What heads for drivability?
08-17-2009, 04:53 AM
#43
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just as another fyi....no one has been able to duplicate the power results that tony achieved even when they purchased his massasaged heads (he charges 1100 for this service on top of the cost of the afr heads) and a ported fast intake directly from tony. that being said MANY people have crossed over 5xx rwhp on a 346 using tfs 215 heads...look at the dozens on this board that bought the afr, fast..his spec'ed cam blah, blah....and they only got mid 45x rwhp...but as they say...its your money spend it how ever you want.
08-17-2009, 11:44 AM
#44
just as another fyi....no one has been able to duplicate the power results that tony achieved even when they purchased his massasaged heads (he charges 1100 for this service on top of the cost of the afr heads) and a ported fast intake directly from tony. that being said MANY people have crossed over 5xx rwhp on a 346 using tfs 215 heads...look at the dozens on this board that bought the afr, fast..his spec'ed cam blah, blah....and they only got mid 45x rwhp...but as they say...its your money spend it how ever you want.
Many people try and duplicate results that others have posted and failed.
The 500 rwhp mark is not an easy goal with a 346. There is no difference in the failure rate to achieve that goal between those two heads. You don't see people posting up and saying hey I just dropped $3200 on a TFS h/c setup and failed to hit my goal because it isn't something you post-up about on here.
You'll get thousand of experts all telling you you should have done it their way and that you wasted your money. Besides the fact that 500 rwhp with a 346 is not the greatest of ideas in the first place. But to each his own. Driving habits are all different. First thing I would do before dumping 3k on h/c package to try and hit 500 rwhp would be to save money and add cubic inches and make the power more street-able.
08-17-2009, 12:14 PM
#45
Umm I thought it was clear that I have a built 383 with ported heads and a cam already and im looking to upgrade. 500whp is a awesome number I would not mind having I just don't want to loose any bottom end. If that is an easy goal than I will make it my goal, I just don't want to miss.
08-17-2009, 12:33 PM
#46
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if you go with the tfs 215 you wont loose ANY bottom end...people that say this dont own these heads and dont have any first hand experience....most that gripe about loosing bottom end have a stage 2 or stage 3 ls6 type of head and the intakes have been hogged out beyond 230-240cc's and this causes huge flow numbers up top but kills bottom end..i am not saying afr heads are bad...i am saying to get them to match tfs heads from tea you have to spend another 1100+ and have tony hand clean them up...so do the math 2300 for afr+ 1100 or 2300 for tfs and spend another 400 for yella terra rockers...
08-17-2009, 12:41 PM
#47
AFR 205's are not $2300 but yes to have Tony Mamo enhance them cost money. I'm not Tony so I don't know what his rates are these days for his services but it does fluctuate.
205's are $2130 on my website and TFS aren't listed but are $2450. Cost of rockers is $450.
You also need to take into account the cam.
When I spoke to Tony about this he made no mention of having to enhance the 205's so I'm not sure where that is coming from? He picks up power with his additional work but this OP is not looking to max top end so not sure why that even comes into play?
TFS 215, PRC 215, AFR 205, AFR 225.. all these heads will work just fine but you need to account for the cam as well and the OP stated concern about bottom end.
Lets get back to his statement Thats not looking for max top end or max dollar.. just more than what he has and not to sacrifice any bottom end.
Best bang for the buck right there is the AFR 205 with his current cam. $2130 plus $100 for 8019 springs to his door and we've done all that he wanted for $670 less than a set of TFS 215's. Or we can try a set of PRC 215's. I just haven't seen them in action yet side by side with some AFR 205's so I cant say for sure but I think the price for them is slightly less than the AFR's?
I'm just going by what the OP stated his goals were.
SO to finish that.. a set of PRC stage 2.5 5.3 litre heads is also an option. For about $1000 less he can go that route as well and thats where the debate really lies here. Will he lose bottom end with a ported OEM head vs a AFR 205 or TFS or PRC or AFR 215
205's are $2130 on my website and TFS aren't listed but are $2450. Cost of rockers is $450.
