Any data on the Darton MID block setups?
I would think you "could"......but that would take A LOT of down time between cuts to allow the block to cool and time = money.
Our little Bidgeport Mill does not have coolant and it does not take long before the material I am cutting on (steel, aluminum, brass, etc...) gets pretty hot and I either have to wipe A LOT of oil on it to cool it/keep it cool and/or just let it sit for a while and cool.
Our little Bidgeport Mill does not have coolant and it does not take long before the material I am cutting on (steel, aluminum, brass, etc...) gets pretty hot and I either have to wipe A LOT of oil on it to cool it/keep it cool and/or just let it sit for a while and cool.
Originally Posted by 99 Black Bird T/A
Thanks Steve! That's an amazing picture - WOW!
I understand the heat build up could be an issue.
Could one cut slowly to avoid the excessive heat build up without the cooling fluid?
I understand the heat build up could be an issue.
Could one cut slowly to avoid the excessive heat build up without the cooling fluid?
I have attached a couple of more pictures for you so you can see how much material removal I am talking about.
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Launching!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 250
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From: Oceanside CA
(Oops, by the time I posted this, I see Steve already covered the cooling part)
Actually, allowing for down-time to allow for cooling off would be a mistake also, as you want the metal to remain at a constant range of temp throughout the machining process, not just keep it from exceeding a certain peak. Steve taught me early on the machining portion of the sleeve process must be concluded in one “sitting”, or you risk casting shift or deflection from multiple temperature cycles such as you might incur by doing one bank of the block in the evening and the remaining bank the next morning.
To elaborate on the MetaLax process (I went up to watch it “happen” and talked to the engineers), it is actually a series of sub-sonic waves that are induced throughout the block by attachment of electrical leads. The rigid table the block, or whatever is being processed, is attached to serves as a solid foundation for the process. In this way, the waves are contained within the object and not absorbed or partially consumed by a “shaky” support that would diminish the integrity of the sound waves.
The frequency of the wave is slowly increased (to around < 200MHz) repeatedly until a repeatable wave trace is produced. Okay, in English that means that this box provides an X-Y graph *(X =time, Y=MHz) to produce a single line that looks like a lie-detector printout. A perfectly “harmonic” or stress-relieved material would produce a linear upward curve as the frequency is increased over time. This would show all the molecules in the substance are in alignment providing a nice, consistent path for the waves to pass through.
This is never the case as any temperature-fluctuating process that has been introduced into the substance will cause metal “stress”, or molecular disruption. I.e. if you drill through a piece of billet, you are naturally, going to “tear” the metal into differing molecular alignment as the cutting instrument passes against the material (which is actually a byproduct of the heat caused by that process). Welding or casting will cause the same result, in differing patterns of course.
You get vertical jumps and depressions along the curve when the waves intersect with molecules that are not aligned. With repeated, consistent increasing-frequency passes, the molecules are coaxed into realignment, or as close as can be achieved. What you are actually looking for is several passes that produce the same pattern so that if the graphs of each pass were laid over one another, the would pretty much show a repeating pattern. Once that is achieved, the material has relaxed back into as sound a state as is reasonable. Interestingly, there is no set pattern or frequency you look for in a given metal, alloy, or substance, it’s the repeating pattern that matters (I know, I just had to ask them on that one).
To prove the old saw “a picture is worth a thousand words”, here is a rough example of what one of these graphs looks like. You will notice series 2 & 3 are closer to being normalized than series 1
Actually, allowing for down-time to allow for cooling off would be a mistake also, as you want the metal to remain at a constant range of temp throughout the machining process, not just keep it from exceeding a certain peak. Steve taught me early on the machining portion of the sleeve process must be concluded in one “sitting”, or you risk casting shift or deflection from multiple temperature cycles such as you might incur by doing one bank of the block in the evening and the remaining bank the next morning.
To elaborate on the MetaLax process (I went up to watch it “happen” and talked to the engineers), it is actually a series of sub-sonic waves that are induced throughout the block by attachment of electrical leads. The rigid table the block, or whatever is being processed, is attached to serves as a solid foundation for the process. In this way, the waves are contained within the object and not absorbed or partially consumed by a “shaky” support that would diminish the integrity of the sound waves.
The frequency of the wave is slowly increased (to around < 200MHz) repeatedly until a repeatable wave trace is produced. Okay, in English that means that this box provides an X-Y graph *(X =time, Y=MHz) to produce a single line that looks like a lie-detector printout. A perfectly “harmonic” or stress-relieved material would produce a linear upward curve as the frequency is increased over time. This would show all the molecules in the substance are in alignment providing a nice, consistent path for the waves to pass through.
This is never the case as any temperature-fluctuating process that has been introduced into the substance will cause metal “stress”, or molecular disruption. I.e. if you drill through a piece of billet, you are naturally, going to “tear” the metal into differing molecular alignment as the cutting instrument passes against the material (which is actually a byproduct of the heat caused by that process). Welding or casting will cause the same result, in differing patterns of course.
