Ms4 cam right for what I'm doing?
03-24-2009, 07:21 PM
#21
Thats is honestly a very ignorant statement. You are seriously just repeating **** you have heard.
7.5:1 Dcr is horrible? Whats the DCR on say... the top 10 on the cam only list?
And since were talking cam only... milling the heads doesnt seem to make much sense huh...
You talk like the ms4 is a light switch. Like it makes 185 ft pounds and wont do anything till 5k.
Ever been in a Ls car with 4.10/4.30's? A stock m6 will blow street tires away if you just want to play around. NO cammed m6 is going to be dull to drive. PERIOD.
IF you can handle the manners of a big stick car...IF your willing to build the combo Gears,weight,stall,Spin your motor high enough Then the bigs cam will be faster. Not saying the Ms4 especially but big cams in general.
The Big sticks are not for everyone. No one is saying they are. They reason people say what they do about them(the people your paraphrasing) is because most people dont know what it takes to make the cam worth it or the cam simple doesnt meet their needs.
7.5:1 Dcr is horrible? Whats the DCR on say... the top 10 on the cam only list?
And since were talking cam only... milling the heads doesnt seem to make much sense huh...
You talk like the ms4 is a light switch. Like it makes 185 ft pounds and wont do anything till 5k.
Ever been in a Ls car with 4.10/4.30's? A stock m6 will blow street tires away if you just want to play around. NO cammed m6 is going to be dull to drive. PERIOD. IF you can handle the manners of a big stick car...IF your willing to build the combo Gears,weight,stall,Spin your motor high enough Then the bigs cam will be faster. Not saying the Ms4 especially but big cams in general.
The Big sticks are not for everyone. No one is saying they are. They reason people say what they do about them(the people your paraphrasing) is because most people dont know what it takes to make the cam worth it or the cam simple doesnt meet their needs.
1. Smokin01ta 10.219 @ 132.29 (1.38), 01 T/A, M6, Spec4, 4.56, TRex, -1100, 3010 lbs, 3/06
2. LS1Joe 10.232@132.04 (1.39), 02z28, M6, Spec4, 4.71, 250, -1100, 3150, 03/06
3. 01-Z 10.295 @ 128.48 (1.38), 01 Z, TH400, 5500, 4.57, G5X4, -110, 2880, 4/05
4. Magnus 10.295 @ 128.48 (1.36), 97 Bird, T350, 5500, 4.10, G5X4, 200, 2820, 4/05
5. Dragaholic 10.340 @ 127.46 (1.36), 00 SS, 350, 5500, 4.56, TRex, -700, 2850, 11/05
6. SSmokedLS1 10.48 @ 130.29 (1.45), 01 T/A, M6, Spec4, 4.56, TRex, 800, 3035, 3/07
7. Trevor @ TSP 10.510 @ 125.80 (1.43), 98 Z, 4L60E, 4500, 4.56, MS3, -1000, 3175, 2/05
8. Project_SS 10.561 @ 126.74 (1.44), 98 SS, 4L60E, 4400, 3.73, Vind, 2400, 2840, 7/07
9. DMcRacer 10.738 @ 125.06 (1.46), 02 SS, 4L60E, 4600, 3.42, AMS, -1080, 3375, 1/05
10. SSPerformance 10.766 @ 124.22, 1.438, 94 Z, LS1, TH350, 4400, 4.33, TRex, -1000, 3300, 12/08
11. Jason99ta 10.783 @ 128.27 (1.56), 99 T/A, M6, RAM, 4.56, TRex, 1300, 3253, 06/04
12. Chrs1313 10.81 @ 122.67 (1.386), 02 Z, SS4000, 230/230, 3.23, -400, 3275, 10/08
13. GrannySShifting 10.821 @ 126.9 (1.47), 97 SS, M6, Tex, 4.56, PSI 233/238, -1000+, 3458, 11/08
14. PewterZ28 10.857 @ 123.53 (1.46), 02 Z, TH350, 4900, 4.10, G5X4, 46, 3310, 10/06
15. Coach02A3Z/28 10.917 @ 122.97 (1.47), 02 Z, TH350, TK, 5.13, TRex, 2751, 3200, 06/04
16. Camscam02 10.98 @ 121.98 (1.47), 02 SS, 4L60E, 4400, 4.10, MS3, 290, 3370, 11/07
Holy **** look at that a 3275 lb car, 4000 stall, 3.23 gears and the smallest cam on that cam only list. Oh wait did you look at his 60 foot time? 1.386 seconds, hmm I wonder if that cam is making any torque down low? Most of these cars on this list that run a 1.36-1.38 60 foot are 200-400 lbs lighter and run 4:56-4:71 rear gears. His el torro cam 230/230 is 10-20 degrees in duration smaller, and his DCR is around 8:1. Do not call me ignorant before you get your **** straight. But hey if you think bigger is better than go for it. Combination is key. Maybe the MS4 will blow the tires off on the street and feels great, but the same question go towards you. Have you been in a properly setup with a smaller cam to even compare it to? You and all your buddies probably stuck the biggest cam in they could find. I guarrentee chris's is alot more enjoyable to drive than any of those cam only trailer queens. Oh but I guess ignorance is bliss!