You also need to take into account the cam.
When I spoke to Tony about this he made no mention of having to enhance the 205's so I'm not sure where that is coming from? He picks up power with his additional work but this OP is not looking to max top end so not sure why that even comes into play?
TFS 215, PRC 215, AFR 205, AFR 225.. all these heads will work just fine but you need to account for the cam as well and the OP stated concern about bottom end.
Lets get back to his statement
I want a good set of heads that will make good power with out loosing low end. What would the difference be in low end between say a set of 2.5 ls6 or 5.3 heads be to a set of PRC, AFR, or TFR 215 heads?
Best bang for the buck right there is the AFR 205 with his current cam. $2130 plus $100 for 8019 springs to his door and we've done all that he wanted for $670 less than a set of TFS 215's. Or we can try a set of PRC 215's. I just haven't seen them in action yet side by side with some AFR 205's so I cant say for sure but I think the price for them is slightly less than the AFR's?
I'm just going by what the OP stated his goals were.
SO to finish that.. a set of PRC stage 2.5 5.3 litre heads is also an option. For about $1000 less he can go that route as well and thats where the debate really lies here. Will he lose bottom end with a ported OEM head vs a AFR 205 or TFS or PRC or AFR 215
Last edited by 99blancoSS; 08-17-2009 at 12:56 PM.
08-17-2009, 01:34 PM
#48
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i spoke with tony first hand...his cost is 1100 over the price of the head for what he says is an additional 10 cfm of flow or another 7-8 rwhp at the end of the day...i went round and round with everyone from cartek who charges 2300 for their stage 4 head + you have to give them a $600 core charge on top or give them your set of ls6 heads on your car...i spoke with tony several times and as i said...bottom line no heads produce the torque of a tfs215 head....i used the 346 example since more people on this board have a 346 and always try to achieve the 500 rwhp goal....i understand that the op has a 383....as do i, i didnt want to loose low end...guess what i gained over 60 ft/lbs of torque at 2500 rpms vs the lpe ls6 cnc'ed heads...and over 100 ft/lbs at 6200 rpms...and hp gains topped 125 from the peak of the lpe ls6 heads vs the tfs 215 heads...i wish the op lived on the east coast as i would let him drive my car and see first hand if my car is a dog, a pig down low and let him draw his own conclusions.
08-17-2009, 02:08 PM
#50
i spoke with tony first hand...his cost is 1100 over the price of the head for what he says is an additional 10 cfm of flow or another 7-8 rwhp at the end of the day...i went round and round with everyone from cartek who charges 2300 for their stage 4 head + you have to give them a $600 core charge on top or give them your set of ls6 heads on your car...i spoke with tony several times and as i said...bottom line no heads produce the torque of a tfs215 head....i used the 346 example since more people on this board have a 346 and always try to achieve the 500 rwhp goal....i understand that the op has a 383....as do i, i didnt want to loose low end...guess what i gained over 60 ft/lbs of torque at 2500 rpms vs the lpe ls6 cnc'ed heads...and over 100 ft/lbs at 6200 rpms...and hp gains topped 125 from the peak of the lpe ls6 heads vs the tfs 215 heads...i wish the op lived on the east coast as i would let him drive my car and see first hand if my car is a dog, a pig down low and let him draw his own conclusions.
08-17-2009, 02:18 PM
#51
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my results were i make more rwhp and tq then any other 383 that uses a hydraulic roller cam (ie not a solid roller like tony did in his build) i didnt have the time or money (its not my job to test afr vs tfs back to back and see what an out of the box afr head (they come cnc'ed btw) would do as compared to an out of the box set of tfs heads from tea. its not too hard to see the results...look at 10 people that have tfs 215 and 10 that have a set of afr 205s and see with a similar combo which makes more power and the scale is heavily tilted in favor of the tfs...you always hear the same bs from afr owners...i didnt want to loose low end torque...bunch of hogwash....all you did was limit your et/ and mph by going with that head vs a tfs...
