Fast 90/92 which maf and what size?
02-07-2018, 12:02 PM
#43
I never said it's not possible to get a car running decent in a short time. My main point was to get it to behave well under all conditions on a SD only tune is time consuming. It needs to be done in ultra cold, and hot conditions otherwise afr will reflect the outside temp, a lot. That adjustment is done through the cylinder charge temp table which biases either ECT, or IAT depending on airflow. Every adjustment there requires a VE adjustment too, and every VE adjustment will affect the bias. It's something I've been dealing with on mine because I'm picky and want my afr to look great in summer and winter.
Moral of the story is MAF pretty much negates the need to do all that.
Moral of the story is MAF pretty much negates the need to do all that.
02-07-2018, 12:50 PM
#44
TECH Fanatic
I tuned my old truck and my current trans am SD in the summer and made zero corrections for winter. They both run within .1-.3 afr of their summer time readings. Most of the time its exactly the same. Each one took a few hours at most of just driving to be right where I wanted it.
Every car is different. My friend has a bone stock LS1 with a procharger. He has the same fluctuation issues. We're still working that one to bias more ECT at idle. It's helping. But consider that both of our bias tables are the same if left stock. Both have very very different intake properties. I have an extra pair of oil coolers in front of the radiator, his has an intercooler. You can't tell me that leaving the bias out of it will work, or that you'll have the same outcome on either car.
My car idles at 18-20 g/s at idle alone. Heat has a massive effect on my afr. The air also moves a lot slower too, because I'm only at 65 kpa on my cam, on a good day. That's only 40 kpa of vacuum. Stock is up around 65 kpa of vacuum, if not more.
Now both of our cars run pretty well, but we are both picky, as in it's our cars. I am far less picky on other people's cars. I get them running good, make sure they are safe and call it a day. But when I find myself trying to start my car without the pedal when it's 10 degrees F out, I then find myself trying to get it to work, and spending days perfecting cold starts. You'll learn a lot when you also have to battle a pcm that wants to overshoot or undershoot.
Suddenly you start understanding every single table in the entire idle section, because it forces you to. If you aren't picky and just roll with it that doesn't tend to happen, and you won't find yourself researching what biases are, effective area, and idle trims. Just so everything works perfectly. I've found MAF can simplify all of that. But me being me, I really want to truly understand every little thing, so I don't stop until it's perfect.
02-07-2018, 02:34 PM
#45
TECH Fanatic
It's not just perfecting the tune, it's perfecting yourself as a tuner too. I'm happy to have had so many problems come up on my car. You don't learn a thing until you have to find solutions to an array of problems. Part of that learning curve included my old worn out 98 pcm. That alone taught me more about the tables and how everything works together than anything else. It was hard to tune. Even the speed shop couldn't get it quite right.
It's actually kind of boring for me to tune newer cars now. They work so well I'm not used to it lol. It's almost like when I'm done I triple check for problems because I am expecting them, but they never show up. It's almost disappointing, sometimes.
Then again, all I really need to do for a real challenge is try and tune spark on a mustang. It's like playing a game of battleship. If you get a hit (KR) you have to start bombing that whole column until you "sink it", because they use "load" for spark. Of course, there is no PID for "load" in hp tuners, so you can see why it's a challenge lol.
I haven't tuned dodges yet, but I'm assuming you use a ouija board, and ask the dark lord to adjust the tune. Lol.
It's actually kind of boring for me to tune newer cars now. They work so well I'm not used to it lol. It's almost like when I'm done I triple check for problems because I am expecting them, but they never show up. It's almost disappointing, sometimes.
Then again, all I really need to do for a real challenge is try and tune spark on a mustang. It's like playing a game of battleship. If you get a hit (KR) you have to start bombing that whole column until you "sink it", because they use "load" for spark. Of course, there is no PID for "load" in hp tuners, so you can see why it's a challenge lol.
I haven't tuned dodges yet, but I'm assuming you use a ouija board, and ask the dark lord to adjust the tune. Lol.
