Major engine problems with JPR 388
12-05-2003, 09:57 PM
#82
Originally Posted by ezss
If it werent for bad luck, Id have no luck at all!All I can say is don't give up, and lay it down on those who owe you what you deserve. I was on the verge of saying f-ck it, but didn't and now i'm making killer HONEST #'s with my heads/cam package. Good luck
Josh
12-05-2003, 10:08 PM
#83
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If your going to pay full price go elsewhere.Don't allow these guys to make another nickel off of their screw-up.The engine building/tuning business has some very shady characters that screw people over without recourse.I wish I had an answer for you but hopefully some of the fellow LS1Techers will be educated about the way those guys do business.I was going to suggest some illegal things you could do but that would'nt be a responsible thing to do.Good luck
12-05-2003, 10:39 PM
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I just got done reading this thread and from ezss's point of view I can say I am honestly not suprised at the trouble that you are having Eric.
I will try to be as objective as I can when I say this but here is my take on JPR.
He generally means well and is a good head porter but he is in over his head
and because of this he cannot deal with people very well. (At least he did
not deal with me in a way that I would call professional.)
Here is a short list of contradictions that I have had when dealing with Joe. Again I believe he honestly forgot all of this.
a. I was told that I would be informed of the cam specs once I got up to New
Jersey. I still do not know what my cam specs are for sure because I was
not told what they are. ( Not sure if I would trust him anyways if he told me)
b. I was told he would put me up over the weekend and would also receive a
car to drive while I was there. The hotel was paid for (although I did have
to ask about it) and the extra car I never saw.He also was rude IMO to both
Vince and I and he didnt even have the courtesy to tell us where a hotel
was even though he was expecting us to come up from Florida but was
nowhere to be found when we got there. ( He was out dynoing Erics car)
I quote this statement. Me and Vince ask Joe where is a hotel that
we can go stay at since you are not going to be here. The reply
" You guys do what you have to do cause I have to do what I am
doing" which was dynoing Erics car. LOL we came from Florida for this
awesome new package that only Joe could install because of the secret
cam specs and this is the attitude we get. I told Vince then that my
conscience was telling me to go back to Florida and forget the entire thing.
especially when I was told because of Columbus day that I would not be
getting a dyno tune even though this trip had been planned for months in
advance.
c. Upon recently investigating my own issues with my car since the head and
cam package installed by Joe I found some interesting things. They pulled
out my FTRA which I ok'd that but they never put back in my air dam bolts
or my radiator support bolt. That damn thing was flapping in the wind lol,
people were probably laughing at me everytime I hauled ***.
d. My throttle body flowed under 1000 cfm which is what Joe said his package
required in order to get the maximum #'s. I paid him for a new throttlebody
that did flow 1000 cfm over 2 months ago when I left New Jersey, he said I
would have the tb in a couple of weeks. Well its 2 months later and I still
do not have it. This in itself does not matter except for that each time I call
JPR he says he just finished it up
e. There was various other things that he contradicted himself on but I
have probably already said to much to keep from getting banned.
Some of the things that are happening to you I have also experienced on my JPR head/cam car. Granted I did not have the entire motor built by JPR but there are some similarities. The oil all over your engine bay? Did your dipstick pop out because of blow by? If it did that also happened to me. I have not driven the car since this has happened except for 1 test drive to make sure it wasnt a fluke and it wasn't.
I was also on the dyno about a week before my problems started happening and on the first run I was 20 hp and 20 tq down, during the run I had alot of smoke blow out the tail pipes. My smoke was black but my a/f during the run was right on at 13.1 to 12.9 by the end of the run. My 2nd and 3rd runs were normal with no smoke.
I am gonna start some testing on my car because of this . But one thing I am wondering is if your original cam was a JPR cam ? I wonder if your JPR cam is using the same lobes as mine. I also wonder if they are to fast of a ramp rate for
an ls1 lifter. Maybe others can chime in on this but what are all the reasons for a failed lifter? Could a failed lifter create a closed valve causing excessive compression in the combustion chamber resulting in blow by?
