386 which BTR sells for 45 dollars. Highly doubt you will have issues with timing chains though honestly. Depending on your budget, honestly don't think roller rockers are needed.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...8#.VWae83nbLIU
Its a 1x so it should just work with my current cam position sensor right?
so no roller rocker arms? something like the compcams High Energy Die Cast Aluminum Roller Rocker Arms only cost $170 for the whole set seems like a pretty good deal.
05-28-2015, 12:18 AM
#30
I was thinking something like this timing chain
http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...8#.VWae83nbLIU
Its a 1x so it should just work with my current cam position sensor right?
so no roller rocker arms? something like the compcams High Energy Die Cast Aluminum Roller Rocker Arms only cost $170 for the whole set seems like a pretty good deal.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...8#.VWae83nbLIU
Its a 1x so it should just work with my current cam position sensor right?
so no roller rocker arms? something like the compcams High Energy Die Cast Aluminum Roller Rocker Arms only cost $170 for the whole set seems like a pretty good deal.
Roller rockers, that's debatable honestly. In my personal opinion if youre trying to budget your build then there's no reason to change them out unless you don't trust the stock rockers for what you are going to be using the car for. Unless your using it to change ratio, it would be more as a sense of added insurance for constant abuse over the stock ones. I have never encountered personally a case where the stock rocker arms had trunnion bearing failures.
05-28-2015, 07:43 AM
#32
Come on guys! I don't want this to be a cam fight. I don't want a big cam, big power numbers is not what I'm looking for, If I want high power I will go FI. My bigger concern is getting a more efficient valve train with the right parts so that I won't have to go and tear down the heads later on down the road. I'm pretty set on the ls6 cam but the GT2-3 does look nice as it really is just a bumped up ls6 but I don't want to go anymore than that.
Any opinions on the trunion upgrade? roller rockers?
I think I might just spend an extra $100 over the LS2 chain and get a single roller timing chain from Cloyes, I like the efficiency gain and better gears, I know its probably overkill but this won't effect drivability.
Any opinions on the trunion upgrade? roller rockers?
I think I might just spend an extra $100 over the LS2 chain and get a single roller timing chain from Cloyes, I like the efficiency gain and better gears, I know its probably overkill but this won't effect drivability.
I had the ls1 cam, ls6 cam, then the f13 and now an ls3. I know how each one drives trust me on that. The ls6 cam unless you get it for free just isnt worth it imo. You will feel a modest loss in low end torque and gain 15hp or so up from 4k to redline. The gt2-3 is better still but my point being is that if you're going to do that give some sponsors a car and tell them what your goals are, its free after all. The gt2-3 isnt a bad grind but it is 10 years old and cam technology has progressed quite a lot in those years.
I'm not saying to get a big cam but dont sell yourself short on a cam that will have the same manners as a little larger one but not make near the same power and tq.
This was my 230/232 .595/.585 lift f13 in my car with a 33lb clutch which doesnt help driveability at all. This is all done in neighborhoods which is where it should drive terrible according to some posts above. Not saying you should go this big but this is how well you can make a decent sized cam drive with a good tune. I would still recommend a 222/226 on a 114 or a 218/226 if you want it to be a little tamer.
Also if you are going to go with RR's which I would only recommend if you're willing to spend more $$. The cheap ones are very heavy over the valve which will cause control issues. If you go with RR's you will need better springs and better pushrods plain and simple. Going to RR's I would go with the newest gen of YT ultralites to keep the weight and MOI down of the rocker. Then spring choice is going to depend on what cam you get, not the duration so much as the lobe type. The pushrods will need to be 11/32 at least. Larger wall 5/16 arent much stronger than the standard .080 wall.
My personal recommendation is save the money from the timing set and go with a standard ls2 unless you want to degree the cam. Then spend the extra 80 bucks from that and buy some 11/32 pushrods. Deflection even on 5/16 rods is a very real thing and will help with valvetrain stability and free up a few ponies on a cam only car. Or if you have the cash just do both.
As for a stall, you really need one with bolt ons imo its the best bang for the buck mod. It will also help with driveability of any cam as it has more slip down low. Circle D offers a nice budget unit in the 2600 range for around 400 bucks which is hard to beat.http://circledspecialties.com/p-6-gm...converter.aspx
Last edited by redbird555; 05-28-2015 at 07:56 AM.
05-28-2015, 12:26 PM
#33
That's an adjustable timing chain set, thats why it's so expensive, its not different then the C3220 other then its an adjustable gear. That's your choice if you want to go that route. Is your cam position sensor on your timing cover on that 02? If so that should be the correct gear, it has the 1x pickup on it, should match it perfectly.
