Direct call out to FlowTech & EDS - flowbench shoot out
11-19-2003, 05:17 PM
#1
Direct call out to FlowTech & EDS - flowbench shoot out Dear EDS,
I'm very serious about you sending a set of heads for flow testing...I'll be sure and make it crystal clear to everyone on the forum...I made this offer for you to put your heads on an independent bench beside TEA's...and that I would post the results.
Send me a set of your heads and I'll have them flowed by some friends of mine that do Busch/Nascar engines and post your results right beside the set of TEA heads I have had flowed. The heads will be flowed with and without various intakes.
Other sponsors that wish to face an independant flow bench are more than welcome. Customers with select ported heads are welcome too play too...PM me if interested.
[Edited by jmX - Drama removed.]
I'm very serious about you sending a set of heads for flow testing...I'll be sure and make it crystal clear to everyone on the forum...I made this offer for you to put your heads on an independent bench beside TEA's...and that I would post the results.
Send me a set of your heads and I'll have them flowed by some friends of mine that do Busch/Nascar engines and post your results right beside the set of TEA heads I have had flowed. The heads will be flowed with and without various intakes.
Other sponsors that wish to face an independant flow bench are more than welcome. Customers with select ported heads are welcome too play too...PM me if interested.
[Edited by jmX - Drama removed.]
Last edited by jmX; 11-19-2003 at 05:32 PM.
. Ed knows his stuff.
11-19-2003, 05:35 PM
#4
LS1Tech Co-Founder
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By the way EDC is not the same Flowtech that Vince used.
Oh, and I can do independent head testing, if anyone wants to try. I'm so independent, none of you guys even know where I got my 6.0 heads.
Oh, and I can do independent head testing, if anyone wants to try. I'm so independent, none of you guys even know where I got my 6.0 heads.
11-19-2003, 05:54 PM
#5
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
By the way EDC is not the same Flowtech that Vince used.
Oh, and I can do independent head testing, if anyone wants to try. I'm so independent, none of you guys even know where I got my 6.0 heads.
Oh, and I can do independent head testing, if anyone wants to try. I'm so independent, none of you guys even know where I got my 6.0 heads.
11-19-2003, 06:07 PM
#6
Originally Posted by 99 Black Bird T/A
Flow TECH induction ====>ED, FLOW TECHnics===>obviouslly someone else who isn't that good. Ed's pretty good in the mustang world. I think he will come on strong in the LS-1 community as well. Not to mention that Ed is already putting together a head shootout of ALL the heads he can get his hands on. I don't see why he would need to send you a set? 
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11-19-2003, 09:43 PM
#9
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
I'm glad this is finally happening. I asked about this over a year ago. I wanted to solict heads from al the vendors, and submit them to a flow test on the same bench, and have someone who is indenpendant inspect the heads and comment on the quality.
One of the issues that came to light was a shop sending a set of "ringer" heads when they know they are going to be tested. Ideally if a vendor has a set of heads already in stock, that would be better than a set that of heads that have had "special" attention paid to them.
I think it would be beneficial to the community as a whole if folks could test them all at the same time provided its done on the up and up...
One of the issues that came to light was a shop sending a set of "ringer" heads when they know they are going to be tested. Ideally if a vendor has a set of heads already in stock, that would be better than a set that of heads that have had "special" attention paid to them.
I think it would be beneficial to the community as a whole if folks could test them all at the same time provided its done on the up and up...
11-19-2003, 11:37 PM
#10
Originally Posted by Beast96Z
Looks like you should have got the right flow tech before you made your slanderous comments. Flow TECH induction ====>ED, FLOW TECHnics===>obviouslly someone else who isn't that good. Ed's pretty good in the mustang world. I think he will come on strong in the LS-1 community as well. Not to mention that Ed is already putting together a head shootout of ALL the heads he can get his hands on. I don't see why he would need to send you a set?
Flow TECH induction ====>ED, FLOW TECHnics===>obviouslly someone else who isn't that good. Ed's pretty good in the mustang world. I think he will come on strong in the LS-1 community as well. Not to mention that Ed is already putting together a head shootout of ALL the heads he can get his hands on. I don't see why he would need to send you a set? As for Ed doing a shoot out of his own that's excellent...I look forward to seeing the data. If he has the data to back up what he says more power to him. My issue isn't if Ed is right it's not showing direct objective evidence to back up his current claims.
He really doesn't have to send me a set that's for sure. If he does the data will either back up and make his case or it will dispute his findings. I know if I had a product and it actually lived up to it's billing I'd want to put on as many benches/dynos/cars as I could to show I had something. Of course if one shirks this then some may conclude their is something to hide.
