High rpm LS1 questions
High rpm LS1 questions Ok so I'm working on a buddies car and I have a couple questions since this is territory I don't typically venture into.
Current mod list
Stock LS1 shortblock
ARP rod bolts
Melling HV pump
GM ASA cam
241 heads, untouched
comp 918 springs
Manley 7.400" pushrods
Cadillac lifters
LS6 intake
1 3/4" headers
We are currently having oiling problems with the GTO pan being that this is a drift car and sees sustained rpm above 6000 rpm for long periods of time. Now the motor is blown up and we only want to build it once more.
What we my buddy was wanting to do go to a full dry sump system using a Petersen 5 stage pump, with a custom pan to fit this application. His goal for the motor is to spin to 8000 RPM and still make power up there. I know the cam isn't nearly big enough to make power that high, so that's the first thing on the list it to find an appropriate cam.
List of potential mods
Peterson 5 stage pump with custom pan
GM GAC cam or bigger
1 7/8" headers
TSP 2.5 5.3 heads
Wiseco pistons
Lightest H beams I can find
L19 rod bolts
Comp 921 springs
Throw the stock GM oiling system in the trash
I need opinions/suggestions on this. I know the question has probably been asked a million times before but the search engine sucks here.
Ohh yeah, and I forgot. The reason for the goal of 8000 rpm is to make sure there's plenty of room so he doesn't have to change gears all the time.
I'm trying to talk him into just turboing it and keeping it stock redline with taller gears, not having much luck though.
Current mod list
Stock LS1 shortblock
ARP rod bolts
Melling HV pump
GM ASA cam
241 heads, untouched
comp 918 springs
Manley 7.400" pushrods
Cadillac lifters
LS6 intake
1 3/4" headers
We are currently having oiling problems with the GTO pan being that this is a drift car and sees sustained rpm above 6000 rpm for long periods of time. Now the motor is blown up and we only want to build it once more.
What we my buddy was wanting to do go to a full dry sump system using a Petersen 5 stage pump, with a custom pan to fit this application. His goal for the motor is to spin to 8000 RPM and still make power up there. I know the cam isn't nearly big enough to make power that high, so that's the first thing on the list it to find an appropriate cam.
List of potential mods
Peterson 5 stage pump with custom pan
GM GAC cam or bigger
1 7/8" headers
TSP 2.5 5.3 heads
Wiseco pistons
Lightest H beams I can find
L19 rod bolts
Comp 921 springs
Throw the stock GM oiling system in the trash
I need opinions/suggestions on this. I know the question has probably been asked a million times before but the search engine sucks here.
Ohh yeah, and I forgot. The reason for the goal of 8000 rpm is to make sure there's plenty of room so he doesn't have to change gears all the time.
I'm trying to talk him into just turboing it and keeping it stock redline with taller gears, not having much luck though.
You need some serious help with that build... the dry sump with the lateral G the car will see is a good idea but someone needs to make sure your **** is in-line with the valvetrain and induction system. A set of shelf H-beams should more than handle that RPM so going overkill there is dumb but going underkill with the parts that allow it to make power at that RPM is another thing....
Ask around as to WHO has made hyd roller valvetrains work at that RPM.
Ask around as to WHO has made hyd roller valvetrains work at that RPM.
I agree with what was said above. You need to call up a shop/engine builder and talk to them. Also tell you friend to be prepared to buy a sheet metal intake if he plans to wrap the motor up that high.
Yay for convincing arguement to turbo the car and leave it at stock redline.
Car is geared with 4.13's right now, I think if it had the 3.11's available and made a butt load more torque he'd be just as happy as if it turned 8000 rpm with the same gearing it has now.
Plus I won't have to work on it after every event.
Car is geared with 4.13's right now, I think if it had the 3.11's available and made a butt load more torque he'd be just as happy as if it turned 8000 rpm with the same gearing it has now.
Plus I won't have to work on it after every event.
Ohh yeah. What's the chances of draining the sump into the heads with a melling hv pump and say.... 7000 rpm for almost a minute straight?
How's oil drainback on LS1's? I've worked on a bunch of other crap before but never been this deep into an LS1.
