New Trickflow's and torque is weak.
08-06-2009, 05:33 PM
#41
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No offense but yah right...... But seriously, I could care less if anyone dosent like the noise or smell coming from my 3 inch true duals with spiral flows and no cats thank you. I think it smells good and I like the sound. Im the kind of guy that wants every ounce of power out of my motor. I know im not the only one........
08-07-2009, 10:56 PM
#44
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cubes are torque...not much can be done about that...hp a different story. the longer the cam, the later the intake valve closes...and the later the cylinder starts making compression down low. People theorize about runner volumes. The smarter ones talk about cross-section. Most of us will never dyno equal flowing heads with different cross-sections. Many of us have been victim of big cams and big numbers at the expense of around town fun.
04-14-2010, 04:16 PM
#45
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Guys I need some opinions on where or what to do from here. Story is this,
03 Z06 with
236/240 .601 .608 112 lsa
Ported Fast 92 from Vengeance
1 3/4 American Racing headers with high flow cats
Borla Stingers
Blackwing
Trickflow 215's milled to 59cc
Yella Terras
Nick Williams 92 mm TB
Cam only the car made 427/393
After the heads, ported fast, and TB the car made 478/409
Why no torque? I would have expected much more torque than this. Is the cam the issue? My goal was about about 475/435 so I am pretty disappointed in the low torque numbers. Any suggestions? The shop is scratching their heads a bit on this one so in the meantime I wanted to get some other opinions.
03 Z06 with
236/240 .601 .608 112 lsa
Ported Fast 92 from Vengeance
1 3/4 American Racing headers with high flow cats
Borla Stingers
Blackwing
Trickflow 215's milled to 59cc
Yella Terras
Nick Williams 92 mm TB
Cam only the car made 427/393
After the heads, ported fast, and TB the car made 478/409
Why no torque? I would have expected much more torque than this. Is the cam the issue? My goal was about about 475/435 so I am pretty disappointed in the low torque numbers. Any suggestions? The shop is scratching their heads a bit on this one so in the meantime I wanted to get some other opinions.
The thread says TFS 215s, but in your sig it says you have AFR 215s?
04-14-2010, 04:40 PM
#46
cubes are torque...not much can be done about that...hp a different story. the longer the cam, the later the intake valve closes...and the later the cylinder starts making compression down low. People theorize about runner volumes. The smarter ones talk about cross-section. Most of us will never dyno equal flowing heads with different cross-sections. Many of us have been victim of big cams and big numbers at the expense of around town fun.
Why are you aiming for a torque number? Just to say you have it?
04-14-2010, 04:52 PM
#47
04-14-2010, 05:37 PM
#50
TQ is what wins races and hp wins your pocket book. I would try to get rid of those cats, have a nice free flowing exhaust. If that doesn't do much of a difference you need a different cam. The cam you are running right now is a little conservative for a Z. You can always talk to pat g ed curtis or predator z to spec you out a cam for what you are looking for. Something in the lines of an MS4 or the AZPS03 from Ed Curtis will get you where you are looking to get. But like stated before also go to the track get some numbers and see where you stand.
good luck
good luck
04-14-2010, 09:14 PM
#53
I am going to get my FAST 90 ported and do a bigger maf and lid and should put me 450 +/- i figure with a few more ft lbs torque on my "as cast" 220's. I am surprised I am so close to you with the torque #'s especially with you making 50 more rwhp. I am still on my old El Toro derivitive cam. It peaked at 6200 but was still carrying 430+ at 6500..... For some reason I can't post my graph up or I would. Did you post yours up in the in the Dyno section??
Great times you are puttin up BTW
EDIT: Found your Dyno thread. VERY IMPRESSIVE
Last edited by SOMbitch; 04-14-2010 at 09:33 PM.
04-15-2010, 04:51 PM
#54
What cam did you end up running chrs?
I am going to get my FAST 90 ported and do a bigger maf and lid and should put me 450 +/- i figure with a few more ft lbs torque on my "as cast" 220's. I am surprised I am so close to you with the torque #'s especially with you making 50 more rwhp. I am still on my old El Toro derivitive cam. It peaked at 6200 but was still carrying 430+ at 6500..... For some reason I can't post my graph up or I would. Did you post yours up in the in the Dyno section??
Great times you are puttin up BTW
EDIT: Found your Dyno thread. VERY IMPRESSIVE
I am going to get my FAST 90 ported and do a bigger maf and lid and should put me 450 +/- i figure with a few more ft lbs torque on my "as cast" 220's. I am surprised I am so close to you with the torque #'s especially with you making 50 more rwhp. I am still on my old El Toro derivitive cam. It peaked at 6200 but was still carrying 430+ at 6500..... For some reason I can't post my graph up or I would. Did you post yours up in the in the Dyno section??
Great times you are puttin up BTW
EDIT: Found your Dyno thread. VERY IMPRESSIVE
04-15-2010, 08:26 PM
#55
04-15-2010, 11:22 PM
#57
Maybe you can win that money back on your next bet....
Acceleration is about HP....not torque
Think turbo diesel hot rod truck with an aftermarket tuner and maybe an aftermarket turbo as well.....might make 1000 RWTQ and 500 RWHP with a real hot tune in it but when you plug in the track results and the weight of the truck you will see clear as day it went down the track based on exactly 500 RWHP.....the fact it made twice that in torque didn't mean squat.
