C_Williams

I posted this on the C5 forum and, of course, it was a waste of my time. I should have posted here first.

Anyway, here's the question - has anyone successfully used an electric vacuum pump to evacuate the crankcase properly, enough so that the desired effect occurs(pull the rings to the bore)?

I can use the air pump that is mounted in the car but I was only able to pull ~4.5" hg - and that is not near enough to gain the RWHP that I've seen gained before.

However, there is one pump, made in Switzerland that is made to supply vacuum to the brake booster on EV cars that has promise. It's relatively small (about the size of the air pump), compact, quiet and even has a small accumulator. This pump will pull 17" hg, draws less than 2 amps and is rated as continuous duty.

Are there any pioneers (knowledgeable ones) on this board that can add something to this or am I on my own?

All constructive and factual information is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Cheatin' Chad

iTrader: (3)

Yes it can be done .Moroso sells a vacuum pump just for this purpose but it is belt driven. You could probably use an electric pump.However I don't see an electric pump holding up as long.
I have seen converted A.I.R pumps (the belt driven kind) converted for vacuum pump use.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Some folks use the Caddy 4-6-8 evac pump.

I have one here that I bought from jmX and have not put on my car, most due to the fact that it's like #100 on my list of things to do on the car.

I've also heard of folks using the pump from a Lightning and from a 96 Cobra.

Madman -----------> is the guy to check with on this stuff IMO.

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

What kind of power incress do you expect to see from doing thid? Also, how do you keep it from puing the oi out as well? We do this in the arge industrial buisness but for different reasons. We do it to keep oil eaks to a minimal ans for safety. If we extract all the unburntet gases from the crankcase it keeps the chance of a crancase explosion down to a minimam. When you consider our engines can hold up to 300 galons of oil, you have a masive bomb potentual on your hands. You know what I mean? so as I asked what would the benifit of doing this to an LS1 be besides controling oil eaks?

Vents

iTrader: (9)

i've been looking into this for a while now, and the only thing i can see doing is finding another pump, mount it where the wir pump is and ditch the PCV. that would more than solve the oil consumption problem i've seen. any more light on this?

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Also can users post what #'s they see at idle and at WOT?

A competitive racer friend from the blue oval world sees 6 inches at idle and 15 at WOT with the Moroso.

TaTommyWS6

My goal is not for increased HP but to stop the blow-by that I have been getting at WOT ever since I did my headers and cam.

I finished rigging up me airpump last night,

Stock PCV still in place (from LS6 valley cover)
Air pump pulls from driver's side valve cover, and outlet side let's out in front fender with filter.
I have it relayed and fused to a microswitch which I connected to the throttle cam. I fabbed a bracket (looks like crap so far), that activates the pump at about 75% throttle. I set it up this way because the pump will burn out if it stays on all the time...

It seems to work great on the highway where I can mash the gas!
Doesn't work so well from a standstill since I cannot floor my throttle in 1-3 gear. My tires just spin...

Anyways, maybe if I tweak when the pump turns on, maybe it will be more usefull from a standstill...

If not I am going to try a stronger electric pump now that all the wiring and plumbing is already in place.


Tommy

Tim98TA

iTrader: (7)

Where is some info on the Switzerland pump.
I have been using the 2001+ AIR pumps from our cars with success. They are better than the 98-99 pumps. The Mustang pump is the same thing. They don't pull enough vacuum to make a hp difference, but they do help with the evac part. I've had mine rigged up for ~2 years now.

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

maybe you shoud investigate what is causing your engine to have the blowby now that you installed the headers and cam instead of putting a band aid on it. I can tell you from experince that if the engine is detonating hard enough, it can make the rings come unseated from the cylinder walls. At the moment the rings become unseated it wi let the oil and or burnt gases pass by the rings. This can cause you to leave a big cloud of smoke out the tai pipes. It can also cause the crank case pressure to sky rocket. This will lead to oi leaking from every were. From what you are telling me it sounds like there is something wrong that you should look for and correct before something negative happens.

Good luck.

Cstraub

iTrader: (1)

The company I use to work for had a modified electric pump, good for alky engine but it will not pull enough inches to help with ring seal. We supply a kit to several mfg. for a belt driven type. Results vary due to engine assemble but it pulls between 12 and 17 on average. You can contact ed at flowtech induction for pricing.