Last edited by 9secondsflat; 08-17-2009 at 03:00 PM.
08-17-2009, 02:40 PM
#52
I dont think anyone has said that the AFR makes more up top than the TFS in this thread?, but we weren't talking about top end performance here...... or so I thought anyway
I also figured budget was in play as he was talking about an oem in the begining so I weigh a few things not just one thing.
In the 2700-3000 range yes the TFS 215 is a good choice but your not going to get and bolt them on with your stock rockers for $2250 like the AFR 205 .. which if your not looking for max top end is a good way to go.
I agree I might not go with the touched up version over the TFS 215 but I also wasnt trying to spend 3k either.
But then you also have to look at the PRC 215 for maximum value. Uses their new spring and uses your stock rockers
I also figured budget was in play as he was talking about an oem in the begining so I weigh a few things not just one thing.
In the 2700-3000 range yes the TFS 215 is a good choice but your not going to get and bolt them on with your stock rockers for $2250 like the AFR 205 .. which if your not looking for max top end is a good way to go. I agree I might not go with the touched up version over the TFS 215 but I also wasnt trying to spend 3k either.
But then you also have to look at the PRC 215 for maximum value. Uses their new spring and uses your stock rockers
08-17-2009, 08:45 PM
#54
Actually the 383 I built for Rick Duncan still has by far the highest torque (500 RWTQ) and made over 530 RWHP.....it had a small cam as well....234/238
That engine was built by me personally (its my freshened 383 former solid roller engine) and we swapped it to a hyd. set-up for complete daily driver friendly driving. The owner works in a hospital and drive ths car to work every day. Its a very impressive broad scope piece....doesnt have quite the pull of the solid roller config but its far easier to live with and its very close in power.
Dont have time now but will link the results later (they are on this board somewhere).
Regarding my handwork its for the guys looking for every last drop and i usually quote conservatively when discussing its benefits. I have the results of a before and after with that as well.....closer to 15 HP if I recall....also already posted if someone wants to dig.
The AFR 205's will also provide the most PART THROTTLE.....something the dyno will not measure but can be felt every day in top gear roll on situations/light throttle passing etc.
I will revisit this thread later....have some place to be right now
-Tony
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EDIT: Here is the info I referred to earlier
Dyno results from Rick Duncan's 91 octane 383 combination (very optimized build!)
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-job-done.html
Dyno results from a ported set of 205's I did for a customer
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...5-comparo.html
That engine was built by me personally (its my freshened 383 former solid roller engine) and we swapped it to a hyd. set-up for complete daily driver friendly driving. The owner works in a hospital and drive ths car to work every day. Its a very impressive broad scope piece....doesnt have quite the pull of the solid roller config but its far easier to live with and its very close in power.
Dont have time now but will link the results later (they are on this board somewhere).
Regarding my handwork its for the guys looking for every last drop and i usually quote conservatively when discussing its benefits. I have the results of a before and after with that as well.....closer to 15 HP if I recall....also already posted if someone wants to dig.
The AFR 205's will also provide the most PART THROTTLE.....something the dyno will not measure but can be felt every day in top gear roll on situations/light throttle passing etc.
I will revisit this thread later....have some place to be right now
-Tony
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Here is the info I referred to earlier
Dyno results from Rick Duncan's 91 octane 383 combination (very optimized build!)
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-job-done.html
Dyno results from a ported set of 205's I did for a customer
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...5-comparo.html
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 08-17-2009 at 09:45 PM.
08-20-2009, 11:41 AM
#56
The 205 would have the most part throttle grunt (ported 205 even more) but my hunch is the 215 would out power it a bit at higher RPM's on the dyno.
Either is a great choice honestly....cant really go wrong with either.
-Tony
08-29-2009, 09:08 PM
#57
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...so if I was more inclined to do 30 rolls...would I be better off with the AFR 205 or the TFS 215? I will be adding a fast92/92 at the same time as the heads this winter. Thanks. (i have the g5x3 and made 404rwhp with stock heads and a ls6).