You get vertical jumps and depressions along the curve when the waves intersect with molecules that are not aligned. With repeated, consistent increasing-frequency passes, the molecules are coaxed into realignment, or as close as can be achieved. What you are actually looking for is several passes that produce the same pattern so that if the graphs of each pass were laid over one another, the would pretty much show a repeating pattern. Once that is achieved, the material has relaxed back into as sound a state as is reasonable. Interestingly, there is no set pattern or frequency you look for in a given metal, alloy, or substance, it’s the repeating pattern that matters (I know, I just had to ask them on that one).
To prove the old saw “a picture is worth a thousand words”, here is a rough example of what one of these graphs looks like. You will notice series 2 & 3 are closer to being normalized than series 1
Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
Man, this threads gets better and better with EVERY post from Scott and Steven!
I know what you mean! This thread is THE reason I decided to go all bore over stroker or an iron block for my new engine. Thanks for all the info guys.
Originally Posted by gomer
I know what you mean! This thread is THE reason I decided to go all bore over stroker or an iron block for my new engine. Thanks for all the info guys.
My back is hurting just with the thought of lifting an iron block on and off my CNC
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 540
Likes: 0
From: Native Texan
I understand that a seasoned 98 LS1 block will be prime choice but this raises a few quetions for me. The LS1 first appeared in 97 in the Vette. The only changes that I knew of from 97-99 is that the 99 could be bored slightly more (.0040 for the 97-98 and .010 for the 99-03) .
Now my question is:
Is the same advantage of the 98 also present in the other years of the non LS6 block or is it only present in the 97-98 year model?
Now my question is:
Is the same advantage of the 98 also present in the other years of the non LS6 block or is it only present in the 97-98 year model?
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Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
TTT for any updates 
Then two weeks ago we took a week end trip of about 500 miles round trip, the car ran and performed perfect. Thanks John.
Staging Lane
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
From: SA,TX
Originally Posted by JOHN LAWSON
I took my Cartek Darton sleve 427 NA C5 to the tuner shoot out in South Carolina back in Febuary. I proably made over 20 passes, with a new best of 10.39 at 131 mph.
Then two weeks ago we took a week end trip of about 500 miles round trip, the car ran and performed perfect. Thanks John.
Then two weeks ago we took a week end trip of about 500 miles round trip, the car ran and performed perfect. Thanks John.
So how many miles are on that motor now?
Steve, great info! I wish more people were like you. You rock all the way! Expect an order from me in a few months for a MID block. Thank you so much for all of your excellent info!!!!
Wes
Wes
Thread Starter
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,000
Likes: 1
From: Lexington, Ky
Originally Posted by WMSuperSport
Steve, great info! I wish more people were like you. You rock all the way! Expect an order from me in a few months for a MID block. Thank you so much for all of your excellent info!!!!
Wes
Wes
TECH Resident
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 840
Likes: 0
I'm probably going to build on a 6.0 truck block... I'll just cut weight somewhere else on the car and still save alot of money over alot of custom block work.
I'm still waiting for a World Products Motown "LSX" block....
SBC shown but imagine block just like the 6.0 truck block but with cylinder wall thickness like this.
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/03...otownblock.pdf
But untill that happens I'll bore and stroke a truck block.... I'd build an LT1 to save money but with 3 valve LSX heads coming out from GM on the horizon... Might as well have a block in the car they will swap to.
I'm still waiting for a World Products Motown "LSX" block....
SBC shown but imagine block just like the 6.0 truck block but with cylinder wall thickness like this.
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/03...otownblock.pdf
But untill that happens I'll bore and stroke a truck block.... I'd build an LT1 to save money but with 3 valve LSX heads coming out from GM on the horizon... Might as well have a block in the car they will swap to.
We have a couple of Darton sleeve blocks with twin turbo running well over 1000hp. No issues. And it is possible to use a iron block for the sleeves less block flex. Some pictures of the iron sleeved motor.
Nate
Nate
Teching In
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
I'm building a motor using these sleeves and was directed here from the Corvette forum, I just wanted to thank everyone, especially Steve for all of the info, you've really put my mind at ease and answered alot of questions I had. 
Well I'm happy with the power I made. I put about 500 miles on mine. I made four track passes. On the last pass N/A NEVER sprayed the 427, I got some coolant smoke after I restarted the car after sitting for five minutes. I have the motor out now. Everything looks fine. I called Steve and he said to run the evans and the MID gaskets. I have the new "correct" gaskets now! After the car cooled off overnight I started it and found no smoke or smell. But, I didn't drive it hard. Thats where I sit now. I had the heads shaved a couple thou. just to be safe. But now I'm waiting for the 225 AFR's, thats another story. It's weird, the standard cometic gasket had a small area at the top of the cylinder that looked like it was smashed "distorted" but not blown. I'm assuming thats where the coolant was coming from. As soon as the heads are done it's going back together.