BTW really only need one head for flow testing.
I have extensively flowed my set of TEA 5.3's and I can get his head flowed and provide a direct comparison on the same bench. Anyone that's read my post over the last year knows I'm far from a TEA cheerleader. A guy that sells heads taking cheap shots at a sponsors that sell heads really needs to have his data to put up before he slams and slanders IMO. Clearly as this guys is a TEA competor in the Ford world this applies to him.
wonder why he's afraid to send a set of his stuff out for independant testing. Send them to PSJ, I really couldn't careless. If he attacks TEA or other sponsors without presenting data he's just another troll.
If he actually has hard data to post to back up his claims and statements that's another thing.
JMX, really it was a much more interesting read with the drama left in.
Oh and if Ed actually publically apologies for slandering TEA in his earlier posts...I'll fully apologies for my comments publically as well.
11-19-2003, 11:49 PM
#11
Actually what would be really cool is if Ed has set up a shoot out would be to send the same heads to others with flowbenchs for testing. Having data from 3-5 different benchs on the same heads would eliminate any skewing of the results operators.
The testing might go something like this...and would for all time lay some of these issues to rest by testing on the following benches.
EDC
TEA
Thunder
PSJ
BlackBirds
The testing might go something like this...and would for all time lay some of these issues to rest by testing on the following benches.
EDC
TEA
Thunder
PSJ
BlackBirds
11-20-2003, 12:42 AM
#13
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I don't believe Ed currently ports LS1/LS6 heads.
Once AFR releases their LS1 heads he will test them.....but you too can simply buy an AFR head & flow it on your own bench. Ed shouldn't have to send you one of his....
Ah..what do I know.
What would be REALLY nice is if ALL you guys testing these heads would measure intake & exhaust runner volume. After all, what good if head flow without velocity?
Once AFR releases their LS1 heads he will test them.....but you too can simply buy an AFR head & flow it on your own bench. Ed shouldn't have to send you one of his....
Ah..what do I know.
What would be REALLY nice is if ALL you guys testing these heads would measure intake & exhaust runner volume. After all, what good if head flow without velocity?
11-20-2003, 01:12 PM
#15
PSJ,
While you may assume I'm biased, I actually let objective data speak for itself. I'm biased against a lack of objective data.
With that said, if you can put together an unbaised head shoot out, I say let's go for it. Real hard data would shut up a lot of the constant bickering on this board. Everyone wants the data and have for years.
I think the the only true way to do this right is to have the heads tested on about five benches. Post all the data.
Also throw out the lowest set of numbers and the highest set of numbers for each head and average the results.
Actually, this would be an outstanding project for LS1tech as it would clearly help the membership with their future decisions.
While you may assume I'm biased, I actually let objective data speak for itself. I'm biased against a lack of objective data.
With that said, if you can put together an unbaised head shoot out, I say let's go for it. Real hard data would shut up a lot of the constant bickering on this board. Everyone wants the data and have for years.
I think the the only true way to do this right is to have the heads tested on about five benches. Post all the data.
Also throw out the lowest set of numbers and the highest set of numbers for each head and average the results.
Actually, this would be an outstanding project for LS1tech as it would clearly help the membership with their future decisions.
11-20-2003, 01:17 PM
#16
Originally Posted by verbs
This will never happen, but it's a great idea.
i would love to see the results of an individual head shootout on the same bench, ideally heads that porters dont know are gonna be tested, but it will never happen
11-20-2003, 02:09 PM
#17
Okay say this is done, and one flows more at max and one has more cfm at .300 and .400. Who's going to make more power? Is one worth more then the other for power? The answer is nobody knows. . .if the damn heads are not utilized by the correct camshaft for the desired power band then either set, high numbers or low numbers, are not worth the buck. Heads are but one part of a much larger picture.
Cstraub
Cstraub
11-20-2003, 02:29 PM
#18
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all it takes is money!
here is what I would do if I was a mag or a web site and wanted the truth.
I would call up a few head shops and order a set of heads from each. I wouldn't tell them what I was buying them for (head shootout) I would just order everyones stage 2 heads.
Then I would have them flowed after they all arrived. I would also note the time frame it took for all of them to show up and the quality of work that went into the heads. I would also make up a problem with each set of heads after the fact like hey I am leaking coolant in exhaust port #1 and see what they say to do .
Then not only could I post on the numbers for each head I would also be able to post both initial service times and service after the fact as this is what you are paying for when you step up to a top name shop.
