Intake Manifold Flow Tests: LS1, LS6, TBSS, BBK, Dorman LS2, 102 Fast LSXRT & more
03-29-2019, 01:37 AM
#661
come to think of it.....at 200 psi it did rip me a new one
from their website.....AFM is a controllable machining process
You can control the media flow rate and pressure, volume, and type of media, media temperature, and, consequently, the amount of material that is removed. For any given application, the surface finish improvement, radius generation and/or stock removal can be determined and monitored to ensure repeatability.
from their website.....AFM is a controllable machining process
You can control the media flow rate and pressure, volume, and type of media, media temperature, and, consequently, the amount of material that is removed. For any given application, the surface finish improvement, radius generation and/or stock removal can be determined and monitored to ensure repeatability.
Last edited by sjsingle1; 03-29-2019 at 01:50 AM.
03-29-2019, 10:41 PM
#662
got the reply from extrude hone.........NO they dont do plastic intakes
i think this a missed opportunity.......given the use of composites by OEMs and aftermarket in intake manufacturing compared to conventional manufacturing materials......this is a market begging for expansion.....i think retooling the process for plastic is doable and should be fairly easy .....who wants to help me break this market wide open and start doing it?
i think a dorman Ls2 after extruding would be a killer intake
i think this a missed opportunity.......given the use of composites by OEMs and aftermarket in intake manufacturing compared to conventional manufacturing materials......this is a market begging for expansion.....i think retooling the process for plastic is doable and should be fairly easy .....who wants to help me break this market wide open and start doing it?
i think a dorman Ls2 after extruding would be a killer intake
03-29-2019, 11:05 PM
#663
TECH Senior Member
Unless a certain amount of pressure is maintained, you don't get the material removal that is desired. Plastic manifolds can't handle those pressures. I bet that's the reason ExtrudeHone does not do plastic manifolds
03-30-2019, 12:46 AM
#664
i would think greater pressure just removes more material faster.....and aluminum would need greater pressure to exert more friction and thus re-shape intake walls
at a lower pressure with a coarser grade abrasive i think would be the solution to plastic intake walls
i should go back to school get a engineering degree ....liberal arts does not cut it !
at a lower pressure with a coarser grade abrasive i think would be the solution to plastic intake walls
i should go back to school get a engineering degree ....liberal arts does not cut it !
03-30-2019, 11:52 AM
#665
Extrude-hone probably is missing an opportunity.
There was some extrude hone discussion here in " Who has ported their LS6 intake?" Short version, the Nylon 66/Plastic was said to be too brittle for the process.
How much boost does it take to split a LS6 or Fast intake?
Definitely think the Dorman LS2 would be the big beneficiary.
The market for porting composite manifolds could be big. Even if a fixture is required, it would seem the plastic would cut quickly and be done in far less time than a metal manifold. It does really make one wonder what could be done with an aluminum LS1 BBK intake.
There was some extrude hone discussion here in " Who has ported their LS6 intake?" Short version, the Nylon 66/Plastic was said to be too brittle for the process.
How much boost does it take to split a LS6 or Fast intake?
Definitely think the Dorman LS2 would be the big beneficiary.
The market for porting composite manifolds could be big. Even if a fixture is required, it would seem the plastic would cut quickly and be done in far less time than a metal manifold. It does really make one wonder what could be done with an aluminum LS1 BBK intake.
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 03-30-2019 at 04:34 PM.
04-06-2019, 05:43 PM
#668
Nylon is THE material used in 99% of auto intakes globally for a reason. The processes we are trying to implement to change flow disturbance/restriction are just more challenging with composite materials than homogeneous material metal intakes.
04-10-2019, 04:10 PM
#670
TECH Senior Member
04-15-2019, 04:59 PM
#673
Summary of my impressions from flow testing, DynoJet testing, and observations over the last 20+ years for NA applications. Assuming the parts are correctly matched for horsepower. Others may view differently & I respect that
From worse LS4 to first ported MSD.
LS4 - you know it's garbage if an LS1 intake out flows and out powers it.
LS1 - With or without EGR, same results NA, good for base line testing, works well for forced induction or NOS. I'd favor the non-EGR LS1, it looks better and probably less likely to leak under boost. If it blows up - get another one for $50 to $75. Non-EGR version easily confused with an LS6 at a glance. LS1 has curved bottom. LS6 is flat.
