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The tfs flow 220 as cast nearly exactly the same and we sell them for $1950 with the ti retainers and .650 lift springs. You dont need a solid roller either. New lobes out by texas speed prove that new design is better, negating the need for $400+ lifters and any adj rocker arms or shims.
Alot less expensive option with off shelf parts that would be to your doorstep in a week. Fast 102/102 and a 230s cam and youd be done.
Your headers would hold you back as well as that vararam though. Need some quality headers like dynatech, stainless works, kooks or arh and nice X pipe then a halltech intake. It would be a killer setup on a very good budget.
the tfs heads arnt Cnc ported any the flow the same? Is thier any kind of velocity measurement for these heads to see how well they flow air as well?. So they are Texas speed hydro lifters?
The tfs flow 220 as cast nearly exactly the same and we sell them for $1950 with the ti retainers and .650 lift springs. You dont need a solid roller either. New lobes out by texas speed prove that new design is better, negating the need for $400+ lifters and any adj rocker arms or shims.
Alot less expensive option with off shelf parts that would be to your doorstep in a week. Fast 102/102 and a 230s cam and youd be done.
Your headers would hold you back as well as that vararam though. Need some quality headers like dynatech, stainless works, kooks or arh and nice X pipe then a halltech intake. It would be a killer setup on a very good budget.
could u link the lifter/rocket set up ur talking about. I can’t find any lifters made by TSP on their website for LS1.
I would run Tony's combo with a OE LS2 90 MM TB & Velocity Ring spacer to eliminate
The lip at plenum entry using the FAST 102 Intake. Easier to tune, all the airflow
You need to ~600 RWHP, save at least $200.00 Maybe $300.00 or more VS
NW 102 Electronic TB. Between Tony's parts & service and help from Darth,
The best combo you could hope for.
No need to go sold roller to get what you wanting to do. A little copy and paste and magic happens.
TFS 220's/62cc/PM guides(Chambers cleaned up by Brian Tooley)
FTI Streetsweeper 236/240 .631/.610 111(Always had good luck w/ Ed C)FAST 92/ LS2 TB both MamofiedKooks 1 7/8" LT'sKooks 3" XHalltech Venom IntakeDetailed stuff...Cometic .040 4.060 head gaskets(11.2:1 static if i calculated right)Johnson 2110 lifters(.040 preload)Manton 11/32 pushrods(7.450")BTR Platinum springs w/ Ti retainers(Shimmed .060)CHE bushed factory rockersC7R timing chainls2 chain damperMelling 10296 oil pumpFAST 36lb injectors(70% duty cycle)On a dynojet it pulled out a best of 488rwhp/429rwtq (SAE 5 smoothing). Pulled clean to 7000rpm. Stock LS6 short block.
I also did this exact trick using YT rockers, and it works perfectly. I was scared to try it until I read that thread. I spent maybe 20 minutes on the phone with Kip, and after that i was good to go. It was no harder than measuring pushrods for a hydraulic valvetrain. Been running for almost two years now. i quit checking lash, because it hasn't moved at all any of the times I checked. There literally is NO downside to it. no additional maintenance, no additional cost other than the time to get your shims right. If you price LLSR vs hydraulic cam and morel lifters, it's the same damned price.
i'm not trying to force you into it. Do what's best for you. but don't get it in your head that it's expensive or maintenance heavy or any of those things people who have not used them will throw out there.
So..... if you cut the Jezels out of your build list, does that help your price tag?
No need to go sold roller to get what you wanting to do. A little copy and paste and magic happens.
TFS 220's/62cc/PM guides(Chambers cleaned up by Brian Tooley)
FTI Streetsweeper 236/240 .631/.610 111(Always had good luck w/ Ed C)FAST 92/ LS2 TB both MamofiedKooks 1 7/8" LT'sKooks 3" XHalltech Venom IntakeDetailed stuff...Cometic .040 4.060 head gaskets(11.2:1 static if i calculated right)Johnson 2110 lifters(.040 preload)Manton 11/32 pushrods(7.450")BTR Platinum springs w/ Ti retainers(Shimmed .060)CHE bushed factory rockersC7R timing chainls2 chain damperMelling 10296 oil pumpFAST 36lb injectors(70% duty cycle)On a dynojet it pulled out a best of 488rwhp/429rwtq (SAE 5 smoothing). Pulled clean to 7000rpm. Stock LS6 short block.
I also did this exact trick using YT rockers, and it works perfectly. I was scared to try it until I read that thread. I spent maybe 20 minutes on the phone with Kip, and after that i was good to go. It was no harder than measuring pushrods for a hydraulic valvetrain. Been running for almost two years now. i quit checking lash, because it hasn't moved at all any of the times I checked. There literally is NO downside to it. no additional maintenance, no additional cost other than the time to get your shims right. If you price LLSR vs hydraulic cam and morel lifters, it's the same damned price.
i'm not trying to force you into it. Do what's best for you. but don't get it in your head that it's expensive or maintenance heavy or any of those things people who have not used them will throw out there.