Personally I think it is funny when someone like Ed comes on and slams TEA time after time. threads get closed before TEA can speakup for themselves so the slam goes uncontended.
I can also understand Ed's anger as he has has been watching the back of TEA renegade cars for more than a couple of years.
here is what I would do if I was a mag or a web site and wanted the truth.
I would call up a few head shops and order a set of heads from each. I wouldn't tell them what I was buying them for (head shootout) I would just order everyones stage 2 heads.
Then I would have them flowed after they all arrived. I would also note the time frame it took for all of them to show up and the quality of work that went into the heads. I would also make up a problem with each set of heads after the fact like hey I am leaking coolant in exhaust port #1 and see what they say to do .
Then not only could I post on the numbers for each head I would also be able to post both initial service times and service after the fact as this is what you are paying for when you step up to a top name shop.
Personally I think it is funny when someone like Ed comes on and slams TEA time after time. threads get closed before TEA can speakup for themselves so the slam goes uncontended.
I can also understand Ed's anger as he has has been watching the back of TEA renegade cars for more than a couple of years.
11-20-2003, 02:31 PM
#19
Cstraub, some good questions and points.
There are engine software packages that would allow better modeling from the data collect to help select the correct heads for a given application.
All I can say is based on the data we collected on my 99 T/A's heads and cam package...the cars peak rwhp was predicted between 415 and 420rwhp. Car's best dyno was 418rwhp. I'm not saying this would be the case everytime.
While one head might really shine say from .500 to .650 and pull peak numbers what killed everything else and other head might excel in the midlift .300 to .500 range. Since more duration occures at in the mid-range, these numbers are usually the most important.
If this gets really serious and the board and members support the shoot out my LS1 engine for my 91 RS is sitting on an engine stand. It's going to have to be tore down and re-ringed. It might be possible to do a few test pulls to see what it does.
There are engine software packages that would allow better modeling from the data collect to help select the correct heads for a given application.
All I can say is based on the data we collected on my 99 T/A's heads and cam package...the cars peak rwhp was predicted between 415 and 420rwhp. Car's best dyno was 418rwhp. I'm not saying this would be the case everytime.
While one head might really shine say from .500 to .650 and pull peak numbers what killed everything else and other head might excel in the midlift .300 to .500 range. Since more duration occures at in the mid-range, these numbers are usually the most important.
If this gets really serious and the board and members support the shoot out my LS1 engine for my 91 RS is sitting on an engine stand. It's going to have to be tore down and re-ringed. It might be possible to do a few test pulls to see what it does.
11-20-2003, 02:41 PM
#20
I can shift faster than you.
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I 100% agree with Cstraub. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't this whole "flow bench shootout" project designed to help the members decide which cylinder head makes the best power? Just because one head flows more air on a flowbench than the other doesn't mean it will make more power when bolted onto a motor. As 93Pony mentioned, you have take into account runner volume, port velocity, port shape, cross-sectional area, chamber shape,etc.
The ideal test would consist of putting each set of heads on an engine dyno (head swaps 30 minutes) and swapping only the heads. You would have to finalize what cam, headers, intake manifold, etc. that will be used on the dyno. I would use what most people have on their cars (TR224/G5X2/TSP231,etc ; FLPs, LS6 intake,etc) and let each head porter know this up FRONT so they tailor the head around the entire setup. Keeping the combustion chamber volumes constant would be something to enforce as well (more compression = free hp until you run into detonation issues). I would say make around 5 pulls. Allow for changes with LS1edit as chamber shape can effect the total timing required for optimum power. Possibly have 4 or 5 different LS1edit files saved (have a stock file and then the rest with varying timing, slight A/F adjustments,etc) and try a new file on each run with each set of heads to see what the head wants for best power.
Jason
The ideal test would consist of putting each set of heads on an engine dyno (head swaps 30 minutes) and swapping only the heads. You would have to finalize what cam, headers, intake manifold, etc. that will be used on the dyno. I would use what most people have on their cars (TR224/G5X2/TSP231,etc ; FLPs, LS6 intake,etc) and let each head porter know this up FRONT so they tailor the head around the entire setup. Keeping the combustion chamber volumes constant would be something to enforce as well (more compression = free hp until you run into detonation issues). I would say make around 5 pulls. Allow for changes with LS1edit as chamber shape can effect the total timing required for optimum power. Possibly have 4 or 5 different LS1edit files saved (have a stock file and then the rest with varying timing, slight A/F adjustments,etc) and try a new file on each run with each set of heads to see what the head wants for best power.
Jason