Rileyt

iTrader: (2)

i have a 98 ls1 camaro with 92mm intake and tb 605 lift comp cam and port and polish heads and full bolt ons. wanting to upgrade to some better heads. what are the best heads for this set up was thinking about going with some afr heads but wanted some opinions first! money not really an issue

WS6TransAm01

iTrader: (13)

looks like the fastest H/C NA cars are either running ported LS6 [243] heads or Trick Flows...

Rileyt

iTrader: (2)

how much power are they making?

99blancoSS

iTrader: (115)

AFR, TFS, All Pro and PRC all have had great results Read the sticky and get some information about flow numbers before you make any decisions. WHat is the car being used for and what cam (not just lift) is in there.

bigboykilroy

iTrader: (48)

TEA !!!! (Total Engine Airflow)

WS6TransAm01

iTrader: (13)

My 243's made 507HP through a 12-bolt and 4.56 gears... but its not about the power they make on the dyno only... its about performance at the track.

Look at the fastest H/C list... most have some sort of GM factory head, ported. Some have Trick Flows [ROBZ*]

The Texas Speed car has their own heads I believe, but they are still based on a 243 from what I understood.

AFR, All Pro, and the like make good heads, but for NA applications, they just dont cut it. For boost and juice they seem to work very well, when air flow is not as important as it is in NA applications...

Flame away, but I have yet to see a very fast AFR headed 346 NA car [aiside for TTP].

madmaro00

iTrader: (6)

If going aftermarket and don't want to spend the $ on AFRs, Patriot makes killer heads for a good price. IMHO the 243s are the best bang for the buck.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

We are all entitled to our opinions.....

The reality is alot of AFR headed owners are more interested in the bigger picture....that is milder more broader scope packages....not a pure scream machine with a big cam optimized for drag racing. Also, most people in the country dont get a chance to visit some of the air you guys see (seriously negative D/A) in the cooler months.

I have helped a handful of people with aggressive combo's that have ran well....Jarrod Cunningham being on of them (Jrod on the board) and this guy has been around the block. Waiting to finally get some good runs with the car as every time since we put the AFR headed combo together the owner of the car has grenaded two rear ends (Jarrod drives and helps with some of the mechanicals). I do know that with some adverse conditions on a few runs they actually got off the car went 128 trap I believe (C5 Z06) and it looked like there was alot left. I mention this car because its one of the few more aggressive single focused combinations that come to mind. He could better fill you guys in...

Tough to find an unhappy owner with any of our product.....and there is quite a bit of it out there. That in it self speaks volumes in my opinion

-Tony

J-Rod

Actually we broke 3 rears. So, after spending $7500 on rears and geting 1 pass out of them we pretty much stopped drag racing the car.

But, here is a thread where I outline the performance improvement of switching from a ported 243 casting to a AFR 205.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...am-128mph.html

The bottom line is the car went faster in worse air with AFR's than it did with some of the best ported 243's out there...

J-Rod

I'd like to add that this topic comes up every week. I think I need to make a sticky. The bottom line is that most of the aftermarket castings are just simply better in design than the stock casting. That means TFS, AFR, etc... So, I'm not just cheerleading AFR.

Go look at the thin roof on the 243. Go look a the improved short turn on the AFR and other aftermarket castings. Go look a thte thicker decks, and material in all the critical areas.

I could go on for pages. But aftermarket castings are better than 243's period.

Sales2@Texas-speed

iTrader: (5)

The "quickest" stock short-block NA LS1 (in a late model vehicle that came with these engines) actually runs the PRC 215 heads...see sig.

And to clarify, they are not an LS6 head. They are a complete aftermarket casting (like AFR and TrickFlow), with completely different ports as compared to the PRC ported GM castings. Let us know if we can help with your build. We offer ported GM castings at reasonable prices as well as all of these premium price/premium performance aftermarket heads.

PREDATOR-Z

Every shop will pimp their products, IMO from experience one should look at independent results and feedback (dyno and track) to see the clear picture.
Another trick is to understand, that requires a bit of reading on the subject.
One thing I learned (and it took awhile ) that basing your choice just on flow numbers is like choosing a cam for the way it sounds.
Kinda like buying a car because the paint looks good.
Just plain misinformation.

WS6TransAm01

iTrader: (13)

My mistake Matt, I honestly thought there were somewhere along the lines of a GM casting. Good to know

Tony, I really don't want to argue but my opinion is more fact that fiction... What ever the reason, there just aren't any really fast AFR headed H/C cars out there. When you say that AFR customers are not in it to make an all out H/C car that sounds a little silly to me. Because the same can be said about the reverse. That means that all the guys who do want to build an all out H/C package do not go with AFR...

Thats not to say you guys don't make an awesome head, it just seems to me, based on my observation, that they do not do as well in NA applications when compared to a Trick Flow, or ever a well ported and well set-up 243.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

What I'm saying is I find a higher percentage of AFR customers are looking for a more well rounded package. And of course some are looking to make big power and dont give a rats azzz about low speed torque and drivability. That would be a car like Jarrod's who has had great results in spite of all the driveline failures.