Dorman LS6 - Sounds promising, however it's sometimes more of a 73mm snout opening intake than a 78mm stock size snout. You can hog out the snout to improve. Out of the box it's not what we want for an LS6 replacement. Dorman definitely got noticed with this offering. Better Dorman stuff is on down the list.
LS2 intake - Good design & 90mm snout. You know FAST probably soiled themselves at first glance. This should been, could have been, would have been the bomb - if intake didn't leak air between runners which is bad for NA. Forced induction all good until the sonic welded seams fail and it splits
LS6 - Excellent proven factory intake that's affordable used. New in 2002 for $400 and still see the listed in Marketplace for $350 to $400. Few parts hold value for over 15 years. The intake will fit almost all applications with low hoods.
Dorman LS2 90mm - much better overall than the Dorman LS6. Good construction and 90mm snout. The Dorman LS2 intake flows better than a stock LS6. DLS2 also has room for improvement. Touching up the runners helps with higher lift flow. I would like to know what an all out porting can do. Being two pieces probably not the ideal intake for demanding FI. Stock LS1 fuel rail fits. Needs TB cable bracket for cable TB's. Fits low profile hoods generally.
TBSS - The best factory cathedral intake. Best value too as often sold for $160 to $250 with fuel fail and injectors! Negative is its tall and won't fit under low profile hoods easily. Shaved the TBSS can even look as fantastic as it performs. The intake makes good top end power and pumps up the torque curve. With all the GM trucks on the road this manifold should in demand and be $400.
Ported Dorman LS2 - Dorman stepped up their game dramatically with this manifold. Fast inspired lower shell from a Fast 78 and an LS6 based user shell with a true 90 mm opening snout. The stock manifold flows well to .500 lift and can benefit from basic clean up above .500 lift. With retail around $445 this is a good manifold at at reasonable price. When Rock Auto was under cutting pricing the Dorman could be had for about $325. For cable TB needs bracket. Potential for 485 whp and maybe more with the correct supporting parts. Fits under low profile hoods well.
SuperAuto - this looks like a baby LSXRT and was the best flowing 78mm snout intake in my testing. Keeping with a 78mm stock/ported stock LS1 style TB if this intake fits under the hood it's most impressive on the flow bench. This was probably the most surprising intake in the test. With good port work if should improve.
BBK - the aluminum intake is good based on flow data. Potentially an excellent intake for high boost being metal vs plastic or nylon. The 85mm snout has room for porting. Likewise the runners have ample space for porting. While an all out extensive porting would probably be very expensive it would be interesting to see how much air this intake could flow.
Ported TBSS - Given the low cost of a used TBSS a good porter can really wake this intake up for minimum cost. Basically cartridge Roll clean up for the runners and a few other tweaks go along way. If the TBSS fits it's a great intake for low cost. The intake manifold gaskets can be hard to find as they are different than the other LS manifold gasket92.
LS6 TPiS/LPE 90mm - LS6 intake in hand and the TPIS/LPE 90mm snout can be a nice $350 mod for good airflow gain. Stock snout really restrictions the LS6. The LS6 has a smaller plenum volume than the aftermarket intakes in most cases. In my experience this intake works well on 346 & 383 LS engines. Easy to tune for excellent drive ability. In back to back testing it drove better than the Fast 90 on my car. Mine has been trouble free for three years and 10,000 miles.
Per LPE, LS6 90mmusually down 5-10 whp im dyno testing vs the Fast 90/92 on the typical street 427 build.
The LS6 runner flows max of ~265-270 cfm depending on flow bench and the cylinder head used for testing etc
Selling your LS6 for $350 to $400 towards a used Fast can also be a good option if a decent used Fast 90/92 is available.
Fast 90 - Excellent intake, out of the box. Great deals can be found used. Flows well & makes excellent power. Easy access for porting. So popular a new and improved version the Fast 92 appeared. The bigger runners max flow ~275-280 cfm depending on flow bench and the cylinder head tested.
Ported LS6 TPiS/LPE 90mm - Peak Speed did radical port. The plenum gained volume and definitely looks better. On the flow bench the LS6 runner didn't respond as well to clean up as I'd hoped. Suspect as the cam lift goes up the Peak Ported runners will probably help. Removing supports inside probably helps too.