Cstraub
Stef's Performance Products

TaTommyWS6

I've logged my car more times than I care to remember, and I do get any KR. I've spoken to many people who do not run cats, and have headers, and they get lots of blow-by also.

The REASON is low-tension oil rings. They come on our cars from the factory that way, and when everything is stock, exhaust, cam, etc... they work fine. Once you "disrupt" the airflow balance in the engine by modding the engine, this happens. I'm not in denial... The car runs great besides it belching out smoke during WOT sometimes!

Racers have been using crankcase evac units for a long time. It is not a problem with the engine, just an issue that needs to be dealt with.

Tommy

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

Does any one make better rings? I am sure if it is a problem with the factory rings, someone out there is making better ones. What i am say is if it were me, and it isn't, but if it was, I would try to fix the problem with the right internal parts. I would not something else driven by my engine that can cause more problems or be something else I will have to deal with unless it gave me more power.

I am thinking over the low tension oil ring theory, I just don't buy it. They told you that the factory rings are good unless you change the factory system up, like headers, cam, cats, and exhaust. If that is so, why doesn't any of my partners cars have this problem?
If disturbing the air flow, power output, exhaust flow, or anything else will cause this then why is it when I hit my car with the 150 N2O shot it does not smoke or have blowby? My car is complety stock and have 42000 miles on it. Sounds to me someone is filling you full of bull **** to me. But I could be wrong. I am not a profesional mechanic. I am not profesionaly involved in designing new engines or working out failure analisise of engines with extreme loads. Oh wait, I forgot, thats exactly what I do. My bad sorry.

Ok, I am finished being an ***. I am finished poking fun at who ever told you that lame bullshit. Fact is, if your engine has excessive crank case pressure and is bowing smoke out the exhaust at WOT then there is something wrong with the engine. Like I said before, you should look into finding what it is that is causing the problem and correct that. Not put a band aid on it. A band aid will only lead you to more headacks down the rode.

Of course this is not my engine, and you are free to do what ever you want. I am not reay trying to fame or be an ***. I am just trying to help some. Good luck and take care.

TaTommyWS6

[QUOTE=Texas_WS6]
Ok, I am finished being an ***. I am finished poking fun at who ever told you that lame bullshit.
QUOTE]



OK, here we go...

Why not do a little research before making an *** out of yourself (it's good at least you realized you were doing so)

Here are a few links to start:
http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...overs/acc.html
notice part #65-052 I guess these guys are selling the bullshit....

And here is a "bullshit" quote from Moroso:
"Racing Vacuum Pump • Increased vacuum increases power/engine efficiency and allows use of low-tension rings for reduced friction."

OK, and this link explains how the stock oil rings are only rated a 9 pounds:
http://www.idavette.net/hib/02ls6/page5.htm

Yes, one can replace the stock oil rings with higher tension rings (13 pound for example), but that will lead to a lot of work just to make slightly less power. How the hell would adding a vacuum pump, letting the engine run more effeciently, be a band aid?!?! This is coming from a friggin' guy who's mods include Nitrous, an amplifier, and the careful placement of his two monsterous subwoofers!!! hahhahah

God help your employer if you really do for a living what you say you do. And if it is your own business, God help you!

We finally got a thread going to put some knowledgable minds together to figure out a solution to an issue many of us face. Let's keep it going, and don't be discouraged by ignorance...

Tommy

2001CamaroGuy

iTrader: (6)

- Yes it can be done (I did it on my 01 Z28)
- Yes it prevents blow by (I had about 2 in/hg at idle and 18 in/hg at 6500)
- Yes it gains hp (about 5-7 hp increase......the car idled smoother and pulled harder with it on)

Until a month ago I had my vacuum pump on my car. The reason I got rid of it was the pump actually will pull oil mist out of the crank case (just like the stock PCV pulls it into the intake manifold). The problem with that (at least for me) was that unlike the PCV were the oil mist goes into the cylinders and gets burned, the oil mist coming out of the vacuum pump has nowhere to go but out into the engine compartment (even with a catch can). Basically I got tired of having to clean the engine compartment every other day and having oil drip on the driveway.

So again, YES to all of those questions.....

For all the people who called it BS: one question "ever stick your hand out of the car window at 100+ mph? Now consider what the crank, rods, and the cup of the pistons are seeing at 6500RPM......" wake up smart asses......things exist for a reason.....