02-07-2018, 03:37 PM
#46
That's pretty awesome brother. I cannot however say my car or others with similar, heavily modified air intake and cooling systems behave quite the same as your example. The more you stray from stock setups, the more things like IAT and ECT will mess with you. I've seen my VE be 0 to 1% off in the afternoon, and then up to 10% off in the evening (30 degrees colder), especially at idle and low rpm.
Every car is different. My friend has a bone stock LS1 with a procharger. He has the same fluctuation issues. We're still working that one to bias more ECT at idle. It's helping. But consider that both of our bias tables are the same if left stock. Both have very very different intake properties. I have an extra pair of oil coolers in front of the radiator, his has an intercooler. You can't tell me that leaving the bias out of it will work, or that you'll have the same outcome on either car.
My car idles at 18-20 g/s at idle alone. Heat has a massive effect on my afr. The air also moves a lot slower too, because I'm only at 65 kpa on my cam, on a good day. That's only 40 kpa of vacuum. Stock is up around 65 kpa of vacuum, if not more.
Now both of our cars run pretty well, but we are both picky, as in it's our cars. I am far less picky on other people's cars. I get them running good, make sure they are safe and call it a day. But when I find myself trying to start my car without the pedal when it's 10 degrees F out, I then find myself trying to get it to work, and spending days perfecting cold starts. You'll learn a lot when you also have to battle a pcm that wants to overshoot or undershoot.
Suddenly you start understanding every single table in the entire idle section, because it forces you to. If you aren't picky and just roll with it that doesn't tend to happen, and you won't find yourself researching what biases are, effective area, and idle trims. Just so everything works perfectly. I've found MAF can simplify all of that. But me being me, I really want to truly understand every little thing, so I don't stop until it's perfect.
Every car is different. My friend has a bone stock LS1 with a procharger. He has the same fluctuation issues. We're still working that one to bias more ECT at idle. It's helping. But consider that both of our bias tables are the same if left stock. Both have very very different intake properties. I have an extra pair of oil coolers in front of the radiator, his has an intercooler. You can't tell me that leaving the bias out of it will work, or that you'll have the same outcome on either car.
My car idles at 18-20 g/s at idle alone. Heat has a massive effect on my afr. The air also moves a lot slower too, because I'm only at 65 kpa on my cam, on a good day. That's only 40 kpa of vacuum. Stock is up around 65 kpa of vacuum, if not more.
Now both of our cars run pretty well, but we are both picky, as in it's our cars. I am far less picky on other people's cars. I get them running good, make sure they are safe and call it a day. But when I find myself trying to start my car without the pedal when it's 10 degrees F out, I then find myself trying to get it to work, and spending days perfecting cold starts. You'll learn a lot when you also have to battle a pcm that wants to overshoot or undershoot.
Suddenly you start understanding every single table in the entire idle section, because it forces you to. If you aren't picky and just roll with it that doesn't tend to happen, and you won't find yourself researching what biases are, effective area, and idle trims. Just so everything works perfectly. I've found MAF can simplify all of that. But me being me, I really want to truly understand every little thing, so I don't stop until it's perfect.
02-07-2018, 04:30 PM
#47
TECH Fanatic
I do want to get the idle down even farther, because I believe the 0411 I have now can do it, because it's faster than my old one. I am going to shoot for 700, if I can get it down there. That takes a LOT of time experimenting with what it wants, advancing timing, setting airflows, adjusting IAC counts, and so on. It's such a delicate balance when you have a cam running at 20+ degrees of overlap, and over 300 degrees of total duration. It's something I want to do. It's actually completely unnecessary. But I want it that way. A big cam sounds so damn nasty at low rpm. If I fail, no biggie. At least I'll learn something about my car.