Last edited by Nitroused383; 03-24-2009 at 07:33 PM.
03-24-2009, 08:24 PM
#22
:Rant On:
I hate to argue with you, but I find it hard to believe that his car (not saying that a 10.8 cam only isn't a great accomplishment), even with a cam that less duration with a super loose (ss 4000) stall than my ms4, is more "fun" or "streetable" than my MS4 with a tight nitrous converter (and running 11.41 off of idle easing into the gas to save the 10 bolt)... Let me put an SS4000 (or any 8"converter) in my car and leave off the brake... I promise it will run much faster than a 10.8 even at a 3700 lb race weight (compared to his 3250). Hell, even without 4th gear and a lockup converter, my car only spins to 2800 @ 65 with 3.42 gears and will blow the tires off anywhere below 50 on the street on the motor. Low end grunt is not an issue with the right cr, intake, gearing, etc.
I do agree though, that it is much more about a setup than just a cam choice. Stock heads do not like these huge cams. Even though the stock LS1 head flows great compared to many other stock heads, they like more compression with an aggressive cam... End of story. You aren't going to stick a donkey dick cam into an othewise stock LS1 and be happy. People need to learn that.
YOU NEED THE WHOLE SETUP....
You are right, there aren't many MS4 cams on the cam only list. This is because the MS4 isn't a "cam only cam" like the T-Rex or other cams that work well with stock flow, runner geometry, etc. It's not about numbers, it's about how a combo works together.
:Rant Off:
I guess I just get irritated when people don't understand how you need parts that work well together to get the desired end result.
I hate to argue with you, but I find it hard to believe that his car (not saying that a 10.8 cam only isn't a great accomplishment), even with a cam that less duration with a super loose (ss 4000) stall than my ms4, is more "fun" or "streetable" than my MS4 with a tight nitrous converter (and running 11.41 off of idle easing into the gas to save the 10 bolt)... Let me put an SS4000 (or any 8"converter) in my car and leave off the brake... I promise it will run much faster than a 10.8 even at a 3700 lb race weight (compared to his 3250). Hell, even without 4th gear and a lockup converter, my car only spins to 2800 @ 65 with 3.42 gears and will blow the tires off anywhere below 50 on the street on the motor. Low end grunt is not an issue with the right cr, intake, gearing, etc.
I do agree though, that it is much more about a setup than just a cam choice. Stock heads do not like these huge cams. Even though the stock LS1 head flows great compared to many other stock heads, they like more compression with an aggressive cam... End of story. You aren't going to stick a donkey dick cam into an othewise stock LS1 and be happy. People need to learn that.
YOU NEED THE WHOLE SETUP....
You are right, there aren't many MS4 cams on the cam only list. This is because the MS4 isn't a "cam only cam" like the T-Rex or other cams that work well with stock flow, runner geometry, etc. It's not about numbers, it's about how a combo works together.
:Rant Off:
I guess I just get irritated when people don't understand how you need parts that work well together to get the desired end result.
03-24-2009, 09:01 PM
#23
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I daily drove my MS4 car for over a year with no complaints. Its a great cam for roll racing. I don't have too many problems unless I run into something on HIGH boost or a lot of nitrous, I'll be spraying mine soon so that won't be an issue anymore.