How's oil drainback on LS1's? I've worked on a bunch of other crap before but never been this deep into an LS1.
FWIW If I was driving that thing, I would NOT want a turbo slowing down my throttle response. In fact I would want the lightest & smallest clutch and flywheel I could in that thing to make the motor MORE responsive.
One of the reasons you see lots of swaps too larger cube motors in drift cars, look at the NOS 350Z with the Titan V8 in it. Forsberg has the right idea going that way instead of a turbo.
Bret
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Brett Foote I don't honestly think two small turbos or one appropriately sized twin scroll entry single turbo would make it that unresponsive. Maybe for the first gear until the turbos were spooled and moving some air, after that's done though its never below 75% throttle for less than a second.
Yeah, it would be nice to throw in some ultralight rods, high comp pistons, AFR's and a cam that's 250+ dur @ .050 with a sheet metal intake. But then I'd have to start an intensive maintenance regime checking valve springs constantly and keeping the solid roller valvetrain happy.
But for quite a bit cheaper I can fab up a set of headers to a couple small turbos, leave it wet sump with a better pan baffle and an accusump, leave it stock ls6 intake and throttle body, put a stock z06 cam back in it, leave the 918's to help with the boost and make just as much, if not more power. Then my maintenance after each event is just oil analysis....
hmmm....
Yeah, it would be nice to throw in some ultralight rods, high comp pistons, AFR's and a cam that's 250+ dur @ .050 with a sheet metal intake. But then I'd have to start an intensive maintenance regime checking valve springs constantly and keeping the solid roller valvetrain happy.
But for quite a bit cheaper I can fab up a set of headers to a couple small turbos, leave it wet sump with a better pan baffle and an accusump, leave it stock ls6 intake and throttle body, put a stock z06 cam back in it, leave the 918's to help with the boost and make just as much, if not more power. Then my maintenance after each event is just oil analysis....
hmmm....
I don't honestly think two small turbos or one appropriately sized twin scroll entry single turbo would make it that unresponsive. Maybe for the first gear until the turbos were spooled and moving some air, after that's done though its never below 75% throttle for less than a second.
Yeah, it would be nice to throw in some ultralight rods, high comp pistons, AFR's and a cam that's 250+ dur @ .050 with a sheet metal intake. But then I'd have to start an intensive maintenance regime checking valve springs constantly and keeping the solid roller valvetrain happy.
But for quite a bit cheaper I can fab up a set of headers to a couple small turbos, leave it wet sump with a better pan baffle and an accusump, leave it stock ls6 intake and throttle body, put a stock z06 cam back in it, leave the 918's to help with the boost and make just as much, if not more power. Then my maintenance after each event is just oil analysis....
Bret
IF turbo response was really that crappy why do rally car's use them? Why do the top handful of ALMS prototype cars have them (other than they're diesel)? Why does the car that's dominated GT Live for the past 3 years have a turbo (its in an unrestricted class...)?
Yes, it will probably never be as good as a super responsive built LS1 that's NA. It'll make a buttload more torque and the response won't be BAD.
Thanks for the comments everyone, I guess I'm just going to be talking with my local race engine builder.
No I'm just the fabricator and happened to be someone at the shop with an LS1Tech account.
IF turbo response was really that crappy why do rally car's use them? Why do the top handful of ALMS prototype cars have them (other than they're diesel)? Why does the car that's dominated GT Live for the past 3 years have a turbo (its in an unrestricted class...)?
IF turbo response was really that crappy why do rally car's use them? Why do the top handful of ALMS prototype cars have them (other than they're diesel)? Why does the car that's dominated GT Live for the past 3 years have a turbo (its in an unrestricted class...)?
I've talked to Stew (the owner/driver) about his motor and had him talk to Erik at HK Racing Engines already. I encourage you to consider what Erik has to say over anybody else you're likely to talk to.
Also, Stew claims to be happy with the power it has (~400w), why would you want to complicate his motor with a turbo setup if it's satisfactory as it is? Also, supposing he DOES want more power, a 50hp jump is just heads and cam -- and beyond that, displacement is a cheaper, lighter, simpler, and more reliable way to get it than a complicated turbo setup (to a point).