Anyways Eric I feel for you but like Vince said dont go back to Joe expecting different results. People as a majority don't change and you could be having problems for months if you continue down the same road. Go to another vendor and have them blueprint/spec your entire new motor or just get a stock ls1 put it in your car and try to forget the entire thing.
FWIW I really do not like saying all the things I said about Joe but from my dealings with him I would tend to believe Eric more than Joe. I wish us both the best of luck in getting our new setups up and running and sorry about your luck.
I will try to be as objective as I can when I say this but here is my take on JPR.
He generally means well and is a good head porter but he is in over his head
and because of this he cannot deal with people very well. (At least he did
not deal with me in a way that I would call professional.)
Here is a short list of contradictions that I have had when dealing with Joe. Again I believe he honestly forgot all of this.
a. I was told that I would be informed of the cam specs once I got up to New
Jersey. I still do not know what my cam specs are for sure because I was
not told what they are. ( Not sure if I would trust him anyways if he told me)
b. I was told he would put me up over the weekend and would also receive a
car to drive while I was there. The hotel was paid for (although I did have
to ask about it) and the extra car I never saw.He also was rude IMO to both
Vince and I and he didnt even have the courtesy to tell us where a hotel
was even though he was expecting us to come up from Florida but was
nowhere to be found when we got there. ( He was out dynoing Erics car)
I quote this statement. Me and Vince ask Joe where is a hotel that
we can go stay at since you are not going to be here. The reply
" You guys do what you have to do cause I have to do what I am
doing" which was dynoing Erics car. LOL we came from Florida for this
awesome new package that only Joe could install because of the secret
cam specs and this is the attitude we get. I told Vince then that my
conscience was telling me to go back to Florida and forget the entire thing.
especially when I was told because of Columbus day that I would not be
getting a dyno tune even though this trip had been planned for months in
advance.
c. Upon recently investigating my own issues with my car since the head and
cam package installed by Joe I found some interesting things. They pulled
out my FTRA which I ok'd that but they never put back in my air dam bolts
or my radiator support bolt. That damn thing was flapping in the wind lol,
people were probably laughing at me everytime I hauled ***.
d. My throttle body flowed under 1000 cfm which is what Joe said his package
required in order to get the maximum #'s. I paid him for a new throttlebody
that did flow 1000 cfm over 2 months ago when I left New Jersey, he said I
would have the tb in a couple of weeks. Well its 2 months later and I still
do not have it. This in itself does not matter except for that each time I call
JPR he says he just finished it up
e. There was various other things that he contradicted himself on but I
have probably already said to much to keep from getting banned.
Some of the things that are happening to you I have also experienced on my JPR head/cam car. Granted I did not have the entire motor built by JPR but there are some similarities. The oil all over your engine bay? Did your dipstick pop out because of blow by? If it did that also happened to me. I have not driven the car since this has happened except for 1 test drive to make sure it wasnt a fluke and it wasn't.
I was also on the dyno about a week before my problems started happening and on the first run I was 20 hp and 20 tq down, during the run I had alot of smoke blow out the tail pipes. My smoke was black but my a/f during the run was right on at 13.1 to 12.9 by the end of the run. My 2nd and 3rd runs were normal with no smoke.
I am gonna start some testing on my car because of this . But one thing I am wondering is if your original cam was a JPR cam ? I wonder if your JPR cam is using the same lobes as mine. I also wonder if they are to fast of a ramp rate for
an ls1 lifter. Maybe others can chime in on this but what are all the reasons for a failed lifter? Could a failed lifter create a closed valve causing excessive compression in the combustion chamber resulting in blow by?
Anyways Eric I feel for you but like Vince said dont go back to Joe expecting different results. People as a majority don't change and you could be having problems for months if you continue down the same road. Go to another vendor and have them blueprint/spec your entire new motor or just get a stock ls1 put it in your car and try to forget the entire thing.
FWIW I really do not like saying all the things I said about Joe but from my dealings with him I would tend to believe Eric more than Joe. I wish us both the best of luck in getting our new setups up and running and sorry about your luck.