03-24-2009, 09:09 PM
#24
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I had a 231/237 tsp cam and swapped it for the ms4. Way more fun to drive on the street. I actually got more power down low from just swapping the cams and a fast 90/90. I kept the same heads and gained like 20-30 down low. I've got 4.10's and anytime i roll race im above 4,000 rpms. i even had this cam with 4.10 gears and some 28'' tire which was like driving a 3.73 gear and i never felt a lack of power down low. But i did gain on the low end so i say go for it.
And i can break loose my 315 hoosier dr's which are crazy sticky at 3,000 rpm from a roll all day. Call tsp and talk to them about it.
And i can break loose my 315 hoosier dr's which are crazy sticky at 3,000 rpm from a roll all day. Call tsp and talk to them about it.
03-25-2009, 12:07 AM
#25
:Rant On:
I hate to argue with you, but I find it hard to believe that his car (not saying that a 10.8 cam only isn't a great accomplishment), even with a cam that less duration with a super loose (ss 4000) stall than my ms4, is more "fun" or "streetable" than my MS4 with a tight nitrous converter (and running 11.41 off of idle easing into the gas to save the 10 bolt)... Let me put an SS4000 (or any 8"converter) in my car and leave off the brake... I promise it will run much faster than a 10.8 even at a 3700 lb race weight (compared to his 3250). Hell, even without 4th gear and a lockup converter, my car only spins to 2800 @ 65 with 3.42 gears and will blow the tires off anywhere below 50 on the street on the motor. Low end grunt is not an issue with the right cr, intake, gearing, etc.
I do agree though, that it is much more about a setup than just a cam choice. Stock heads do not like these huge cams. Even though the stock LS1 head flows great compared to many other stock heads, they like more compression with an aggressive cam... End of story. You aren't going to stick a donkey dick cam into an othewise stock LS1 and be happy. People need to learn that.
YOU NEED THE WHOLE SETUP....
You are right, there aren't many MS4 cams on the cam only list. This is because the MS4 isn't a "cam only cam" like the T-Rex or other cams that work well with stock flow, runner geometry, etc. It's not about numbers, it's about how a combo works together.
:Rant Off:
I guess I just get irritated when people don't understand how you need parts that work well together to get the desired end result.
I hate to argue with you, but I find it hard to believe that his car (not saying that a 10.8 cam only isn't a great accomplishment), even with a cam that less duration with a super loose (ss 4000) stall than my ms4, is more "fun" or "streetable" than my MS4 with a tight nitrous converter (and running 11.41 off of idle easing into the gas to save the 10 bolt)... Let me put an SS4000 (or any 8"converter) in my car and leave off the brake... I promise it will run much faster than a 10.8 even at a 3700 lb race weight (compared to his 3250). Hell, even without 4th gear and a lockup converter, my car only spins to 2800 @ 65 with 3.42 gears and will blow the tires off anywhere below 50 on the street on the motor. Low end grunt is not an issue with the right cr, intake, gearing, etc.
I do agree though, that it is much more about a setup than just a cam choice. Stock heads do not like these huge cams. Even though the stock LS1 head flows great compared to many other stock heads, they like more compression with an aggressive cam... End of story. You aren't going to stick a donkey dick cam into an othewise stock LS1 and be happy. People need to learn that.
YOU NEED THE WHOLE SETUP....
You are right, there aren't many MS4 cams on the cam only list. This is because the MS4 isn't a "cam only cam" like the T-Rex or other cams that work well with stock flow, runner geometry, etc. It's not about numbers, it's about how a combo works together.
:Rant Off:
I guess I just get irritated when people don't understand how you need parts that work well together to get the desired end result.
03-25-2009, 01:11 AM
#26
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Have you thought about the ms3 hear its pretty good and loves the six speeds and is very possible for making the numbers your looking for??? but try tick performance too the polluter cam maybe.Why are you looking at cams with soo high revving???
03-29-2009, 04:35 PM
#27
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Sorry, I lost this post for a bit. I've always been good at handling rough driving conditions in a DD(my last car had ac deleted, which I will never do again, no radio, straight longtubes with no mufflers, all sound deadening stuff taken out etc.). I figured I could handle the "DD sacrifice" for the power. And I still believe I can. Now the motor I'm buying already has a comp cam 224/224 114.. What kinda gains does a small cam like that provide? I might just leave it on and put in the nitrous first instead of the cam first, then switch cams later.