As for dry-sump, Losey's motor (HK built) has been going strong for nearly 2 years, 50+ drift/track events with 7200rpm redline on the very same GTO wet-sump oil system this car has. Just going on that, it's a bit presumptuous to blame Stew's recent engine trouble on the oiling system alone.
Last edited by drz; Apr 23, 2009 at 11:31 PM.
Banned
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 121
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From: Las Vegas
+1 +1 for that ive reached 7250 many times and have hd no problems sustained rpm's within a resonable of time a turbocar is a completley difftent car than a Natuarly asparated "na" u set it and go turbo on the other hand by my chances theres so many complacations that a minor thing and your like half of the shops who race here in vegas cooling down while your compeditor( ME) is staging up waiting for there Turboed rival too reach past the water gates ..imo NA is a very wise set up a 385 should be plenty of torque and if he wants to hang in the 72-7500 range get that stage flow oil system and then watch him slide past the competion u should install 2 seprate wet kits for him so he is happy and incase he needs it its a botton away PLus that nice sheat metal intake will be easily moded to ur likies for the direct spray 
Happy Building +1
Happy Building I'm going to go a little out on a limb and speculate that all those cars you listed have many, many times the developement dollars and hours into their turbo system than you are prepared to invest.
I've talked to Stew (the owner/driver) about his motor and had him talk to Erik at HK Racing Engines already. I encourage you to consider what Erik has to say over anybody else you're likely to talk to.
Also, Stew claims to be happy with the power it has (~400w), why would you want to complicate his motor with a turbo setup if it's satisfactory as it is? Also, supposing he DOES want more power, a 50hp jump is just heads and cam -- and beyond that, displacement is a cheaper, lighter, simpler, and more reliable way to get it than a complicated turbo setup (to a point).
As for dry-sump, Losey's motor (HK built) has been going strong for nearly 2 years, 50+ drift/track events with 7200rpm redline on the very same GTO wet-sump oil system this car has. Just going on that, it's a bit presumptuous to blame Stew's recent engine trouble on the oiling system alone.
I've talked to Stew (the owner/driver) about his motor and had him talk to Erik at HK Racing Engines already. I encourage you to consider what Erik has to say over anybody else you're likely to talk to.
Also, Stew claims to be happy with the power it has (~400w), why would you want to complicate his motor with a turbo setup if it's satisfactory as it is? Also, supposing he DOES want more power, a 50hp jump is just heads and cam -- and beyond that, displacement is a cheaper, lighter, simpler, and more reliable way to get it than a complicated turbo setup (to a point).
As for dry-sump, Losey's motor (HK built) has been going strong for nearly 2 years, 50+ drift/track events with 7200rpm redline on the very same GTO wet-sump oil system this car has. Just going on that, it's a bit presumptuous to blame Stew's recent engine trouble on the oiling system alone.
No I'm just the fabricator and happened to be someone at the shop with an LS1Tech account.
IF turbo response was really that crappy why do rally car's use them? Why do the top handful of ALMS prototype cars have them (other than they're diesel)? Why does the car that's dominated GT Live for the past 3 years have a turbo (its in an unrestricted class...)?
Yes, it will probably never be as good as a super responsive built LS1 that's NA. It'll make a buttload more torque and the response won't be BAD.
Thanks for the comments everyone, I guess I'm just going to be talking with my local race engine builder.
IF turbo response was really that crappy why do rally car's use them? Why do the top handful of ALMS prototype cars have them (other than they're diesel)? Why does the car that's dominated GT Live for the past 3 years have a turbo (its in an unrestricted class...)?
Yes, it will probably never be as good as a super responsive built LS1 that's NA. It'll make a buttload more torque and the response won't be BAD.
Thanks for the comments everyone, I guess I'm just going to be talking with my local race engine builder.
all those other cars, well they cant make a high displacement motor that doesnt weigh 1 million pounds so the turbo is the easiest option.
that said if you have the motor above 4000 rpms and somewhat loaded at all times i cant imagine hardly any lag if you size the turbos right... either that or go with a blower... atleast with a blower you dont have to wait for boost.d