Look at it this way....how many combinations out there with ported OEM castings leave alot to be desired(yes...some run well).....and what type of percentage with AFR heads on their cars have had sub par results?

AFR's are proven, well built, perform well, and are backed by a 40 year old company that has ethics and customer service most companies could only dream about. We bend over backwards to please our customers and take pride in the product we build for them.

If Jarrod decides he wants to go drag racing again maybe we can have a fun grudge match sometime....LOL

Have a good weekend guys...

-Tony

PS.....And speaking of records, five years later no one has broken mine (that I know of) making 475 - 480 RWHP with a 224 camshaft and a set of out of the box 205 heads. Cant call bull on the numbers because the car was on like five different dynos in two different States....and the car ran 124 trap at a very so-so 1600 positive D/A. Give me one of this November nights in Jersey and a negative 1600 D/A and the car would have trapped close to 129 MPH with the same combo that drove like stock and got 25+ MPG still if I drive it like an old lady. Show me some ported OEM castings knocking down those types numbers (with a small cam). What would my car have made with more static CR and a high 230's low 240's stick if I wanted to build a very aggressive package? Easily 30 more HP and another few miles an hour trap speed at the drags....

Here is a 124 trap run from that package recorded on an in car camera....listen to the docile idle before staging (yes....I redlighted....LOL)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=209aBeeUfU4

383lt1impala

iTrader: (33)

Ding ding ding!!!!! Its what ever they get a better percentage from!!!!

Rileyt

iTrader: (2)

OK well maybe i was unclear about all this and should of said more. i am not wanting just a drag car. i want a car that will see the strip a couple of times a year but for the most part i want it to be streetable. one guy asked about cam size. i didnt put the cam in it was in when i bought it but they guy thought that it was a 233 237 with 605 lift. and there are a lot of different opinions on this subject so this is really making this decision that much harder. sorry guys kinda new at this whole thing so still learning. Thanks

99blancoSS

iTrader: (115)

Budget also comes into play. I can pm you with some information, I carry most of them (will be carrying the PRC soon) and have run cnc'ed oem heads and proprietary castings on a 346/347 with 3 different size cams on the streets and can help fill in the holes on the differences between them.

AFR and TFS are the most popular for a reason, the PRC casting is still semi new to the public but will see some more results out there pretty soon I think. TSP has had great results with them but we know how the skeptics are about a company providing information about their own products. But bash AFR's is just plain silly

Mumbles

iTrader: (5)

So where's a good place to look for a good price on a set of 243's? Not meaning to hijack, but it's still related

J-Rod

mumbles, go to the for sale section if you wanted used heads...

RileyT -
If you car is a street car, and you want to have good throttle response, good power under the curve, and good drivabilty I would point you at one of the aftermarket castings.

WS6TransAm01 - I find your comments almost laughable. It amazes me that every time I see you you have your pom-poms out trying to pimp your shop of choice. You are honestly one of the biggest fanboi's i've seen in quite some time.

You've made some really amusing points in this thread and others. so, I'm going to take the opportunity to point out how grossly out of touch your "opinion" is with reality.

First off, you said Have you ever actually flowed a set of AFR heads, and a set of ported 243 heads? I have. I have the data to back it up as well. The 243's have a MUCH bigger runner in terms of total volume than the AFR's. This equates to soggy performance down low, and about the same flow at high rpm.

Now, lets use the same car, same data again... (As I've pointed out before as well.) We brought Tommy's car to South Carolina to run the very best Cartek packages on the same day at the same track. Brett's best time in his car was 10.55. At that track on the same day in the same DA our 2 cars were pretty darn close in terms of performance. They were in the 10.7's in the heat and the postive DA. As a point of fact, the car I was driving was the quickest in terms of ET on that day (10.67@127 at +400 DA)... I'm sure there is still some contention over that issue. But, thats never going to be settled, so we'll just leave it at that.

Now, we bring the same car back to Texas. We change the 243's out to AFR's. The car makes more power on the dyno, and at the track than it did with the 243's. We went 10.80's @ 128MPH in +2400 DA . We picked up several tenths and 2-3 mph from times in comparable air...

The F-body market is a market over run with cars getting cheaper by the day. So, often you just don't see folks getting all fired up about building N/A 346's any more. Especially with Ls2's and larger stroke cranks so popular. As a result the people sticking with stock cube motors are often doing so on a budget. Its not a matter of performance, its a matter of money...

If I took your argument just for what it was. Then by your logic folks should not even port the stock castings. They should leave them as is because the fastest F-Body's are NHRA stockers running in the 9's on unported 241castings not even 243's. Al Corda went off in the 9's in his NHRA stocker running unported 241's...