Judging by what everyone is telling me, I really am believing the ms4 would be a good cam for me. I think it's that high end/high revving power I'm searching for.
I appreciate all the great input. I'm still trying to understand the real differences between all the big cams, ms4, trex, el torro, and all of them.. Do they make different power in different rpms or what? What makes one stand out over the other in different applications?
Judging by what everyone is telling me, I really am believing the ms4 would be a good cam for me. I think it's that high end/high revving power I'm searching for.
I appreciate all the great input. I'm still trying to understand the real differences between all the big cams, ms4, trex, el torro, and all of them.. Do they make different power in different rpms or what? What makes one stand out over the other in different applications?
03-29-2009, 09:01 PM
#30
^ EFFIN A sir. Thats the attitude for a big cam. Call up TSP and tlak to them about your setup. throw a NASTY gear in the car and roll from their. Might as well spray it 
03-30-2009, 08:38 PM
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Actually, I think you need to read what I said again. "I'm still trying to understand the real differences between all the big cams, ms4, trex, el torro, and all of them.. " Are any of those cams 224 duration? No they sure are not. I completely understand the difference between a 224, and a 235+. I'm asking how alot of the larger cams differ from eachother, since many of them put out the same numbers, I'm asking if some of them make that power in different areas, or for longer amounts of time.
03-31-2009, 01:44 AM
#34
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i have the MS4(with supporting valve train) in a 99 WS6 with the 90m fast and 90mm throttle body, and little to no exhaust. i race it on the street(from a roll at times) and it is damn rocket ship, if your leaving from a stand still then sure yeah you might want the low end torque of a smaller cam, but from a roll you are going to want to take it as far as you can in one gear not having to shift because your car has stopped pulling. so the 3700- 6800 is ideal for a roll race. in my opinion..how often are you really going to be bellow that in a race? so why have a cam that works only within part of that range?
03-31-2009, 02:53 PM
#36
Something that would make me lean towards another cam over the ms4 is the .649 lift on the intake…something to think about too…
It basically boils down to this…
is the extra 5-10hp up top worth the low end loses and drivability differences…so that means if you aren’t maxed out everywhere else it was not worth it getting the large cam for a street car…take just a ram air setup worth 25rwhp for my cam only car over the stock setup…
I think there are other places to make up that little bit of difference in the cams…
This is just my opinion, I also have experience with a MS3/5.3 setup too(track only car)…
have fun deciding
03-31-2009, 08:50 PM
#37
Yeah.... Six tenths.... That pass was only a 1.74 60' which is down right pitiful for an auto since it was leaving off idle... And, the car is very street drivable even with the oh so hated three speed non-overdrive trans (th400). Hell, even if I could only cut a 1.44 of of the brake, there's my six tenths in the 1/4, not to mention what a looser converter would net me....
I know it's sort of ricer math here... but you've gotta see that I have a point...
I know it's a difference of opinion, but after running a totally unoptimized setup, babying it, and knowing what it's got left, I can surely say that 6 thenths or more is not out of the question.
And believe me, after driving this cam while my car was a 6 speed, and now with an auto, I can say that there are NO losses in power anywhere.... It is faster than stock all across the board... It may loose a few ft/lbs to a more torque oriented cam down low, but it is by far better than stock, and the pull up top outweighs the 5-10 ft/lb loss over a cam ground for low end grunt.
I know it's sort of ricer math here... but you've gotta see that I have a point...
I know it's a difference of opinion, but after running a totally unoptimized setup, babying it, and knowing what it's got left, I can surely say that 6 thenths or more is not out of the question.
And believe me, after driving this cam while my car was a 6 speed, and now with an auto, I can say that there are NO losses in power anywhere.... It is faster than stock all across the board... It may loose a few ft/lbs to a more torque oriented cam down low, but it is by far better than stock, and the pull up top outweighs the 5-10 ft/lb loss over a cam ground for low end grunt.