02-07-2018, 08:58 PM
#48
A big nasty cam in a big cube engine can be a real pain in the *** to tune down to where you want it. Ask me how I know? lol. The shop I took my car to for dyno tuning set the idle at 1100, and it surged HORRIBLY in almost every single part throttle area. I was most displeased with that. It idles now at 800, no surging at all. And it wouldn't have mattered if I used MAF or SD when it was mostly in the timing. It ran terrible after "getting it tuned." I wasn't very good at tuning at the time, but look back and see all of the mistakes they made, that I had to solve.
I do want to get the idle down even farther, because I believe the 0411 I have now can do it, because it's faster than my old one. I am going to shoot for 700, if I can get it down there. That takes a LOT of time experimenting with what it wants, advancing timing, setting airflows, adjusting IAC counts, and so on. It's such a delicate balance when you have a cam running at 20+ degrees of overlap, and over 300 degrees of total duration. It's something I want to do. It's actually completely unnecessary. But I want it that way. A big cam sounds so damn nasty at low rpm. If I fail, no biggie. At least I'll learn something about my car.
I do want to get the idle down even farther, because I believe the 0411 I have now can do it, because it's faster than my old one. I am going to shoot for 700, if I can get it down there. That takes a LOT of time experimenting with what it wants, advancing timing, setting airflows, adjusting IAC counts, and so on. It's such a delicate balance when you have a cam running at 20+ degrees of overlap, and over 300 degrees of total duration. It's something I want to do. It's actually completely unnecessary. But I want it that way. A big cam sounds so damn nasty at low rpm. If I fail, no biggie. At least I'll learn something about my car.
02-08-2018, 09:52 PM
#49
TECH Fanatic
I hardly know everything. Not even close. I learn more every time I try out a new mod, or try a new approach to a problem. I just had a steep learning curve with my own car, which has baffled more than one pro. There are still little things that bug me, but I've taken that car and did with it more than I ever thought I'd be able to do. I do have a thirst for knowledge though, so I enjoy scrolling through forums and learning new tricks, or theory's I want to try. Not for any other reason other than I'm just curious.
The next thing I'm going to try is setting up an IAT ground switch to act as an instant timing retard, using my stock pcm. That will be very useful when setting up for some spray. Nothing crazy, but it would be cool to see how well that works to be able to just chop timing using a toggle switch in the dash. The other reason is for when I have my cutouts open, I miss the crackle my car used to make on decel. Sounded awesome in tunnels. If that switch works, then that could be fun when cruising next to a Honda. The cutouts are already fun
The next thing I'm going to try is setting up an IAT ground switch to act as an instant timing retard, using my stock pcm. That will be very useful when setting up for some spray. Nothing crazy, but it would be cool to see how well that works to be able to just chop timing using a toggle switch in the dash. The other reason is for when I have my cutouts open, I miss the crackle my car used to make on decel. Sounded awesome in tunnels. If that switch works, then that could be fun when cruising next to a Honda. The cutouts are already fun
02-09-2018, 06:43 AM
#50
....
The next thing I'm going to try is setting up an IAT ground switch to act as an instant timing retard, using my stock pcm. That will be very useful when setting up for some spray. Nothing crazy, but it would be cool to see how well that works to be able to just chop timing using a toggle switch in the dash.....
The next thing I'm going to try is setting up an IAT ground switch to act as an instant timing retard, using my stock pcm. That will be very useful when setting up for some spray. Nothing crazy, but it would be cool to see how well that works to be able to just chop timing using a toggle switch in the dash.....
02-09-2018, 07:31 AM
#51
No need for him to even need a 2nd toggle switch to pull timing as it can all be wiring in to the main arming switch:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/nitrous-o...-see-here.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/nitrous-o...-see-here.html
02-09-2018, 07:55 AM
#52
No need for him to even need a 2nd toggle switch to pull timing as it can all be wiring in to the main arming switch:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/nitrous-o...-see-here.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/nitrous-o...-see-here.html
02-09-2018, 09:00 AM
#54
TECH Fanatic
No need for him to even need a 2nd toggle switch to pull timing as it can all be wiring in to the main arming switch:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/nitrous-o...-see-here.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/nitrous-o...-see-here.html