Roller rockers, that's debatable honestly. In my personal opinion if youre trying to budget your build then there's no reason to change them out unless you don't trust the stock rockers for what you are going to be using the car for. Unless your using it to change ratio, it would be more as a sense of added insurance for constant abuse over the stock ones. I have never encountered personally a case where the stock rocker arms had trunnion bearing failures.
Roller rockers, that's debatable honestly. In my personal opinion if youre trying to budget your build then there's no reason to change them out unless you don't trust the stock rockers for what you are going to be using the car for. Unless your using it to change ratio, it would be more as a sense of added insurance for constant abuse over the stock ones. I have never encountered personally a case where the stock rocker arms had trunnion bearing failures.
yeah I think I might just stay with stock and upgrade the trunnion bearings. thanks!
The timing chain is up to you, you wont have any problems with the ls2 but it is security. The 1x cam gear will work fine for you just stay away from the 4x. The trunion upgrade is a great addition for stock rockers. Roller rockers would gain a small amount but not needed and you would need heavier springs.
I had the ls1 cam, ls6 cam, then the f13 and now an ls3. I know how each one drives trust me on that. The ls6 cam unless you get it for free just isnt worth it imo. You will feel a modest loss in low end torque and gain 15hp or so up from 4k to redline. The gt2-3 is better still but my point being is that if you're going to do that give some sponsors a car and tell them what your goals are, its free after all. The gt2-3 isnt a bad grind but it is 10 years old and cam technology has progressed quite a lot in those years.
I'm not saying to get a big cam but dont sell yourself short on a cam that will have the same manners as a little larger one but not make near the same power and tq.
This was my 230/232 .595/.585 lift f13 in my car with a 33lb clutch which doesnt help driveability at all. This is all done in neighborhoods which is where it should drive terrible according to some posts above. Not saying you should go this big but this is how well you can make a decent sized cam drive with a good tune. I would still recommend a 222/226 on a 114 or a 218/226 if you want it to be a little tamer.
Clutch driving 2 - YouTube
Also if you are going to go with RR's which I would only recommend if you're willing to spend more $$. The cheap ones are very heavy over the valve which will cause control issues. If you go with RR's you will need better springs and better pushrods plain and simple. Going to RR's I would go with the newest gen of YT ultralites to keep the weight and MOI down of the rocker. Then spring choice is going to depend on what cam you get, not the duration so much as the lobe type. The pushrods will need to be 11/32 at least. Larger wall 5/16 arent much stronger than the standard .080 wall.
My personal recommendation is save the money from the timing set and go with a standard ls2 unless you want to degree the cam. Then spend the extra 80 bucks from that and buy some 11/32 pushrods. Deflection even on 5/16 rods is a very real thing and will help with valvetrain stability and free up a few ponies on a cam only car. Or if you have the cash just do both.
As for a stall, you really need one with bolt ons imo its the best bang for the buck mod. It will also help with driveability of any cam as it has more slip down low. Circle D offers a nice budget unit in the 2600 range for around 400 bucks which is hard to beat.http://circledspecialties.com/p-6-gm...converter.aspx
I had the ls1 cam, ls6 cam, then the f13 and now an ls3. I know how each one drives trust me on that. The ls6 cam unless you get it for free just isnt worth it imo. You will feel a modest loss in low end torque and gain 15hp or so up from 4k to redline. The gt2-3 is better still but my point being is that if you're going to do that give some sponsors a car and tell them what your goals are, its free after all. The gt2-3 isnt a bad grind but it is 10 years old and cam technology has progressed quite a lot in those years.
I'm not saying to get a big cam but dont sell yourself short on a cam that will have the same manners as a little larger one but not make near the same power and tq.
This was my 230/232 .595/.585 lift f13 in my car with a 33lb clutch which doesnt help driveability at all. This is all done in neighborhoods which is where it should drive terrible according to some posts above. Not saying you should go this big but this is how well you can make a decent sized cam drive with a good tune. I would still recommend a 222/226 on a 114 or a 218/226 if you want it to be a little tamer.
Clutch driving 2 - YouTube
Also if you are going to go with RR's which I would only recommend if you're willing to spend more $$. The cheap ones are very heavy over the valve which will cause control issues. If you go with RR's you will need better springs and better pushrods plain and simple. Going to RR's I would go with the newest gen of YT ultralites to keep the weight and MOI down of the rocker. Then spring choice is going to depend on what cam you get, not the duration so much as the lobe type. The pushrods will need to be 11/32 at least. Larger wall 5/16 arent much stronger than the standard .080 wall.
