supernova1972

That makes no sense whatsoever. Your car having 325tq at 3500 and pulling to 6500 doesn't change the fact that peak power doesn't always win. And your original post here...

...where you are saying since he made more peak power, he should have won, shows you thought since he had more peak power, he should have won.

People jump on those who say peak power is best, beacause they are usually wrong. A set of heads that has way too big runners will make better peak but no low or mid, which is where you need it most, making a car a dyno queen.

Thanks for playing. Try to type easier to read paragraphs next time.

NAAllTheWay

in a m6 or even an a4 for that matter, when you shift you only land 1500-2000 rpm out from peak power....good luck having a car that peaks 40whp less (380 vs. 420, which was your claim)have an average higher power output from 5000-6500rpm....with weight, gear etc all being equal.....the only way you beat a 420hp car with your 380hp car is if the guy was an even worse driver than you are...thanks for playing you say?..the pleasure is all mine.

NAAllTheWay

by the way...you draw far too many conclusions from far too little words from me...over half of what you put in your last post had me sitting here shaking my head....pure assumptions on your part........"where you are saying since he made more peak power, he should have won, shows you thought since he had more peak power, he should have won." please copy and paiste where i said anything about PEAK power....thank you

SOMbitch

iTrader: (8)

Not always because you have to consider the whole combo. If the dog down low no bottom car that spins to 7-7200k has gears and a convertor with say a 5800K shift extension will win because that car will be in the sweet spot of the power band the whole race. Would it be fun streetcar like most of us want hell no. But it is basicly a race car and will whup *** at the track which is what it is setup to do.....

supernova1972

The post that started all this was talking about a street race from a dig and track racing. Gearing and weight being equal from a dig, a car with 280 tq at 3000 with peak hp of 420 will probably loose to a car that makes 330tq at 3000rpm with a peak of 380hp. Maybe trap lower on a track but probably have a better et, which is what street racing is about. Ive personally seen a MS3 loose to a 228r on the street, with both hooking decently on a stoplight to stop light. And either way you look at it, if he beat a similar car with 420whp with his 380hp, his mid range and low made up the differance.

An NAAlltheway, the 380whp and 420whp were obviously peak power numbers. How do you think they rate it?

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (8)

I had ported 241s, you have LS6 heads. I had a 221 duration .540 lift single pattern cam, which is still milder than yours. Also had an LS6 intake and the typical headers and single exhaust setup. I made 380rwhp, and at 3700lbs, went 11.3 @ 119 consistently. I've had SEVERAL personal friends, who are on this board, switch from Patriots to whatever else and go faster and quicker with no other changes.

Again, congratulations on your 12 second Patriot headed ride.

SOMbitch

iTrader: (8)

That's hauling *** for that setup...... Does that track run downhill????? J/K

NAAllTheWay

thank you, im happy to have your approval...because it means so much to me?....congradulations running an 11.3 in a 221/540cam and 241head car...no chance in hell at 3700 pounds unless you had a much larger stall than myself and a much bigger gear etc...which kind of unlevels the playing field and makes your comparison pretty much a toss out doesnt it? according to you im the stupid one here so why dont you enlighten me and find a way to explain how your comparison can prove your car is faster than mine because of the heads and heads alone?

NAAllTheWay

first i want to thank you for not being a D-bag for the entire paragraph you typed and actually proving yourself with intelligent statements...for that i will be respectful back...and share my opinion in a modest way....i could be wrong but basically what im trying to say is i see your point about the power comparison at low rpm being a huge deal...i agree with that, but imho you will only see 3000 rpm in one gear, the numbers up near peak power you will see 2-4 times in most cases, also in a street race(if thats what we are talking about) often times unless you prep the street or are running an AMAZING tire, you are going to be pedaling off of the lauch as is, so that extra 50lbs of torque at 3k i dont find as valuable as 40hp up top that you be full throttle through a couple gears...am i saying your incorrect? no...just another way to look at it. I am by no means undermining the value of low end power....to be honest i think that the two cars you compared would be a damn good race...and im glad we could get past the pissing match

BattleSausage

iTrader: (3)

I'm not going to get into a pissing match, just pass on my previous experience with Patriot. I decided to build the motor I had been dreaming of, so I saved and payed cash for everything required for the build. This was on a Mod Motor(yes I know it's not apples to apples in comparison), after all I wanted 1 of both my SS and a Moostang in my stable. TO BE FAIR, the heads were out of warranty, so I make no qualms about that first and foremost...now on to the story. I built the motor some 8 months after purchasing the heads(heads were one of the first things I purchased) and after a little over 5 months of pure excellence, I noticed a drop in power. I dropped the cradle and disassembled the top end to find a cracked lifter bore, well really there was no lifter bore as it was missing about ~40%(one side is unsupported for those that don't know). After further inspection and some research, I also discovered that 3 of the 4 valve guides were not set to the same height and had caused premature wear on the valve tips(which I assume cause the lifter bore to fatigue and crack under the increased strain) as well as 2 of the 4 springs were not supplying the advertised seat/open pressure. I thought no biggy, the folks at Patriot were great to deal with, this shouldn't be a problem. After all, I had dealt personally with them by driving to their facility in Al. since it was only an 1 1/2 hour drive. In the end, they expressed no remorse, denied the heads were sold that way and refused to help me in any way. I had to pay full price for a matching head for it's counterpart. I was probably one of the first few who had tried that recipe, and since then I have heard many(though some were second hand) reports of poor craftsmanship in Patriots line of heads. Is this still the case, I can't honestly answer that question...but would I do it all over again and go the cheap way out. HELL NO, believe you me! Better to be assured of what you are getting rather than worry down the road whether yours are the hit or miss of the batch.