Richard@WCCH

iTrader: (3)

Another benefit of vacuum in the crankcase is the reduction of oil foaming. Hi vacuum eliminates the tiny airbubbles from forming and that in turn allows the oil that is pumped to the engine bearings to maintain the all important hydrostatic lock for reduced bearing wear.
Moroso's belt driven pump is part #22640(3vane) and 22641(4vane). My guess is that the 4vane pump is what would produce the best results. A mounting bracket would have to be fabed to install on LS1 cars.

Hope this helps,

Richard

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

Ok TATommy,
You said before "MY GOAL IS NOT FOR INDREASED HP BUT TO STOP THE BLOW-BY THAT I HAVE BEEN GETTING AT WOT EVER SINCE I DID MY HEADERS AND CAM"

I stated if you "maybe you shoud investigate what is causing your engine to have the blowby now that you installed the headers and cam instead of putting a band aid on it. I can tell you from experince that if the engine is detonating hard enough, it can make the rings come unseated from the cylinder walls. At the moment the rings become unseated it wi let the oil and or burnt gases pass by the rings. This can cause you to leave a big cloud of smoke out the tai pipes. It can also cause the crank case pressure to sky rocket. This will lead to oi leaking from every were. From what you are telling me it sounds like there is something wrong that you should look for and correct before something negative happens.

Good luck."

So if your goal is to correct the blow-by problem then there is a correct way to fix it and a temporary fix. Both ways cost money. Correcting the problem at the rings is the right way to go about it.

Now if you are looking for the other benifits other members have noted, that I can understand. Then you come back and tak trash to me for poking a little fun at myself and at the same time you change your reasons for having the pump from fixing a bad ring problem to getting more hp with it. Now you should make up your mind and not come down on people who are trying to help you. As for who I work for and what I do, I have 10 years with Waukesha Engines. I worked in the field doing Failure Analisys of new engines and consept engines. I can send you my resume if it would make you happy. I am exactly who I say I am. As for my car, I do not put yours down, no I try and bring to light other things you might check into to help you out. Yes, at this time all I have is N20 in it. I have not had my car long enough to do too much to it. You have different goals with your car then I have with mine.
As far as what I stated as to what is bullshit, I still think the idea that due to the cam and headers your car is smoking is still a bunch of bull. Nothing changes the fact that the reason the engine has blow-by is because the rings are not sealing good. The rings are bad, shitty, or what ever you want to lable them. You can help the rings seal with placing vacuum on the crankcase, but the cam and headers and cats did not cause the problem, the shitty rings did. Thats what I am trying to tell you. The idea that because you changed cams and exhaust, you will have to put up with blow-by and smoke at WOT is bullshit.
What I am sugesting to you is to fix the problem with the rings, then if you want the benifit of better oil control, less pumping looses under the pistons, then due the vacuum pump. You should not need as big a pump then which should cause you to loose ess power driving the smaller pump. Now if you can not afford to correct the rings at this time, I can understand utilizing the pump to temporarly keep the problem down to a minimum. But the next time you are in the engine, maybe you should think of replacing the factory rings with some good ones that will stop the problem all together.

Thats my advise, take it for what ever you think it is worth. And notice I refuse to down grade you, your abilities, or your car. I hope you continue to enjoy your ride.

2001CamaroGuy

iTrader: (6)

Adding headers and a cam compleatly changes the dynamics of the engine. LT headers scavange better so the cylinders will actually see low pressure at times (lower than the crank case) so the rings will flutter more. The cam will do the same thing.

Now, you are right in saying that the rings are THE problem. No matter what a person does, the rings will still be a problem.

SStrokerAce

iTrader: (2)

The crankcase evac system, or anything that pulls the pressure in the crankcase down and puts it in the exhaust is a good idea.

A vaccum pump with the catch can setup being the exhaust would not be a bad idea. As long as you don't have to pass smog. Putting it on the valve covers where the PCV would also be a good idea.

I'm with Rich on this one.

Bret

TaTommyWS6

Texas, you know what the problem is, you don't want to listen...
The original Topic of the thread is "Vacuum pump to evacuate the crankcase and pull rings to the" and he wanted to know iaf anyone "successfully used an ELECTRIC pump to do so."

Well, I DID. And it is working... I answered his question.