So..... if you cut the Jezels out of your build list, does that help your price tag?
does it ever! They are $1300. So I can use my stock rockers with shims? Or do I need the YT rockers?
could u link the lifter/rocket set up ur talking about. I can’t find any lifters made by TSP on their website for LS1.
What i mean was TSP has developed their own lobes as they make their own cams.
They dont make lifters. I just meant you dont need to spend more $$ on solid roller lifters also. Ls7 lifters or even an upgrad to morel 5315/6504 would be the only option id recommend but i would recommend them. They are $195 and use the stock rocker trays.
The 223 mms seems to have cast runners also? But i could be wrong, hard so sift through all of that and he has no info on site yet.
The tfs 220s have an cast runner but cnc chamber just like (i assume) the mms 223 are. If both are as cast then they have the ability to grow later on with your ambitions etc.
Out of the box tfs as cast numbers on 3.910 bore
2.04 stainless intake valve 1.57 exhaust they do have a 2.055 intake and 1.57 exhaust option for same price...more made for a larger bore BUT do flow better in the upper lift due to the bigger valve of course so if you're in upper rpm alot then id use them.
does it ever! They are $1300. So I can use my stock rockers with shims? Or do I need the YT rockers?
you can use stock as long as lift stays at or below .625
Edit -- you will get better low lift numbers with any roller tip vs the stock rocker due to the "progressive" ratio, but That's something you can always bolt on later after your wallet recovers.
What i mean was TSP has developed their own lobes as they make their own cams.
They dont make lifters. I just meant you dont need to spend more $$ on solid roller lifters also. Ls7 lifters or even an upgrad to morel 5315/6504 would be the only option id recommend but i would recommend them. They are $195 and use the stock rocker trays. The 223 mms seems to have cast runners also? But i could be wrong, hard so sift through all of that and he has no info on site yet.
The tfs 220s have an cast runner but cnc chamber just like (i assume) the mms 223 are. If both are as cast then they have the ability to grow later on with your ambitions etc.
Out of the box tfs as cast numbers on 3.910 bore
2.04 stainless intake valve 1.57 exhaust they do have a 2.055 intake and 1.57 exhaust option for same price...more made for a larger bore BUT do flow better in the upper lift due to the bigger valve of course so if you're in upper rpm alot then id use them.
The MMS 223 (IIRC) is effectively a mamofied TFS 220. So Tony takes a TFS 220 and works his airflow magic on it. Last I saw, his MMS223 flows 320 at .600 lift. not sure if that also includes hand blending the bowls, but IMO that's a must-have. Navyblue might know better off the top of his head (or Tony if he chimes in again)
He said the 223 is cheaper than the 220 and his flow numbers are in thread so i assumed cast runner. Within 5 max on the 4.000 bore trick flow as cast and identical in quite a few areas. Cnc its no comparison. Hand finish the tfs220s and be above the mms223 then for less still.
The combo I posted above you'll save a 1000 dollars alone by using the factory rocker arms. You'll get close to 500rwhp on 91 octane with a hydraulic roller. That's having your cake and eating it too.
The combo I posted above you'll save a 1000 dollars alone by using the factory rocker arms. You'll get close to 500rwhp on 91 octane with a hydraulic roller. That's having your cake and eating it too.
We can likely polish that number a bit as a package deal and save even more honestly.
He said the 223 is cheaper than the 220 and his flow numbers are in thread so i assumed cast runner. Within 5 max on the 4.000 bore trick flow as cast and identical in quite a few areas. Cnc its no comparison. Hand finish the tfs220s and be above the mms223 then for less still.
Not following you. Both on a 3.9 bore plate. Taken from the pic below and Tony's thread:
So, unless I'm misreading the grammar, how is the TFS as cast outflowing mamo 223 and cheaper? FWIW, 1-CFM flow is worth a max 2.2 HP, assuming the rest of the combo can take advantage of it.
Edit -- nevermind, i see it now... He also makes a 220 based on AFR castings. That was what he was saying the 223 costs less than. And that was the head that he was saying flowed better than his 223.
CFM numbers really don't mean Remember all flow benches are different guys. They just like dynos. Some are forgiving and others are like "what happen" that's why I like track results. Prime example... a CNC LS3 head by a sponsor here looks great on paper with flow numbers vs others. Guy removed the LS3 heads for out the box TFS 235 heads and the car picked up 5 tenths in the quarter.... but on paper you'll assume the CNC ls3 head is the better head to go.
I did say within 5 max on the 4" bore. i didnt post the 4" bore. I do not know what valves the mms223 has. That is why i referred to both.
On an ls1 saying 1cfm is 2.2 hp is being very generous. 10cfm would be 22hp...i dont see that on a small bore. Flow numbers arent everything but they do mean alot. Wet flow numbers do also, but none are known for either.
Those are out of the box tfs 220s. Not hand touched etc. Like i said if that's the only diff then it would not be hard to beat for quite a few experienced guys out there to do.
The exhausts are nearly identical in the upper lift range also even on the smaller intake valved tfs. The tfs 2.040 and 2.055 flow numbers match on the 3.900 and 4.000 bore so there is some discrepancies there it seems.