Hell of a first post I know, sorry to make it so long but I wanted to be frank it my explanation. After all, long time lurker...first time poster ya know.

NAAllTheWay

see thats legitamate....an opinion based on fact i will never argue...I will be an advocate for patriot because they have done a good job for me and i have heard a lot of fantastic stories as far as customer service...but a fact base point being made, is a good way to make your point...i will say though that this is a bad experience for one person, and frankly, a legitamate one....but i have of them going above and beyond for a lot of people too...i think in the end, people who want to go with patriots should, and those people who dont, go elsewhere, bc they only person it effects, is the individual buyer. I just had a problem with people making aquisations (sp?) who have never run the product, and where trashing the patriot name from either stories they heard or just talking trash to talk trash with no facts....good post^^^^

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (8)

There have been probably hundreds of those types of posts here. It was a popular head long ago because they were cheap. Posts popped up left and right with poor performance, poor quality, etc. Most were deleted long ago when Patriot was a sponsor. Now, very few run them with good reason. Patriot is junk, regardless of who says so, or their reasons for it. And like I said earlier, I'm not dumb enough to put a set on anything I own. I did help a friend install his after repeatedly telling him not to buy them. The car never made the power it should, and didn't run worth a ****. He later traded those heads for a set of PRCs (nothing else done, just heads) and he picked up 6 mph.

Sprayed 99

iTrader: (14)

i'm not getting into a pissing match with anyone here just posting my results.


after speaking with gunnar about what would work well with my set up, he recommeded stage 2 243 castings with gold springs. with an ls6 intake, a beat trans and patriot stage 2's with stock valves i ran 11.5 @ 122 all motor and 10.33 @133 with a 200 hit. i had hundreds of passes on my heads and never once had a single issue related to them. the customer service with patriot and gunnar was exceptional. several others cars that friends of mine had used patriots with good results as well. just my .02 and first hand experiance with patriot.

XPTBSS

IT seems it comes down to personal preference with everyone. I think someone needs to take the time and do a comparison on the same car...same dyno in the same setup.

NAAllTheWay

it has been done...im a patriot fan but im still not going to sit here and lie about the results, ill be honest, just as a would expect somone to do on the other side of my arguement out of respect for me....the test was a stock ls1 with hooker longtube headers, twin straight pipes onto magnaflow mufflers...the patriots picked up 36 flywheel hp and i believe somethin like 32flywheel tq...the heads were patriot stage 2 64cc heads....they then tested the same motor with afr 205cc heads which picked up 51 flywheel hp and something like 42flywheel torque...this was done by a magazine which we can bet was a non-bias source...may i add they also mentioned the fact that this is the power pick up for this paticular setup, and different heads will make more power with different setups...and remember this test motor was with a stock cam....if you take a look at the power gains you can see on this paticular motor your better off with a different head than the patriot if your willing to spend the cash...im also not denying that afr will make more power no matter what the setup, yet the results will be different in one way or another...also remember that patriot does what they can with a STOCK casting...i dont care what the name of your company is...an aftermarket casting will always have more potential to make more power.....so the real question is what sounds like a better deal to you...spend about 1500 after tax and shipping and pick up 30.6/27.2 on a for the most part, stock ls1 or spend about 2500 after tax and shipping an pick up 44.2/35.7....this is with a 15% drivetrain loss as manuals are usually 10%-15% drivetrain loss and auto is about 15%-20% drivetrain loss....again i run patriots but the goal here was not to sway anyone either to or away from patriot...it was done to give accurate results on a test motor that the post aboveme was looking for....the end result has no clear cut better way to go...it is going to depend on the individual and how much they want to spend. Iwill say this though in efforts to make two points for patriot...if you are a street racer patriot is the way to go as you are going to have a better shot at the race you are looking for with 243 castings...you will have a better shot at making money with those patriots on account less educated people with think they are stock and even the more educated will not know they are ported...if your heads have afr or etp stamped on those people are going to want some lengths....I will also add that if you had a budget of anywhere between 1500 and 7500 dollars or more and you wanted to get your car down the track as fast as possible i would say the patriots again would be the way to go because that leaves you with an extra thousand bucks to pick up the 13.8hp and8 8.5ft pounds of tq your going to lose by going with the patriots...so if your on a budget i believe you will wind up with the faster car in the end if you just slap on the patriots....now it wouldnt be fair if i did not stick up for the more expensive heads such as afr/etp, edelbrock and trickflow....these heads are a much better choice if you have the cash and you want the fastest car possible without budget being a concern. these heads WILL get you down the track faster if you have the money to buy them....and i would venture a guess they also have a higher percent of a re-sale value in conjuction with what you spent on the brand new set...anyone who says there is a factual right head to always buy is wrong....It depends on the individual buyer and they way he wants to go...$1 per hp patriot wins, hp vs. hp and your better off goin aftermarket casing

NAAllTheWay

sorry for the novel, and not hiring an editor to boot

00MaroonZ28

iTrader: (3)

I've been happy with my patriot heads.