My personal recommendation is save the money from the timing set and go with a standard ls2 unless you want to degree the cam. Then spend the extra 80 bucks from that and buy some 11/32 pushrods. Deflection even on 5/16 rods is a very real thing and will help with valvetrain stability and free up a few ponies on a cam only car. Or if you have the cash just do both.
As for a stall, you really need one with bolt ons imo its the best bang for the buck mod. It will also help with driveability of any cam as it has more slip down low. Circle D offers a nice budget unit in the 2600 range for around 400 bucks which is hard to beat.http://circledspecialties.com/p-6-gm...converter.aspx
where's a good place to pickup some 11/32 pushrods? they are not very common, you think they would be necessary for a such a small cam? I will be revving it pretty high so some piece of mind is nice.
That is a pretty good price for a stall, u think that would be good for autocross? any possible smaller stalls around the same stall range available?
05-29-2015, 08:48 AM
#34
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I'm pretty set on the ls6 cam but the GT2-3 does look nice as it really is just a bumped up ls6 but I don't want to go anymore than that.
Any opinions on the trunion upgrade? roller rockers?
I think I might just spend an extra $100 over the LS2 chain and get a single roller timing chain from Cloyes, I like the efficiency gain and better gears, I know its probably overkill but this won't effect drivability.
Any opinions on the trunion upgrade? roller rockers?
I think I might just spend an extra $100 over the LS2 chain and get a single roller timing chain from Cloyes, I like the efficiency gain and better gears, I know its probably overkill but this won't effect drivability.
I say yes on the trunion upgrade- I wish I would have done it at install althought everything is fine currently without it but my plans are to do it. I recommend the BTR set. Regarding the rockers, keep your stock ones. Others have gone to aftermarket and had problems. I asked the same questions you did to Martin@Tick. He told me to do the trunion and keep the stock rockers with my cam.
Chain is your choice. If I were you and because you are doing auto-cross I would do the LS2 chain and spend some money on suspension. Your cam is so mild it is over kill but completely up to you. Hope that helps.
05-29-2015, 03:49 PM
#36
From these choices I would do the GT2-3 cam and tuned correctly will feel like stock, it is minimally bigger than the LS6 but have heard good things about it from others who have it.
I say yes on the trunion upgrade- I wish I would have done it at install althought everything is fine currently without it but my plans are to do it. I recommend the BTR set. Regarding the rockers, keep your stock ones. Others have gone to aftermarket and had problems. I asked the same questions you did to Martin@Tick. He told me to do the trunion and keep the stock rockers with my cam.
Chain is your choice. If I were you and because you are doing auto-cross I would do the LS2 chain and spend some money on suspension. Your cam is so mild it is over kill but completely up to you. Hope that helps.
I say yes on the trunion upgrade- I wish I would have done it at install althought everything is fine currently without it but my plans are to do it. I recommend the BTR set. Regarding the rockers, keep your stock ones. Others have gone to aftermarket and had problems. I asked the same questions you did to Martin@Tick. He told me to do the trunion and keep the stock rockers with my cam.
Chain is your choice. If I were you and because you are doing auto-cross I would do the LS2 chain and spend some money on suspension. Your cam is so mild it is over kill but completely up to you. Hope that helps.
Yup set on stock rockers and Trunion... hopefully stockers are not very worn out, I have 101k on this engine.
yeah It looks like im just going to do the cloyes c2330 for $30... didn't realize it was a roller chain that came with new sprockets.
Thanks for all your help
Thanks for your help!
So it looks like I have pretty much all my parts sorted out. I guess i'll rock my stock stall unless I can find more info on stalls for autocross.... nobody races with autos
05-30-2015, 12:07 AM
#39
06-04-2015, 12:30 PM
#40
If you'd like a custom grind like BBATCAR has that I had ground for him, normally we can get custom cams to customers in no more than 5-7 business days. The GT2-3 will do what you're after no doubt, but in instances like these sometimes a custom cam can be a better fit.
I am by NO means one of those, "You have to use a custom cam for everything, shelf cams suck," type of cam guys/vendors. I tell customers all the time, "Your engine has no clue whether the cam you're putting into it, is a shelf cam or a custom cam."
I'd be glad to help any way I can.
I am by NO means one of those, "You have to use a custom cam for everything, shelf cams suck," type of cam guys/vendors. I tell customers all the time, "Your engine has no clue whether the cam you're putting into it, is a shelf cam or a custom cam."
I'd be glad to help any way I can.