Spending $400 towards Johnson or Morel lifters probably better choice. However, there are limits to flow bench testing and engine dyno would be the real way to measure.
Peak Ported LS6 TPiS/LPE 90mm bested both a 102 LSXRT (2 peak hp) & Fast 90 (3 peak hp) in back to back dyno testing on my small cam 383 stroker. It had a fatter hp and torque curve at all rpm tested. Big cam and high rpm the Fast intakes would have prevailed. Max rpm in the test was 6,500 and the car was out of cam ~6,000 rpm. The trick LS6 proved best in normal driving - basically stock
Ported Fast 90 - drives very good, a typical tuner can sort one out with good results, makes excellent power, well proven, priced right used. Bigger plenum yet well matched for smaller engines up to 408's and can still do very well on bigger 427's too. A most versatile & flexible aftermarket intake IMHO. Quality porting just makes it better
For 400+ cubes the bigger intakes are well worth considering.
Fast 92 - see comments for Fast 90 , improved revised version with better airflow. More expensive used than its older brother. Has more potential ported accordingly placed here.
Ported Fast 92 - see Fast 90 & Fast 92 comments for details. Just gets better with quality porting.
Super Vic - aluminum intake, 3rd best based in my flow testing. Potentially an outstanding intake for NA & forced induction. The plenum material for porting. Runners have material for porting. In my testing we didn't have an ideal port match. Port matched and all out extensive porting (expensive) it would be amazing to see how much air this intake can move. Suspect total lost flow could be 3 to 5 percent. A 325 cfm head might flow 315 cfm with this intake correctly ported and matched.
Fast LSXR 102 - proven performance intake makes excellent power on all set ups from stock cubes to ~427 cubes. Tuning skill determines drive ability -excellent to horrible. 102TB set up can be challenging to tune with cable throttle bodies. More cubes help. Mail order tuning can ease the pain. Frost has an excellent reputation from what I've gathered. This intake has been used on high effort bolt on Ls1 cars and made 400whp + and one bolt-on LS6 made 450+ whp
Ported Fast LSXR 102 - think Fast 102 LSXR just better will make more power and peak slight higher in most cases.
LSXRT - Key questions:
If the answer is YES to all proceed. Otherwise get an LSXR and avoid much grief. Had one on my 91RS with drive ability issues despite over a half dozen professional tuning attempts. My impression LSXRT well suited to 400+ cube engines and extremely finicky on 383 and smaller engines with a cable drive TB. These long runners even in stock form can move some serious air. Cam accordingly.
Ported LSXRT - LSXRT on steroids. Several years ago a former Ford intake engineer shared he saw a ported LSXRT dyno within 10 hp on a 1,000 hp engine of a custom sheet metal intake that cost five times as much. This can be a very formidable intake manifold.
Ported MSD
Ported = by a skilled expert porter
From worse LS4 to first ported MSD.
LS4 - you know it's garbage if an LS1 intake out flows and out powers it.
LS1 - With or without EGR, same results NA, good for base line testing, works well for forced induction or NOS. I'd favor the non-EGR LS1, it looks better and probably less likely to leak under boost. If it blows up - get another one for $50 to $75. Non-EGR version easily confused with an LS6 at a glance. LS1 has curved bottom. LS6 is flat.
Dorman LS6 - Sounds promising, however it's sometimes more of a 73mm snout opening intake than a 78mm stock size snout. You can hog out the snout to improve. Out of the box it's not what we want for an LS6 replacement. Dorman definitely got noticed with this offering. Better Dorman stuff is on down the list.
LS2 intake - Good design & 90mm snout. You know FAST probably soiled themselves at first glance. This should been, could have been, would have been the bomb - if intake didn't leak air between runners which is bad for NA. Forced induction all good until the sonic welded seams fail and it splits
LS6 - Excellent proven factory intake that's affordable used. New in 2002 for $400 and still see the listed in Marketplace for $350 to $400. Few parts hold value for over 15 years. The intake will fit almost all applications with low hoods.
Dorman LS2 90mm - much better overall than the Dorman LS6. Good construction and 90mm snout. The Dorman LS2 intake flows better than a stock LS6. DLS2 also has room for improvement. Touching up the runners helps with higher lift flow. I would like to know what an all out porting can do. Being two pieces probably not the ideal intake for demanding FI. Stock LS1 fuel rail fits. Needs TB cable bracket for cable TB's. Fits low profile hoods generally.