I have seen a few actual tests showing the tfs did flow more, but unless they are flowed on the same bench, its just a bench racing comparison.
The heads are close enough to warrant looking at the price difference alone.
Here is the 2.055 valve on 4" bore. Not a clean A-B comparison but a comparison none the less.
At that point its a shootout between the tfs 220 and the tsp225 as casts for price vs flow.
Last edited by tech@WS6store; 10-04-2017 at 03:08 PM.
yeah, 2.2:1 is assuming the combo can take advantage of it. its a theoretical number i got from PatG a while back. A 300 CFM head can theoretically support 660 brake HP.
He said the 223 is cheaper than the 220 and his flow numbers are in thread so i assumed cast runner. Within 5 max on the 4.000 bore trick flow as cast and identical in quite a few areas. Cnc its no comparison. Hand finish the tfs220s and be above the mms223 then for less still.
I would actually appreciate you not making any more commentary regarding my product(s), lead times etc, as you are not versed in it well enough to do so. I certainly wouldn't (and haven't) discussed any of your products.
I sell my products based on their merits alone and I try to not get into discussing others as a professional courtesy of sorts.
Fact is I have been in this industry longer than most reading and typing on this forum have been on this earth and I have seen just about everything come across my bench at least once. Many 320 CFM heads that actually flow 295 CFM on my equipment....in fact that type of thing is almost commonplace. You can NOT compare flow numbers from different benches anyway but the numbers I posted on my MMS 223's are in fact on a 3.900 bore just to clarify and some of the better ones have tickled 320 CFM at just over .600 lift which is very impressive for that small a runner.
My 223's have a proprietary unique valve job, the valves themselves are also faced and back cut in an optimal manner, the transitions from the CNC chamber to my valvejob is just about perfect....almost seamless and I assure all of you that didnt happen by accident. All the bowls are hand finished perfecting that critical transition and aiding flow dramatically. It's a very "detailed" head for lack of a better word that I offer for reasonable dollars in an effort to grab a segment of the market I usually don't cater to (not a surprise to most of you). In fact this head came out even better than the goals I originally set for it adding even more to the value I tried to make available to you guys.
More importantly however, the level of customer service I personally provide both before, during and after the sale is second to none....especially considering who your dealing with and the years I have spent in this industry (those not familiar with my history/reputation I suggest you Google my name). I headed up the R&D department at AFR for 15 years, specifically in charge of ALL the product design with a long list of winning heads to point to there (not just Chevy)....I have designed intake manifolds (some for AFR), throttle bodies and am basically an expert in the field of airflow. I probably design a half a dozen custom cams a week and build a dozen or so motors a year (time permitting) applying all the knowledge I have garnered into a complete package for those looking for that type of thing (none of these are budget oriented motors however). I don't claim to know everything but Im a wealth of information when it comes to the LS platform....in fact most of the Chevrolet platforms (Im a bowtie man), but especially LS as its the sand box I play in every day and most of my personal hot rods are powered by LS engines.
What all this is worth to you is your call....but the clients smart enough to know what that's worth would be the guys I would want to speak with anyway as it's hard to put a price on and the longer you have been on this earth the more you can appreciate that fact. When you buy a Mamo Motorsports product your buying alot more than a set of heads or an intake manifold or a custom cam etc....and those that have dealt with me at great length can all attest to that fact
There are alot of buying choices out there and I can respect that but I advise all of you reading this to think about all the other facets of the purchase. You choice of heads especially as it will have the largest impact on your bottom line (final numbers) when you roll on that dyno. Cylinder heads are the star of the show and everything else just plays a supporting role....in professional racing more time is devoted to the cylinder heads than practically any other component and for good reason.
Im closing I would also like to add that I'm sorry I haven't been around as often (or posted as much) lately but running this business is more than a full time job and I probably work 75-80 hours a week (those that truly know me know that isn't BS)....doesnt leave as much time for posting and creating threads which I had more time to do before going out on my own.
If any of you have an interest or questions related to any of the products I offer feel free to PM or email me....I prefer email actually but it all works.
If you had published information on your website people wouldnt be making asassumptions based off a thread here, but i did compare it to others in the industry. Its what vendors do of course. I am not wrong nor out of the way in doing so. Im not sure if you are upset because you are being compared to your literal competitors or what.
Customers ask us for comparisons all the time. An actual flow sheet to compare side by side instead of just a thread on tech would be helpful.
Still no answer though as to whether your 220 or 223 are an as cast port or not. That is why i had to make a best guess comparison. And I quoted your lead times exactly as to what you have and did post.
10-04-2017, 01:25 PM
Remember all flow benches are different guys. They just like dynos. Some are forgiving and others are like "what happen" that's why I like track results. Prime example... a CNC LS3 head by a sponsor here looks great on paper with flow numbers vs others. Guy removed the LS3 heads for out the box TFS 235 heads and the car picked up 5 tenths in the quarter.... but on paper you'll assume the CNC ls3 head is the better head to go. 