Go to the drags when these trucks run and you will see exactly that scenario play out. Its no different than your example (except the truck is 1500 lbs heavier than your typical Vette or F-Body)....in fact I amplified it by doubling the torque to make my point even easier to see.
-Tony
Acceleration is about HP....not torque
Think turbo diesel hot rod truck with an aftermarket tuner and maybe an aftermarket turbo as well.....might make 1000 RWTQ and 500 RWHP with a real hot tune in it but when you plug in the track results and the weight of the truck you will see clear as day it went down the track based on exactly 500 RWHP.....the fact it made twice that in torque didn't mean squat.
Go to the drags when these trucks run and you will see exactly that scenario play out. Its no different than your example (except the truck is 1500 lbs heavier than your typical Vette or F-Body)....in fact I amplified it by doubling the torque to make my point even easier to see.
-Tony
04-16-2010, 01:13 AM
#58
Perfect example are foreign cars. Have beautiful HP numbers and curves yet their TQ numbers are in the toilet. Lets take 2 for example Ferrari and Lamborghini. That's why you have stock C6 ZO6s eating them for lunch and shitting them for dinner. HP numbers equal the ZO6 has stronger TQ numbers and wins every time. Why because the ZO6 has the TQ to get to speed quicker and the HP to keep it there. The foreign cars have the ability to maintain high speeds for a long period of time but they do not have the TQ to get them there quickly.
Please argue that point.
Sorry OP.
04-16-2010, 01:59 AM
#59
Well HP is a by product of TQ. In a 1/4 mile run is the person who can get to speed quicker (tq) and keep it there (hp). Hp helps you at top end. As a car gets to speed rolling friction diminishes and there fore no use for TQ which is where HP takes over because you have to break air friction.
Perfect example are foreign cars. Have beautiful HP numbers and curves yet their TQ numbers are in the toilet. Lets take 2 for example Ferrari and Lamborghini. That's why you have stock C6 ZO6s eating them for lunch and shitting them for dinner. HP numbers equal the ZO6 has stronger TQ numbers and wins every time. Why because the ZO6 has the TQ to get to speed quicker and the HP to keep it there. The foreign cars have the ability to maintain high speeds for a long period of time but they do not have the TQ to get them there quickly.
Please argue that point.
Sorry OP.
Perfect example are foreign cars. Have beautiful HP numbers and curves yet their TQ numbers are in the toilet. Lets take 2 for example Ferrari and Lamborghini. That's why you have stock C6 ZO6s eating them for lunch and shitting them for dinner. HP numbers equal the ZO6 has stronger TQ numbers and wins every time. Why because the ZO6 has the TQ to get to speed quicker and the HP to keep it there. The foreign cars have the ability to maintain high speeds for a long period of time but they do not have the TQ to get them there quickly.
Please argue that point.
Sorry OP.
Are you discussing road racing perhaps because I'm not....we are discussing drag racing (acceleration contests) where your high horsepower "foreign car" can keep his engine in its peak power zone by shifting every gear at 8500 and leave the line feathering the clutch at 6500.
Drag racing is horsepower to weight ratio. Thats it....the highest one wins assuming equal traction and comparable driver skills. Speed calculators are ALL based on HP versus weight.....good luck finding one that utilizes torque versus weight if its trying to calculate 1/4 mile ET and trap speeds.
Now admittedly, I love an engine that produces big torque AND big horsepower more than the next guy....its pretty much my life's work to make that happen, and on the street low RPM torque is great....much more fun to drive, but it doesn't guarantee a win in an acceleration contests....only horsepower does.
Horsepower and weight is all that matter....if the foreign car lost its because he couldn't drive worth a **** or he simply had the weaker number when you do the math (weight divided by HP.....7 lbs per HP loses to a car that has 6.8 pounds per HP).
I'm not going to argue this point any more with you but I suggest you carefully read what I wrote and do some additional homework. If you have an open mind you will have further educated yourself in this hobby.
-Tony
PS....Think modern sportbike.....a ZX14 makes **** for torque yet musters 160 RWHP and runs close to 150 MPH trap speeds with a good driver (ET ing what that trap speed would be capable of with a track prepped bike and a very skilled rider). It goes that fast because when you figure what a 750 lb vehicle (weight with rider) and 200 or so HP at the crank is capable of you have a power to weight ratio of about 3.5 lbs per pony. You would need about 1000 HP in a 3500 lb car to simulate the same....and thats exactly what you would run if that 3500 lb car had 1000 HP. Note torque is nowhere to be found in any of these figures and calculations.
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 04-16-2010 at 02:06 AM.
04-16-2010, 07:12 AM
#60
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Torque the force that acts to produce rotation as in an automotive vehicle. As in my earlier example using a nitrous car vs a supercharger car with comparable HP/TQ dyno numbers. The advantage will go to the nitrous car...say at a 30 mph roll race...why because the nitrous car will have (using my cars numbers) 580 ft lbs of torque at 3400 rpm's with only 360 HP at said rpm. On the other hand the centrifugal supercharged car will be lucky to have 400 ft lbs of torque at 3400 rpm with approximately the same HP as the nitrous car at said rpm. So you tell me which car is going to pull harder at the get go? It's the nitrous car no doubt and the supercharged car will no way in hell catch up form 30 mph to 150 mph.