TBSS - The best factory cathedral intake. Best value too as often sold for $160 to $250 with fuel fail and injectors! Negative is its tall and won't fit under low profile hoods easily. Shaved the TBSS can even look as fantastic as it performs. The intake makes good top end power and pumps up the torque curve. With all the GM trucks on the road this manifold should in demand and be $400.
Ported Dorman LS2 - Dorman stepped up their game dramatically with this manifold. Fast inspired lower shell from a Fast 78 and an LS6 based user shell with a true 90 mm opening snout. The stock manifold flows well to .500 lift and can benefit from basic clean up above .500 lift. With retail around $445 this is a good manifold at at reasonable price. When Rock Auto was under cutting pricing the Dorman could be had for about $325. For cable TB needs bracket. Potential for 485 whp and maybe more with the correct supporting parts. Fits under low profile hoods well.
SuperAuto - this looks like a baby LSXRT and was the best flowing 78mm snout intake in my testing. Keeping with a 78mm stock/ported stock LS1 style TB if this intake fits under the hood it's most impressive on the flow bench. This was probably the most surprising intake in the test. With good port work if should improve.
BBK - the aluminum intake is good based on flow data. Potentially an excellent intake for high boost being metal vs plastic or nylon. The 85mm snout has room for porting. Likewise the runners have ample space for porting. While an all out extensive porting would probably be very expensive it would be interesting to see how much air this intake could flow.
Ported TBSS - Given the low cost of a used TBSS a good porter can really wake this intake up for minimum cost. Basically cartridge Roll clean up for the runners and a few other tweaks go along way. If the TBSS fits it's a great intake for low cost. The intake manifold gaskets can be hard to find as they are different than the other LS manifold gasket92.
LS6 TPiS/LPE 90mm - LS6 intake in hand and the TPIS/LPE 90mm snout can be a nice $350 mod for good airflow gain. Stock snout really restrictions the LS6. The LS6 has a smaller plenum volume than the aftermarket intakes in most cases. In my experience this intake works well on 346 & 383 LS engines. Easy to tune for excellent drive ability. In back to back testing it drove better than the Fast 90 on my car. Mine has been trouble free for three years and 10,000 miles.
Per LPE, LS6 90mmusually down 5-10 whp im dyno testing vs the Fast 90/92 on the typical street 427 build.
The LS6 runner flows max of ~265-270 cfm depending on flow bench and the cylinder head used for testing etc
Selling your LS6 for $350 to $400 towards a used Fast can also be a good option if a decent used Fast 90/92 is available.
Fast 90 - Excellent intake, out of the box. Great deals can be found used. Flows well & makes excellent power. Easy access for porting. So popular a new and improved version the Fast 92 appeared. The bigger runners max flow ~275-280 cfm depending on flow bench and the cylinder head tested.
Ported LS6 TPiS/LPE 90mm - Peak Speed did radical port. The plenum gained volume and definitely looks better. On the flow bench the LS6 runner didn't respond as well to clean up as I'd hoped. Suspect as the cam lift goes up the Peak Ported runners will probably help. Removing supports inside probably helps too.
Spending $400 towards Johnson or Morel lifters probably better choice. However, there are limits to flow bench testing and engine dyno would be the real way to measure.
Peak Ported LS6 TPiS/LPE 90mm bested both a 102 LSXRT (2 peak hp) & Fast 90 (3 peak hp) in back to back dyno testing on my small cam 383 stroker. It had a fatter hp and torque curve at all rpm tested. Big cam and high rpm the Fast intakes would have prevailed. Max rpm in the test was 6,500 and the car was out of cam ~6,000 rpm. The trick LS6 proved best in normal driving - basically stock
Ported Fast 90 - drives very good, a typical tuner can sort one out with good results, makes excellent power, well proven, priced right used. Bigger plenum yet well matched for smaller engines up to 408's and can still do very well on bigger 427's too. A most versatile & flexible aftermarket intake IMHO. Quality porting just makes it better
For 400+ cubes the bigger intakes are well worth considering.
Fast 92 - see comments for Fast 90 , improved revised version with better airflow. More expensive used than its older brother. Has more potential ported accordingly placed here.