Last edited by Mike K.; 12-05-2003 at 10:47 PM.
12-05-2003, 10:52 PM
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1. I am not out of buissness.
2. I was offered an oppertunity by JD's Performance to do R&D on the 4.6 liter cobra FI engines and took it, it's not dictated by others what path I choose for my career move and we have merged both shops under one roof along with PCM's for less.
3. I wouldn't know where to check but if someone was to look into state of NJ's records, they will see that JPR is not a disolved Corperation.
4. after the leak down test was performed in front of the customer last week and passed, we dug a bit deeper into the engine, pulling the heads to find the cyls fuel washed and about 10 lifters either collapsed or ruined in our opinion and the machine shops opinion, and yes, I do know how to set up Yella Terra rockers, it's easy.
5. after it passed the leak down test, I was a bit annoid because eric was dead set on that the compression rings were shot, they wern't, it's obviously an oil control ring/cyl condition problem.
6. I have stood behind and warrentied 3 motors in the past with NO questions asked when I found out it was a machine shop problem or too tight of a gap on the piston rings, I do stand behind my work 100%. What made me discusted is the fact that when the 242 cam that I didn't authorize was installed and DIDN'T make **** for power over the 232 cam is where I feel that this whole project was being shoved up my *** even without having my heads on his 388 short block that I built. I felt so bad for him at the dyno session I offered the installation of the cam for free to him even without him even using my heads because he paid 470? dollars for the part, he will back that up.
7. When we recieved the rest of the news from the machine shop on the rest of the damage report of lifters being exploded, rod journal ends being stretched from over reving, definition: missing gears and free wheeling the motor without a load on it due to a clutch hydro problem. I felt inclined to stand by my original phone conversation to him after he was told that changing parts from the original intent of the build will have an impact on his warrentee.
7. The video the was posted is recent, not when it was first built.
8. Not to sound one sided about this topic, but it would be safe to say, if the motor had such a terrible oil consumption problem from the original build than why would the injectors be changed 2 times, why would he/we bother to install a larger cam in the motor, why would he authorize another set of heads to be installed on the car while all the time it had such a "horrible" oil consumption issue? just dosen't make sence, don't you think the car should have been returned to us in that "as built" state to address the problem before doing any other mods to it? All the hardware parts mentioned above only tax or exaspirate a "existing" problem wouldn't you think?
9. Tom drove EZ's car in that video and missed 2nd gear off the line just like Eric has in the past, he layed down a 1.5x 60' mark spinning so it's not low on power, Eric even mentioned it online that he is an excellent candidate for an automatic car.
10. To finish Eric's original 388/232 cam job, I stayed home from my Walt Disney World vacation with my wife and kids so don't ever say I'm not commited to my work please. Eric can back this up too.
11. If there is a solution to be reached, I am open for suggestions, but it is against our company policies to stand behind a build that a customer has modded from it's original form 3 strikes there.
I am not an unreasonable man, just the blame game and close mindedness has to stop.
Joe Prince/JPR JD's Performance
(215) 938-9270
2. I was offered an oppertunity by JD's Performance to do R&D on the 4.6 liter cobra FI engines and took it, it's not dictated by others what path I choose for my career move and we have merged both shops under one roof along with PCM's for less.
3. I wouldn't know where to check but if someone was to look into state of NJ's records, they will see that JPR is not a disolved Corperation.
4. after the leak down test was performed in front of the customer last week and passed, we dug a bit deeper into the engine, pulling the heads to find the cyls fuel washed and about 10 lifters either collapsed or ruined in our opinion and the machine shops opinion, and yes, I do know how to set up Yella Terra rockers, it's easy.
5. after it passed the leak down test, I was a bit annoid because eric was dead set on that the compression rings were shot, they wern't, it's obviously an oil control ring/cyl condition problem.
6. I have stood behind and warrentied 3 motors in the past with NO questions asked when I found out it was a machine shop problem or too tight of a gap on the piston rings, I do stand behind my work 100%. What made me discusted is the fact that when the 242 cam that I didn't authorize was installed and DIDN'T make **** for power over the 232 cam is where I feel that this whole project was being shoved up my *** even without having my heads on his 388 short block that I built. I felt so bad for him at the dyno session I offered the installation of the cam for free to him even without him even using my heads because he paid 470? dollars for the part, he will back that up.
