Would you rather have torque or horsepower?
03-10-2009, 01:00 AM
#28
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i dont know why people have the misconception that low end an engine only makes torque and high end is all horsepower... it is the same force propelling you at 2000 rpm as it is at 6000rpm, torque. an engine ONLY makes torque, so ill take the torque... horsepower is derived from torque and is a calculation.
a car accelerates directly proportional to its torque curve... no if's and or buts. if you hooked a g meter up to your car and were able to negate air resistance, the g readings would directly correspond to your torque curve, not horsepower curve.
hp vs torque... think of it this way... a 900 horsepower F1 engine probably only makes 250-300 ft lbs of torque, but! since it makes that torque at a crazy 18,000 rpm it can multiply that torque with GEARING. we run 3.42 stock rear end. an f1 car would probably run 3 times higher final drive ratio...This is what horsepower is. work. even a puny 250ft lbs of torque can be made extremely fast with enough rpm then multiplied with gearing...
basically make a wide torque curve and make it with a lot of rpms = fast = high horsepower = fun
a car accelerates directly proportional to its torque curve... no if's and or buts. if you hooked a g meter up to your car and were able to negate air resistance, the g readings would directly correspond to your torque curve, not horsepower curve.
hp vs torque... think of it this way... a 900 horsepower F1 engine probably only makes 250-300 ft lbs of torque, but! since it makes that torque at a crazy 18,000 rpm it can multiply that torque with GEARING. we run 3.42 stock rear end. an f1 car would probably run 3 times higher final drive ratio...This is what horsepower is. work. even a puny 250ft lbs of torque can be made extremely fast with enough rpm then multiplied with gearing...
basically make a wide torque curve and make it with a lot of rpms = fast = high horsepower = fun
03-10-2009, 05:52 AM
#30
03-10-2009, 05:59 AM
#31
i dont know why people have the misconception that low end an engine only makes torque and high end is all horsepower... it is the same force propelling you at 2000 rpm as it is at 6000rpm, torque. an engine ONLY makes torque, so ill take the torque... horsepower is derived from torque and is a calculation.
Youre right - HP is just a math equation. But that equation was created for a reason. It is TRQ multiplied by the speed of the engine. HP numbers judge the top end power of the car. TRQ and Speed of the engine is needed for higher speeds.
I would rather have a higher HP number and jsut gear it properly. Thats how fast cars are made.
03-10-2009, 06:03 AM
#32
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Well, I always figured I would at least once in my life I would get into a healthy discussion on one of the most 'debated' topics in automotive circles.
Horsepower (HP) = Torque (TQ) X RPM/5252. All dyno's measure rotational force (TQ) and using engine speed (RPM) to calculate HP.
It is all a measurement of Torque. Below 5252 RPM's all engines produce more torque than horsepower. At 5252 rpm's the TQ and HP numbers will be exactly the same.
The real question is 'where in your engine's operating rpm do you want your torque to end'. Stated another way, past 5252 rpm's the higher the TQ value that is measured, the higher the HP.
In reality, there is no difference between TQ and HP. It is the same mathmatical calculation, and the only reason most modded LS1's produce more HP than TQ, is that the engine is still producing substantial TQ past 5252 rpms.
TQ and HP are not mutually exclusive. In fact, it is always TQ that you are measuring.
Perhaps some of the dyno operators will comment. Even working with formula's for years, it still is not a easy concept to totally grasp. The hardest concepts are always the one where you are trying to make a distinction between two things, that in reality have no difference at all.
Don't know whether this explanation helps or not, but math does not lie.
Thanks for listening. Always an interesting 'debate'.
..WeathermanShawn..
Horsepower (HP) = Torque (TQ) X RPM/5252. All dyno's measure rotational force (TQ) and using engine speed (RPM) to calculate HP.
It is all a measurement of Torque. Below 5252 RPM's all engines produce more torque than horsepower. At 5252 rpm's the TQ and HP numbers will be exactly the same.
The real question is 'where in your engine's operating rpm do you want your torque to end'. Stated another way, past 5252 rpm's the higher the TQ value that is measured, the higher the HP.
In reality, there is no difference between TQ and HP. It is the same mathmatical calculation, and the only reason most modded LS1's produce more HP than TQ, is that the engine is still producing substantial TQ past 5252 rpms.
TQ and HP are not mutually exclusive. In fact, it is always TQ that you are measuring.
Perhaps some of the dyno operators will comment. Even working with formula's for years, it still is not a easy concept to totally grasp. The hardest concepts are always the one where you are trying to make a distinction between two things, that in reality have no difference at all.
Don't know whether this explanation helps or not, but math does not lie.
Thanks for listening. Always an interesting 'debate'.
..WeathermanShawn..
03-10-2009, 06:37 AM
#33
I completely understand that torque is power, but you need usable power to be fast.
A big turbo diesel makes crazy amount of torque, but how come we don't put turbo diesels into sports cars? Simple, because the usable power band only produces limited amounts of hp because the definition (not equation) of horsepower is the amount of work done for a given amount of time.
Look at surpas with big single turbos. They make a lot of torque and a lot of horsepower, but you've all heard the jokes:
What's a 350hp ls1 and a 600hp supra have in common, a 12 second timeslip.
Again, you need just enough torque as to not burn off the tires, and then progressively add more torque for as long as you can.
A big turbo diesel makes crazy amount of torque, but how come we don't put turbo diesels into sports cars? Simple, because the usable power band only produces limited amounts of hp because the definition (not equation) of horsepower is the amount of work done for a given amount of time.
Look at surpas with big single turbos. They make a lot of torque and a lot of horsepower, but you've all heard the jokes:
What's a 350hp ls1 and a 600hp supra have in common, a 12 second timeslip.
Again, you need just enough torque as to not burn off the tires, and then progressively add more torque for as long as you can.
03-10-2009, 07:05 AM
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horsepower is a mathematical function of torque and rpm so the question is flawed.. there is no either or..
Torque = (5252 x HP)/rpm .. same as = (Torque x rpm)/5252 = Hp
that is why the graphs ALWAYS intersects at 5252 rpm.. and if you have lots of horsepower and your not pinned in your seat, you arent running the correct gear/gearing
the only thing you feel in the seat of your pants is the torque at the wheel.... and that is dependent on the engines ability to generate torque at the given rpm (which is the definition of HORSEPOWER) and the final drive ratio.....
Torque = (5252 x HP)/rpm .. same as = (Torque x rpm)/5252 = Hp
that is why the graphs ALWAYS intersects at 5252 rpm.. and if you have lots of horsepower and your not pinned in your seat, you arent running the correct gear/gearing
the only thing you feel in the seat of your pants is the torque at the wheel.... and that is dependent on the engines ability to generate torque at the given rpm (which is the definition of HORSEPOWER) and the final drive ratio.....
03-10-2009, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by streetassasin
Or.......
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall
Torque is how far you take the wall with you after you hit it
NOT so... you are talking about inertia.....
Or.......
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall
Torque is how far you take the wall with you after you hit it
NOT so... you are talking about inertia.....
03-10-2009, 03:20 PM
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03-10-2009, 03:58 PM
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I was very lucky and got both, IMHO. Just haven't driven the car. Will post a link to the graph, give me 2 seconds.
BTW how much more balanced can you get then a 402 that makes 517/514 to the wheels. Torque down low, all the way to the limiter, and hp up top. Just check out the graph.
BTW how much more balanced can you get then a 402 that makes 517/514 to the wheels. Torque down low, all the way to the limiter, and hp up top. Just check out the graph.