Heck Juggernaut went faster on his cam only car than you've been in your H/C car. Juggernaut - Cam only (N/A)(stock long block) 10.295@128.48.(1.38)

Look at LG racing his 2004 Z06 Vette with a forged 347 with out of the box AFR's. This was in a Vette on an IRS, not a solid axle car.

60...1.858
1/8...7.2
1/8mph 111.16
1/4 10.49
1/4 140.33

They broke several rears in the car trying to get a clean pass. This was bogging the car out of the hole to get it down the track. This happened back in 2004. The car made 530RWHP. Look at the MPH... So, AFR's don't make power N/A, are you sure about that???

Here are the facts. A cylinder head doesn't know if its at the drag strip, the road course, or the street. All it is is a chunk of aluminum that directs air into a cylinder. How effectively that happens is what we're discussing. Power is power regardless. so, just because someone hasn't built a car to conform to your narrow standards for judging all out performance doesn't make your opinion factual or based in reality in the least.

The simple fact of the matter is that when talking about a GM casting no matter what you do you are starting with stock casting which has a volume of around 210 cc. To improve on it is going to require that you make it bigger. Most of the time this puts a ported casting at ~230+ cc. I've seen all sorts of claims about 215 and 220cc ported stock castings. In fact I was supposed to have a set of them. Reality is just simply that this isn't normally the case.

So, now you have a head with 230 cc. Does it flow, well maybe. As we've seen from Tony's headflow sheet, whats promised, and whats delivered is often separated by a wide margin. This is not just isolated to the LS community.

Head porters are flow numbers are some of the biggest areas of "misinformation" out there. People don't seem to care at all about runner volume and cross section. All they can tell you about is what the head flows at .700 or .800. Well, whooptie friggin' do. Unless your cam achieves .700 or .800 at the valve then those numbers are meaningless unless of course its to post on message forums, or "bench race" with your buddies in a parking lot...

Aftermarket casting have the option of putting material where the stock heads needs it, and optimizing a port for performance. The factory is often looking for lowest possible emissions with a balance towards power. They also leave the castings thinner to save on material costs.

If the stock castings were the best thing going, then why wouldn't all the mfg's just buy raw castings and work them over? The answer is quite simple. Because the product can be improved.

Bottom line is anyone should do their homework on what they want and what the want to achieve.

Your cheapest option is to leave the heads stock.
The next cheapest option is probably some of the cnc ported truck heads.
The next option and (IMHO the best option) is an aftermarket casting.

After that you get into hand ported casting (stock or aftermarket). Those tend to cost the most as you are paying for someone's time.

If someone just is absolutely convinced that porter XXX is better then what they should do is not waste money on a stock casting to start with. They should just ante up for a set of unported aftermarket castings (which you can buy VERY reasonably). Then take those to your head porter of choice and see what "magic" they can perform on them. Then after you've spent the money to get a decent porter to work a set of heads over, take the heads to an independant bench and see what your money got you.


The fact is that an aftermarket casting is going to improve on so many areas like the short turn, and the thin area up on the roof of the port that you just can't even begin to compare them...

But, this argument gets to be like headers, camshafts, and all the other arguments that seem to pop up on here ona weekly basis. Some people just seem to suffer from what is called Cognative Dissonance.

A powerful cause of dissonance is an idea in conflict with a fundamental element of the self-concept, such as "I made the right decision." The anxiety that comes with the possibility of having made a bad decision can lead to rationalization, the tendency to create additional reasons or justifications to support one's choices. A person who just spent too much money on a set of heads from X might decide that the new heads are better than the heads from shop Y. This belief may or may not be true, but it would likely reduce dissonance and make the person feel better. Dissonance can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms.

Thats the biggest issue folks run into. They can't handle the fact that their opinion, or their selection might not be the best one.

WS6TransAm01

iTrader: (13)

JRod, I appreciate your diatribe, you can continue to spew this for ever and ever... We all know your past when it comes to CARTEK, however; this has nothing to do with it seeing as how I clearly said that yes, they port a mean 243, but when it comes to aftermarket heads, for NA 346 applications, the Trick Flow head is better based on my observations. CARTEK does not manufacturer Trick Flow Heads, and Trick Flow is not giving me a free set of heads, so the "pom-pom" comment is completly irelevant...

Thats a good point.. the 243Head does have a bigger runner than a 243head...

If you are going to "teach" at least proof read... I can't spell, but I don't try to "Teach"

Very true, have you ever taken your own advice?

I made a statement based on my observations over many years of racing, if you don't like it, I can care less... Aside for what is most likely a very light car by LG, and like I said before, TTP's AFR headed car that went 10.35 with a light curb weight as well, I have not see many stellar 346 NA performances... Including your car...

On the other hand, A lot of others have gone very fast with factory castings, and aftermarket heads like Trick Flow.

You like AFR and you are telling everyone to get them, I LOEV my 243's and I am telling this guy to look at Trick Flow... Who is the cheerleader, not I.