7. When we recieved the rest of the news from the machine shop on the rest of the damage report of lifters being exploded, rod journal ends being stretched from over reving, definition: missing gears and free wheeling the motor without a load on it due to a clutch hydro problem. I felt inclined to stand by my original phone conversation to him after he was told that changing parts from the original intent of the build will have an impact on his warrentee.
7. The video the was posted is recent, not when it was first built.
8. Not to sound one sided about this topic, but it would be safe to say, if the motor had such a terrible oil consumption problem from the original build than why would the injectors be changed 2 times, why would he/we bother to install a larger cam in the motor, why would he authorize another set of heads to be installed on the car while all the time it had such a "horrible" oil consumption issue? just dosen't make sence, don't you think the car should have been returned to us in that "as built" state to address the problem before doing any other mods to it? All the hardware parts mentioned above only tax or exaspirate a "existing" problem wouldn't you think?
9. Tom drove EZ's car in that video and missed 2nd gear off the line just like Eric has in the past, he layed down a 1.5x 60' mark spinning so it's not low on power, Eric even mentioned it online that he is an excellent candidate for an automatic car.
10. To finish Eric's original 388/232 cam job, I stayed home from my Walt Disney World vacation with my wife and kids so don't ever say I'm not commited to my work please. Eric can back this up too.
11. If there is a solution to be reached, I am open for suggestions, but it is against our company policies to stand behind a build that a customer has modded from it's original form 3 strikes there.
I am not an unreasonable man, just the blame game and close mindedness has to stop.
Joe Prince/JPR JD's Performance
(215) 938-9270
12-05-2003, 10:53 PM
#87
e. There was various other things that he contradicted himself on but I
have probably already said to much to keep from getting banned.
have probably already said to much to keep from getting banned.
12-05-2003, 10:56 PM
#88
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Also I forgot to add.
I had not done the ls6 pcv conversion so the only metal shavings that could have been in the motor would have been from Joe's flycutting.
I had 2 thousand miles on my car since the head and cam install.
I had 0 track runs and 3 150mph blasts just for fun.
I had not done the ls6 pcv conversion so the only metal shavings that could have been in the motor would have been from Joe's flycutting.
I had 2 thousand miles on my car since the head and cam install.
I had 0 track runs and 3 150mph blasts just for fun.
12-05-2003, 11:01 PM
#89
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Originally Posted by JPR
10. To finish Eric's original 388/232 cam job, I stayed home from my Walt Disney World vacation with my wife and kids so don't ever say I'm not commited to my work please. Eric can back this up too.
LOL another contradiction, if his orginal job interferred with your trip to Florida I am glad you fit in the time for my trip with Vince which was planned months in advance seeming that you were finishing up Eric's car even as we got there.
12-05-2003, 11:06 PM
#90
Originally Posted by Country Boy
Im sure you dont have to worry about this. We arent like the "other" sites where any coment about a sponcer will be locked. As long as it isnt 3rd party info and its your personal experiences
Legit, intelligent and truthfull comments are ALWAYS welcome.
12-05-2003, 11:15 PM
#92
JPR lost me at hello.
No smoke on the dyno.... as if it would be seen.
Then a statement from JD that JPR was out of Biz, then Joe says hes not. Do they have their heads together on this?
Problems from day one...no brainer here.
Eric, i dont know you but I think most observers of this thread would feel you have been straight. And most will turn their back to Joe and his new "Boss". I would. Going back now would be like letting them kick you out of bed...then **** you on the floor.
the internet is your friend...and helps other make buying decisions.
PSJ is so stand up he risks a sponsers monthly check to step in and ask appropriate questions.
Good luck... Spend winter building a solid running motor yourself..more satisfaction and more affordable. Maybe some other sponser would at least sell you parts a fair pricing to help you... I wouldnt expect them to want to work for you though.. in case you do have that black cloud over your head.