Ported Fast 92 - see Fast 90 & Fast 92 comments for details. Just gets better with quality porting.
Super Vic - aluminum intake, 3rd best based in my flow testing. Potentially an outstanding intake for NA & forced induction. The plenum material for porting. Runners have material for porting. In my testing we didn't have an ideal port match. Port matched and all out extensive porting (expensive) it would be amazing to see how much air this intake can move. Suspect total lost flow could be 3 to 5 percent. A 325 cfm head might flow 315 cfm with this intake correctly ported and matched.
Fast LSXR 102 - proven performance intake makes excellent power on all set ups from stock cubes to ~427 cubes. Tuning skill determines drive ability -excellent to horrible. 102TB set up can be challenging to tune with cable throttle bodies. More cubes help. Mail order tuning can ease the pain. Frost has an excellent reputation from what I've gathered. This intake has been used on high effort bolt on Ls1 cars and made 400whp + and one bolt-on LS6 made 450+ whp
Ported Fast LSXR 102 - think Fast 102 LSXR just better
will make more power and peak slight higher in most cases.LSXRT - Key questions:
- Will it fit under the hood?
- Do I have access to a fantastic proven tuner?
- Does that upturned snout allow102 mm air tube in the engine compartment?
If the answer is YES to all proceed. Otherwise get an LSXR and avoid much grief. Had one on my 91RS with drive ability issues despite over a half dozen professional tuning attempts. My impression LSXRT well suited to 400+ cube engines and extremely finicky on 383 and smaller engines with a cable drive TB. These long runners even in stock form can move some serious air. Cam accordingly.
Ported LSXRT - LSXRT on steroids. Several years ago a former Ford intake engineer shared he saw a ported LSXRT dyno within 10 hp on a 1,000 hp engine of a custom sheet metal intake that cost five times as much. This can be a very formidable intake manifold.
Ported MSD
Ported = by a skilled expert porter
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 04-29-2019 at 08:57 PM.
04-17-2019, 11:15 PM
#675
My new Tony Mamo ported Fast 102 LSXR is on the way! Can't wait to get it and will post pictures of course Testing will follow naturally.
Regardless, of flow numbers, I know the Mamo LSXR will make excellent power when the new 408 finally comes together
Sounds like fun, look forward to reading about the details.
Testing will follow naturally.Regardless, of flow numbers, I know the Mamo LSXR will make excellent power when the new 408 finally comes together
Sounds like fun, look forward to reading about the details.
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 04-18-2019 at 10:49 AM.
04-18-2019, 06:46 AM
#676
I'll have to also extend my thanks to 99BlackBird for his real world testing of these manifolds - this type of data is pretty invaluable for anyone trying to get an idea of where these manifolds stack up in relation to one another. I've been following this thread for quite a while and to have all the data from manifolds tested on the same bench and then also bolted to the same set of heads has been great and really reinforced my decision to send off my ls6 to TPIS. Ironically I'd also considered having it ported by Peak Speed after so it was also cool to see the results of that, although I think I'll probably save some money there and just do the 90mm snout.
04-18-2019, 10:55 AM
#677
Peak Speed knocked it out of the ballpark porting the TBSS. I think that's definitely worth the cost.
The LS6 runner didn't respond as well to clean up. My guess is as the cam lift goes up the Peak clean up of the runners will probably help. Getting rid of the supports inside probably helps too. Probably get more beneficial rewards spending that $400 towards Johnson or Morel lifters.
The LS6 runner didn't respond as well to clean up. My guess is as the cam lift goes up the Peak clean up of the runners will probably help. Getting rid of the supports inside probably helps too. Probably get more beneficial rewards spending that $400 towards Johnson or Morel lifters.
04-25-2019, 04:06 PM
#680
10 Second Club
Joust got a DLS2
first impressions are it’s not junk. Ports need some clean up where the two halves meet. Nice size snout. The runners have a nicer bell on them inside the intake than a Stock ls6. Runner volume and plenum appear larger. I think in the end it will be a better NA intake than a Stock ls6
first impressions are it’s not junk. Ports need some clean up where the two halves meet. Nice size snout. The runners have a nicer bell on them inside the intake than a Stock ls6. Runner volume and plenum appear larger. I think in the end it will be a better NA intake than a Stock ls6