Look, I am in the computer business, and I can rip apart a TCP/IP packet and break down what every bit does, but it doesn't mean I know how to make a friggin' circle in photoshop! Point being, just because you "work on engine failure" issues, (which you may be great at), does not necessarily mean you are familiar with THIS particular issue. As we have seen through this thread many think a vacuum pump is a great idea...

I don't like to flame, and I don't like getting down on any fellow motorhead, but when you start yelling "bullshit" about factual topics, it is really frustrating....

It is a FACT then when the cylinder pressure is changed, modified, disturbed, whatever you want to call it by adding headers, cams, etc, the oil rings behave differently. Low tension oil rings are used often in high performance engines with a proper crankcase evac systems in place with no issues...

If us LS1 guys can find a reasonable solution to add something our engines (like an electric vacuum pump) that SOLVES this problem, and yields other benefits, like those mentioned previously in this thread, why not figure out a good way to do it. Sure we can call remove our engines, rip them completely apart, put different rings on, and button the engines back up, but for us guys with low miles on our engines who do not feel like tearing into it right now, we would like options. And this vacuum pump option is a perfectly viable one.

Oh, and so there is no miscommunication and since you are a stickler for detail:
My orginigal goal "MY GOAL IS NOT FOR INCREASED HP BUT TO STOP THE BLOW-BY THAT I HAVE BEEN GETTING AT WOT EVER SINCE I DID MY HEADERS AND CAM"
My new and improved goal ""MY GOAL IS NOT FOR INCREASED HP BUT TO STOP THE BLOW-BY THAT I HAVE BEEN GETTING AT WOT EVER SINCE I DID MY HEADERS AND CAM WITHOUT HAVING TO COMPLETELY RIP APART MY ENGINE"

God bless, and try to learn something new...

Tommy

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

I stand to be corrected. I took it as if in your case, Tommy, you had a problem you could not find any other answer to other then installing a crank case evacuation system on it. It sounded to me like you might have a mechanic that installed your parts for you, to who of which is trying to lay blame for the problem that acured on your modifications and not the real culprit to the problem. That mentality is what I call bullshit.
My point is, don't just take some companys word for it, or any mechanics word for it. Keep an open mind to the fact that most companies in the performance industrie have alot of products that do not do what they claim as well as mechanics that whatch out for their intrest and not yours.
I can truely understand how placing extra vacuum on the crankcase can benifit an engines performance. But I disagree with any company or mechanic that tells you that placing extra vacuum on the engine crankcase is the best thing to do for poor ring sealing. I can understand why one woud want to get as much life out of the rings before having to replace them. Please just keep in mind that when and if you ever have to go into the engine, it would be very benifitial to you to upgrade the rings to eliminate the problem all together.
Some precautions I would like to give everyone who is incressing their crankcase vacuum. Do not place the extracted air in the exhaust system before the O2 sensors or the Cats. The excess oil will kill the O2 sensor and destroy your converter. In the industrial world we always place it downstream of these parts. Take care to keep an eye on the oil level. You can pull all the oil out of the engine. If you are puling from the valve cover/s you can limit the oil from flowing back into the pan. To give you an example of this, a L7042GSI Waukesha holds 55 gallons of oil in the crankcase. The level is kept about 6"deep in the pan while the engine is running. At 13" H2O of vacuum on the crankcase, it takes less then 8 hours to suck all the oil out of the engine, 55 gallons. Also, at 13" of WATER COLLUM VACUUM I removed the 2" drain plug from the bottom of the pan and no oil could come out. I could see the wall of oil in the plug whole but there was enough vacuum to keep the oil from flowing out, even with the 6" level of oil above it! SO be very careful as to were and how much vacuum you do pull.

Now I have a method I would like to share with all of you to do exactlly what the vacuum pumps are intended to do. We take and make a Venturie that we place in the exhaust system. Then we run a ine to the crankase. We use basicaly a valve in this line going back to the crankcase that can be set to the desired vacuum. When the exhaust flows past the venturie it causes a vacuum on the crankcase. The nice thing about this set up is it is somewhat self regulating. As more exhaust goes throught the venturie, more cranckase air is pulled from the engine. This design woud not require engine HP to turn a pump. Think about it and if anyone wants a drawing of what I am talking about, just let me know and I will fax it to you.

Good luck, and sorry if I came off wrong to you Tommy. I hope we can benifit from each others knowledge in the future.