I too, sometimes am not stong enough to hold back my comments, but they are intended to give you a sence of rightiousness. I do not know the whole story, and may be standing on the wrong side. JPR has a good rep, has been helpful when we've talked, and and if there is a better defense, should be mentioned. Erik... this is a no guarentee business, the nature of it alone puts us in a buyer beware situation. This is just a Judge Wopner decision.
No smoke on the dyno.... as if it would be seen.
Then a statement from JD that JPR was out of Biz, then Joe says hes not. Do they have their heads together on this?
Problems from day one...no brainer here.
Eric, i dont know you but I think most observers of this thread would feel you have been straight. And most will turn their back to Joe and his new "Boss". I would. Going back now would be like letting them kick you out of bed...then **** you on the floor.
the internet is your friend...and helps other make buying decisions.
PSJ is so stand up he risks a sponsers monthly check to step in and ask appropriate questions.
Good luck... Spend winter building a solid running motor yourself..more satisfaction and more affordable. Maybe some other sponser would at least sell you parts a fair pricing to help you... I wouldnt expect them to want to work for you though.. in case you do have that black cloud over your head.
I too, sometimes am not stong enough to hold back my comments, but they are intended to give you a sence of rightiousness. I do not know the whole story, and may be standing on the wrong side. JPR has a good rep, has been helpful when we've talked, and and if there is a better defense, should be mentioned. Erik... this is a no guarentee business, the nature of it alone puts us in a buyer beware situation. This is just a Judge Wopner decision.
Last edited by JamMasterJ; 12-05-2003 at 11:26 PM.
12-05-2003, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike K.
LOL another contradiction, if his orginal job interferred with your trip to Florida I am glad you fit in the time for my trip with Vince which was planned months in advance seeming that you were finishing up Eric's car even as we got there.
JP.
12-05-2003, 11:40 PM
#94
Well I still say if JD is not going to warranty his work then take it somewhere else. The prices I have seen so far are brand new shortblock prices with a WARRANTY attached. Who da hell is going to spend $5k plus for another build and the car can break down the very next day and have nothing but a broke setup to show for all your trouble?
12-05-2003, 11:41 PM
#95
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Originally Posted by JPR
No Mike, Erics original install of his 388 was performed over 1 year ago.
JP.
JP.
Sorry I figured I may have been getting ahead of myself, but what about everything else?
Here is another couple of things that are contradicting. I drove up and paid for
my head/cam install. Why then did I have to help you turn the head bolts once you got tired? I know I did agree to help you to be nice but is it professional to ask a client or even let a client do some of the job that he is paying you to do?
Also what about telling me at the last second that you had forgot that your wife had to go to some convention so that I could not come up because you had to
watch the kids, and then suddently after Vince calls you the trip is back on?
It took alot of effort ,, i.e planning etc to get up there and maybe I am wrong but I would hope that this was serious enough in your book to warrant at least some planning on your part.
Basically I felt like this, You did a great port job on my heads but did not do so well with the install and also did not take the time out to make me feel confident
in what you were doing.
12-05-2003, 11:45 PM
#96
Originally Posted by ezss
I talked to JD again, and he says JPR is out of business, that i have no recourse with JPR, that he now works for JD.
Originally Posted by JPR
1. I am not out of buissness.
2. I was offered an oppertunity by JD's Performance to do R&D on the 4.6 liter cobra FI engines and took it, it's not dictated by others what path I choose for my career move and we have merged both shops under one roof along with PCM's for less.
2. I was offered an oppertunity by JD's Performance to do R&D on the 4.6 liter cobra FI engines and took it, it's not dictated by others what path I choose for my career move and we have merged both shops under one roof along with PCM's for less.
Likewise, if the business are merged the liabilies from JRP would transfer to the new joint business. If the issue should be covered under the orginal JPR warranty - JD is bound to cover it too if he merged the companies. Might have to get legal with JD to make the point - if the companies are truely merged.
Joe Prince, he's been a stand up guy in all my dealing with him.
JD is making a very bad first impression so far.