04-01-2009, 05:48 AM
#38
I see your point but you might wanna look at a power calculator because you are going to need to be in the low/mid 1.3s and get everybit of that 121mph to get a 10.80...a 1.44 is not going to get you a 10.81 or better...plus you said much faster which to me is at least 2 tenths so more like 10.50-10.60...
i think your ricer math is off a little .1 in the 60ft is more like .15 in the 1/4"...
i think your ricer math is off a little .1 in the 60ft is more like .15 in the 1/4"...
Yeah.... Six tenths.... That pass was only a 1.74 60' which is down right pitiful for an auto since it was leaving off idle... And, the car is very street drivable even with the oh so hated three speed non-overdrive trans (th400). Hell, even if I could only cut a 1.44 of of the brake, there's my six tenths in the 1/4, not to mention what a looser converter would net me....
I know it's sort of ricer math here... but you've gotta see that I have a point...
I know it's a difference of opinion, but after running a totally unoptimized setup, babying it, and knowing what it's got left, I can surely say that 6 thenths or more is not out of the question.
And believe me, after driving this cam while my car was a 6 speed, and now with an auto, I can say that there are NO losses in power anywhere.... It is faster than stock all across the board... It may loose a few ft/lbs to a more torque oriented cam down low, but it is by far better than stock, and the pull up top outweighs the 5-10 ft/lb loss over a cam ground for low end grunt.
I know it's sort of ricer math here... but you've gotta see that I have a point...
I know it's a difference of opinion, but after running a totally unoptimized setup, babying it, and knowing what it's got left, I can surely say that 6 thenths or more is not out of the question.
And believe me, after driving this cam while my car was a 6 speed, and now with an auto, I can say that there are NO losses in power anywhere.... It is faster than stock all across the board... It may loose a few ft/lbs to a more torque oriented cam down low, but it is by far better than stock, and the pull up top outweighs the 5-10 ft/lb loss over a cam ground for low end grunt.
04-01-2009, 09:07 PM
#39
Either way it doesn't matter, the guy has a set of PRC 2.5 5.3 heads. I'm sure he has atleast 11:1 compression. He should be able to run faster than a stock head, 10.2:1, 230/230 duration cam 
Some people just dont get it do they? Most of them are from Texas and I guess their motto carries over to cams "bigger is better".
Some people just dont get it do they? Most of them are from Texas and I guess their motto carries over to cams "bigger is better".
04-02-2009, 12:06 PM
#40
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hey guys. guess what texas speed did for ALL of you a little while back. they dyno'd a BUNCH of their cams...
hmmm. weird. OMFGZZZ!!!! MS4'S TORQUE IS TERRIBLE TIL 5K RPM'S!!!1!2232!!!
remember... the engines are all ABOUT the same. everyone here with a cam only ls1 has the same motor. torque is going to come on at ABOUT the same rpm. we're not comparing engines that are vastly different in any way... the curves are going to look pretty simmilar. while yes, it looks like the ms4 is down on torque a smidge in the 3700 - 4700 range, look at the advantage in the 5100+ rpm range. again, same with power. in the 3700-4700 range it looks like theres maybe 5 horse power on the table, if that. once you get past 5100 though theres a larger gain. more like 10hp.
again, OMGZ YOU GOT AN MS4 YOUR GONNA SUCK AT LYFE NOW!! not.
theres lots of information on this website, as well as the world wide interwebs. i suggest you guys use it more often while arguing instead of
hmmm. weird. OMFGZZZ!!!! MS4'S TORQUE IS TERRIBLE TIL 5K RPM'S!!!1!2232!!!
remember... the engines are all ABOUT the same. everyone here with a cam only ls1 has the same motor. torque is going to come on at ABOUT the same rpm. we're not comparing engines that are vastly different in any way... the curves are going to look pretty simmilar. while yes, it looks like the ms4 is down on torque a smidge in the 3700 - 4700 range, look at the advantage in the 5100+ rpm range. again, same with power. in the 3700-4700 range it looks like theres maybe 5 horse power on the table, if that. once you get past 5100 though theres a larger gain. more like 10hp.
again, OMGZ YOU GOT AN MS4 YOUR GONNA SUCK AT LYFE NOW!! not.
theres lots of information on this website, as well as the world wide interwebs. i suggest you guys use it more often while arguing instead of