Originally Posted by ezss
JD says things break, that just how it goes. Hes had people put $30k into a motor, and it breaks. He will work with me a little on the price, but somehow it still comes out to the same price or gets to be more every time we talk. There would be no warranty. It is roughly $5k to fix, probably a bit more, and that + $1000 for JE rods, price of stroker (i would get the 4" eagle at $820 from spohn), and price of any further machining of block needed to upgrade me to a 427. The block is honed a tenth, which would make it a 4.135" bore instead of a 4.125". I guess that would technically make it like a 429.
Thats the deal on the table for me, it really hasnt changed. JD assures me that he will do a kick a** job, he cant realy speak to Joe's work before because he wasnt involved.
Thats the deal on the table for me, it really hasnt changed. JD assures me that he will do a kick a** job, he cant realy speak to Joe's work before because he wasnt involved.
Answer Nothing.
Take it to MTI or LPE or Futural etc if JPR/JD won't work out something that's fair to all parties.
As for JD he might need to read what Nipilli posted a few dozen times to get the picture.
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 12-05-2003 at 11:53 PM.
12-06-2003, 12:30 AM
#99
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Originally Posted by JPR
No Mike, Erics original install of his 388 was performed over 1 year ago.
JP.
JP.
Joe -- My initial deposit was sent in 10/11/02 for $2400. The remaining balance was paid 4/22/03, so actually it was april when the car was done. My initial dyno is posted at http://www24.brinkster.com/ezerner/b1camdyno.htm copy link and paste to browser). It clearly shows 4/22 as the date.
May 17th was american iron shootout 2. That is the first time I ran the car. Mikey from rapid, Jr camaro, and several others witnessed the car smoking badly at this time. I called you from the track, you said make sure it wasnt burnout smoke, it wasnt as confirmed by the two people above and the people at the timeslip booth.
From that point on I asked you to fix this problem. I came down to do cam install and oil converstion (that you said would fix the problem) on appointment at 8am saturday. I drove the 2 and half hours, getting up before 5am. There was no time for oil converstion, because some dude had thrown crap on your car and you spent like 40 minutes cleaning it while I was standing there, and we had to get over to JDs before he closed to dyno. We wont even talk about how I long I had to wait for you to wake up with me pounding on your door. You did this for minimal charge, however, which I appreciated. I was going to return that lunati cam, and yes I did get ripped off on it, but you said it would work fine. You said 240-244 range with under 600 lift would be fine, actually you told me to go look for a cam with these specs, and I did. i will forward you the email where you wrote that to me, if you want.
Car still smoking, and not making quite the power on the dyno we expected with this much bigger cam. You and tracy came by my house when you were up this way, and I said I really didnt care about the power as much as the smoking problem. We talked at length about this, so Im amazed you dont seem to be recalling this now.
You said it was the heads, valve seal problem, so we replaced the heads. You were again supposed do the oil convertion, but you forgot, somehow, even though I bothered you every few days about that. The job had to be hurried according to you to get me to SLP day. This was on friday 10/10, I took a bus 3 and half hours and had matt from my car club pick me up there and drive me to JDs to pick up the car. I am told by Eric white/merlin that apparently before your heads went on that it was noted that there was serious damage to my cylender walls and problems with my oil, yet the engine was still put back together and I was never notified.
All other changes were made with your approval. The injectors, read above, were done at JD's recommdation and you did not object, just said you didnt know.
What changes did I make without your approval? The injectors I have already explained. You did some really nice things for me, including pick me up from my house in my car. I know there is a guy in there that wants to help me out or work with me on this.
Im not going to deny I wanted a bit more power, your h/c A4 cars were making more peak hp than me, but that was alwasy secondary to getting the smoking car problem fixed.
12-06-2003, 01:59 AM
#100
is this an all forged bottom end? really takes me a lot to believe a forged rod streched from a 7000 rpm rev limiter tap and or muti taps.. the bottom line is that this motor had a problem from day one. never was taking care of. so it still reverts back to the builder.. but it is a machine. and everything can be perfect and it will still break